Positive Aspects of Atheism?

[Charlemagne_III]

So, according to you, we really ARE just puppets on a string, and without God’s constant supervision we would be just “beasts”. So much for “free will”. Of course you know (or should know) that those beasts in the jungle (read up on the behavior of elephants, for example) also show compassion and are helpful to others. Obviously those acts are also sign of God’s “mercy”.

Welcome to the Zoo of God, where God is the puppet master, and we all play out his script. Nope, my friend, God leaves us alone, if we are good, we deserve a reward, and when we are bad, we deserve a punishment (commensurate to the act, which precludes eternal suffering). THAT is what Catholicism teaches, not that watered down nonsense you talk about.

And that brings us back to the question: “why are works insufficient?”.

Again, because they signify a puffed up opinion of ourselves and ingratitude to the Creator.

We are free to choose heaven or hell, so we are hardly puppets.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So, according to you, we really ARE just puppets on a string, and without God’s constant supervision we would be just “beasts”. So much for “free will”. Of course you know (or should know) that those beasts in the jungle (read up on the behavior of elephants, for example) also show compassion and are helpful to others. Obviously those acts are also sign of God’s “mercy”.

Welcome to the Zoo of God, where God is the puppet master, and we all play out his script. Nope, my friend, God leaves us alone, if we are good, we deserve a reward, and when we are bad, we deserve a punishment (commensurate to the act, which precludes eternal suffering). THAT is what Catholicism teaches, not that watered down nonsense you talk about.

And that brings us back to the question: “why are works insufficient?”.

Somehow, you just don’t come across as a positive atheist.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Somehow, you just don’t come across as a positive atheist.

What would be a “positive” atheist?

Again, because they signify a puffed up opinion of ourselves and ingratitude to the Creator.

Actually, it shows “taking responsibility” for our actions. You know, that is what adults do.

We are free to choose heaven or hell, so we are hardly puppets.

No, we cannot choose heaven, if “works” alone are insufficient.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Actually, it shows “taking responsibility” for our actions. You know, that is what adults do.

No, we cannot choose heaven, if “works” alone are insufficient.

Atheists are materialists, and therefore determinists, and so cannot be responsible for their actions.

Only believers believe they are free and responsible.

Works alone are insufficient, and therefore we choose hell.

Anywhere we end up we have chosen.

We can’t say the devil or our genes made us go there.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

What would be a “positive” atheist?

Actually, it shows “taking responsibility” for our actions. You know, that is what adults do.

No, we cannot choose heaven, if “works” alone are insufficient.

Who told you works alone are sufficient? You can’t earn your way to heaven. It is only by the grace of God, which you are free to choose or refuse.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Atheists are materialists, and therefore determinists, and so cannot be responsible for their actions.

Who told you this nonsense?

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Who told you works alone are sufficient? You can’t earn your way to heaven.

Reason. The church asserts that non-Catholics - even atheists can get to heaven. Since atheists have no faith, they can only get to heaven by “works”. So something is amiss. Either atheists CAN get to heaven, and that can only happen by works, without faith. Or atheists are “fire-fodder” in hell. You cannot have it both ways. Contrary to what some nincompoops assert, the world is filled to the brim with “either-or” dichotomies, and no sane Catholic says everything is “both-and”.

It is only by the grace of God, which you are free to choose or refuse.

I check my mail every day, and God’s “grace” never shoes up.

 

[Abba]

Reason. The church asserts that non-Catholics - even atheists can get to heaven. Since atheists have no faith, they can only get to heaven by “works”. So something is amiss. Either atheists CAN get to heaven, and that can only happen by works, without faith. Or atheists are “fire-fodder” in hell. You cannot have it both ways. Contrary to what some nincompoops assert, the world is filled to the brim with “either-or” dichotomies, and no sane Catholic says everything is “both-and”.

It’s true, atheists and other non-Catholics can be saved. But, their salvation is thru Christ. In the Book of Romans, Paul tells us that people who do the law who are not under the law because it is now written in their hearts will be saved, But, it is God who gives them the grace to follow their conscience. vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PYO.HTM

This may help:
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/are-good-works-necessary-for-salvation

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

It’s true, atheists and other non-Catholics can be saved. But, their salvation is thru Christ.

You mean, if they become Catholics or some kind of Christian? Or can they be “saved” EVEN if they are not baptized, do not go to confession, avoid the clergy and the church… but otherwise they are kind, loving and helpful people. No faith, expressed or implied. No absolution is asked for or given.

This may help:
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/are-good-works-necessary-for-salvation

It does not help. I am not asking if good works are necessary (obviously they are), I am asking if good works are sufficient?

 

[TheCuriousCat]

Atheism has no positive aspects. I don’t do, or aspire, or plan based on my atheism. All it means is that I don’t believe in a god or gods.

I don’t see any positive aspects to it any more than I see positive aspects to my disbelief in fairies, my lack of interest in hockey, or my in the fact I don’t collect stamps. The only possible benefit I see to losing my faith was that I didn’t feel the same cognitive dissonance that I felt before.

On the other hand, there are no negatives either.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Reason. The church asserts that non-Catholics - even atheists can get to heaven. Since atheists have no faith, they can only get to heaven by “works”. So something is amiss. Either atheists CAN get to heaven, and that can only happen by works, without faith. Or atheists are “fire-fodder” in hell. You cannot have it both ways. Contrary to what some nincompoops assert, the world is filled to the brim with “either-or” dichotomies, and no sane Catholic says everything is “both-and”.

I check my mail every day, and God’s “grace” never shoes up.

I never heard that someone who rejects God can get to heaven. Where did you hear that? I heard that someone who has never heard about Christ but is a good person can get to heaven. You have rejected God.

Grace is will come when you humble yourself to God. Not before.

(And I don’t know anything about your shoes!)

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Atheism has no positive aspects. I don’t do, or aspire, or plan based on my atheism. All it means is that I don’t believe in a god or gods.

I don’t see any positive aspects to it any more than I see positive aspects to my disbelief in fairies, my lack of interest in hockey, or my in the fact I don’t collect stamps. The only possible benefit I see to losing my faith was that I didn’t feel the same cognitive dissonance that I felt before.

On the other hand, there are no negatives either.

Well happy humdrum life.

 

[TheCuriousCat]

Well happy humdrum life.

Humdrum? Just because I don’t share the same interests as you hardly makes my life humdrum. I honestly wish my life were a lot more humdrum than it is.

Glad you find your life so exciting.

 

[Abba]

You mean, if they become Catholics or some kind of Christian? Or can they be “saved” EVEN if they are not baptized, do not go to confession, avoid the clergy and the church… but otherwise they are kind, loving and helpful people. No faith, expressed or implied. No absolution is asked for or given.

All.

We are called not to judge. People misuse the biblical quotes regarding not judging others when they are rectified, but these quotes that correspond to judging others do not mean do not rectify. They do mean, do not judge a person. So, I cannot judge the soul of an atheist. I can try to fight his/hers obstinance etc… or guide them intellectually/spiritually to recognize the existence of God, as all the Catholics who participate on this sub-forum diligently do, but I cannot judge the soul.

So, just because atheists (and non-Catholics in general) can be saved, it does not mean that you (or any particular) will be saved. It can get a little complex rather quickly. Your salvation is between you and God. Only God can judge you as He is all knowing. A person cannot judge another as we do not know the short-comings, reasons, etc… for a person"s behavior etc…

So, there may be an atheist who is an atheist but is so, even after being given ample opportunities to recognize the existence of God but has turned away for reasons foreign to the lack of sufficient reasons to recognize His existence. It also takes two to tango, when a person does good works this brings him closer to God and when a person does evil works, this distances him/her from God. So, on the one hand, you have to seek and on the other, you love your neighbors as yourself.

But, those who are obstinant and do evil, have a harder time if ever they do - at recognizing God exists. Their evil actions serve as a black cloth over their eyes and they are blinded. Moses had to take his sandals off when he approached God, we must do similarly in whatever measure we can to come close to God if only sufficiently to recognize He exists. We need to do away with pride, narcissism, self-love, etc…

Now, I am not saying that those who know God exists are sweet little angels and that is the reason they can come to recognize His existence. Some believers were shown the way to God by their parents and others like Einstein come to recognize it on their own, sometimes the experience is like as if hit by lightening all the knowledge comes together when a newly added piece of the puzzle is presented. Einstein said that (and I paraphrase) he could not but believe God exists after studying the universe he recognized that it could not be an accident but that’s as far as he got, he could not come to understand that God would want to be bothered with creatures so he did not believe in a personal God.

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

PASTORAL CONSTITUTION
ON THE CHURCH IN THE
MODERN WORLD
GAUDIUM ET SPES
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

Luke 12:48
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Why did you use the word “avoid”?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Humdrum? Just because I don’t share the same interests as you hardly makes my life humdrum. I honestly wish my life were a lot more humdrum than it is.

Glad you find your life so exciting.

What I mean is you are neither positive nor negative. That sounds lukewarm to me.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Who told you this nonsense?

Atheists told me this nonsense.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The church asserts that non-Catholics - even atheists can get to heaven.

I must have missed that in the Catechism. Could you please cite the passage.

Atheists could get to heaven, if they confess their sins and seek forgiveness.

But the last time I looked atheists do not believe in sins nor do they believe there is a God that gives forgiveness.

I guess it would be neat from the atheist’s point of view if he could sin all he liked and expect heaven as his reward, but I don’t believe that’s how we are assured it works.

Still waiting for a list of how atheism is positive.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

I never heard that someone who rejects God can get to heaven. Where did you hear that? I heard that someone who has never heard about Christ but is a good person can get to heaven. You have rejected God.

Not true. Before I could “reject” God, I would need to be assured that God exists. To be explicit, I did not reject God. I reject the idea that there is a God. Not the same thing, if you get my drift. Only a Christian can reject God.

Grace is will come when you humble yourself to God. Not before.

Ahh. So first I need to know that God exists, and THEN God will send me some “grace”… But without this “grace” I cannot know that God exists… What a beautiful example of “Catch 22”.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Atheists could get to heaven, if they confess their sins and seek forgiveness.

But the last time I looked atheists do not believe in sins nor do they believe there is a God that gives forgiveness.

So that is it. Atheists are condemned to eternal fire for NOT believing. Just don’t forget to shout it from the rooftops. What a wonderful piece of news.

I guess it would be neat from the atheist’s point of view if he could sin all he liked and expect heaven as his reward, but I don’t believe that’s how we are assured it works.

That is what you guys believe. Sin as much as you want, but quickly repent, ask for absolution… rinse and repeat. How convenient!

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Atheists told me this nonsense.

Names and citations please.