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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
But these are not in question. What is the (assumed) fate of those, who HAVE heard the gospel, but do not believe it. Are they automatically condemned, even if they lead a kind, loving helpful life? (BTW, I especially like the “may” - highlighted above. Strange that the church is ignorant about this sizable segment of the population.)
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TheCuriousCat
Guest
Do you believe in the Easter Bunny? How does this positively impact your life? How about phlogistan? Does your disbelief make your life wonderful and rich?
Does not collecting stamps brighten your day? Did you see My Gal Friday? If not, do you think it has made you a better person? Do you think your life is far worse for not having met Jane Callaghan-Best? Or do you look on it as a positive you never met her? No opinion? That seems pretty lukewarm to me.
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Abba
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Well, to me, it is as clear as daylight this applies to atheists. The problem is that we are bunching together a bunch of people that are different in degrees, foundations, reasons, experiences, history, influences, convictions, causes,magnitude, ignorance etc… for their atheism. Maybe someday, someone will come up with a way of distinguishing them in different groups and they can be better served.
I think it took courage for Pope Francis to say what is already there. Maybe, courage is not the word, but, I think he recognized that some people would be blown away when they learned that he said atheists can be saved. But, in fact, it is everywhere - including in Romans.
What I can tell that it is being said is that salvation is opened to the atheists, not that they will be saved. So, it’s not a good spot to get comfortable in. Besides, you want to go to the banquet and that is where these Catholics who participate and are arguing back and forth with you want to take you.
If you are really concerned about your salvation, I would say, continue to try to learn that God exists for the rest of your existence and this with an open heart. If you do not do it sincerely, you can never claim that you really tried.
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Qoeleth
Guest
There is such a thing as an ‘anonymous Christian’. If the atheist had heard the Gospel, and consistently tried to act in accordance with Gospel principles (charity, compassion, purity, etc.), maybe their heart and soul believes in the Gospel, even if their mind cannot accept it (for whatever reason- maybe a bad experience of clergy or something, or being raised in some other tradition). But, in fact, they might subconsciously be ‘believers’.
Also, the fate of a soul can never be determined by a third party. Certainly, in the throes of death, particular insights about oneself, about life, about reality come forth. This may lead to an ultimate conversion, even after the final lapse into unconsciousness.
And there is also Purgatory- no one can be atheist in Purgatory. Perhaps, in the scale of things, failing consciously to believe in God (if it is the result of a genuine intellectual error), will be considered a fairly minor fault. On the other hand, adhering to belief in God, even when there seems to be little or even contrary evidence, will certainly be counted as a great virtue.
Furthermore, in the next life, all ‘creeds’ will be superseded, since all our ‘beliefs’ are limited to what human words and concept can formulate. It will be a case of beholding God as He is. Of the three theological virtues, in Heaven, faith is no longer applicable (since all will be clear), hope will no longer make sense (since all will be fulfilled), but only love will remain.
So, no, we cannot judge.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
It seems very clear to me that you are rejecting the whole idea of God, (and rather bitterly too, I might add).
By the way, not only Christians believe in God. Most people in most religions believe in God - the creator and Lord of heaven and earth. They just haven’t been taught the incarnation of Jesus Christ.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
The quotes you cited do not tell us that atheists go to heaven.
On the other hand, Scripture clearly refutes your view that ATHEISTS GO TO HEAVEN.
“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16
“Fools say in their hearts, ‘There is no God.’” Psalms 14:1
“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.”
2nd Timothy 2:11-12
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.” Matthew 22: 37-40
So again, since you present yourself as an authority on all things Catholic, would you please cite the Catechism where it says atheists go to heaven by their works without faith?
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
No one says we judge. God judges, but we have to have some idea of the basis upon which God judges so that we can act in such a way as to be redeemed from our sins.
Bottom line is that atheists do not confess their sins because they do not believe in sin, nor do they ask forgiveness because they believe there is no one who forgives.
My God, if such people go to heaven, why not be an atheist?
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Abba
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Ha, ha. I was waiting for this post from you.The quotes you cited do not tell us that atheists go to heaven.
On the other hand, Scripture clearly refutes your view that ATHEISTS GO TO HEAVEN.
“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16
“Fools say in their hearts, ‘There is no God.’” Psalms 14:1
“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.”
2nd Timothy 2:11-12
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.” Matthew 22: 37-40
So again, since you present yourself as an authority on all things Catholic, would you please cite the Catechism where it says atheists go to heaven by their works without faith?
Catholics are going around vehemently criticizing Pope Francis and accusing him of not being a good Catholic and misguiding etc., because he said that salvation is open to atheists. People accuse him of being a liberal Pope and watering down the faith. In fact, these accusations are not true at all. I don’t recall Jesus ever saying that being a shepherd is an easy job. He did tell Peter he will be taken where he will not want to go. The shepherd tells the flock, bear to the right here a little, but, there are members of the flock who complain and say; “Hey, it has always seemed to me that we have been following the north star, if we bear to the right we would no longer be following the north star directly. This shepherd doesn’t know what he is doing. He is not a good shepherd, he is going to mislead us.”
Imagine that you are shepherding a flock of sheep. When you are taking then up a hill and you are half way there, they pretty much stay in route because they know the direction is up and the same when they are midway down. They pretty much know the direction and just keep going. But, sometimes, when you get to the bottom, they become a little disoriented, so if that is not the destination, the shepherd has to get their attention and get them going in the right direction. That’s where the priests come in who can get in front of them and say; hey, hey, hey - that way, come on.
What I am doing is following without rebellion nor objection. But, this is easy for me because I see how it makes sense and this has always made sense to me when I have read Paul’s Letter to the Romans. So, when Pope Francis says that salvation is open to the atheists I can’t but agree. It actually feels like a relief. I thank him for coming out and explicitly stating it. I simply see the direction and am not rebelling and have chosen to follow the course.
Now, the problem some Catholics are having is that they were taught that salvation is only thru the Catholic Church. But, it still is and always will be and it is thru Our Lord Jesus Christ and always will be. Jesus is our Savior and Salvation is thru Him and His Church only.
To me, the atheists are our Poorest of the Poor Spiritually. I do think it is made more difficult to serve non-believers when we bunch them all together as we all tend to do. I for instance, would be more lenient with a born atheist if so distinguished and categorized. It would follow, I would be harsher on Luther than those Protestants who were born Protestants and raised in that faith.
I was blessed with being born a Catholic and as such in the fullness of the faith. The Church was my spiritual cocoon. I walked away from it all though. I have loved Plato from day one and loved to read Greco-Roman antiquity and the stuff of the ancient Egyptians. All on my own. I found someone’s abandoned old library in the basement when I was a kid and I just loved the stuff and kept going. But, I wondered once, after enjoying the world of the Gods of the Greeks and Romans and appreciating the faith of the Egyptians; how about if the same will happen to the Catholic Church. Will a thousand years from now or two or three people will speak of the Catholic faith as an archaic belief of the pass as they now do of the Greek gods? That’s when I walked away from the Church and decided to find out for myself and started from scratch. I personally concluded God does exist and the Catholic Church is the Church our Lord Jesus established and made my way right back. But, it’s harder for the born-atheists, many of whom have been indoctrinated with the modern inclination of making science and human knowledge their God.
Regarding, me knowing all things Catholic. Not at all Charlemagne III. I am learning, but, I do understand somethings. My understanding is not contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I can turn my back on an atheists due to his obstinate narcissistic disposition and consider he is damned because I told him about Jesus but he did not listened and received Him. But, things are not so simple.
Peace.
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Abba
Guest
There are atheists and then there are atheists. That said, there are atheists who have not chosen to be atheists but were either born that way or became such. It’s like they are suffering from some mental, intellectual and spiritual stupor. It’s like they are trapped in an intellectual maze and what we can do is try to help them get out of it. It’s like Sisyphus, they go so far only to come down again and start over and are trapped in this process. They are victims of their own mental process.
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It’s true, we can clearly see that with some the main problem is pride and self-love, but we need to help them put that aside, at least enough so they can see and then they can take it from there. We can help them as we do children to get on their feet and start walking.
http://coconutheadsets.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/sisyphus.jpg
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Vera_Ljuba
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Atheism only means the lack of belief in a god or gods. Obviously atheists come in all sorts of flavors, some good, some bad - just like the believers. I only talk about the ones, who are indistinguishable from the believers in their interpersonal relationships.
From whom could I learn? Not from other people, I hope. They are equally ignorant, even if they do not admit it. And God is notoriously gun-shy. No matter how hard and how long you try to get an “audition”, it will not be granted - in THIS life.
This little “trick” is called conversion via redefinition. Obviously there are many things in the gospels which are praiseworthy, and which to be followed regardless of the worldview of the person. Also obviously these are all of secular origin - like the Golden Rule(s). Personally, I never experienced anything improper from any member of the clergy. All of them were excellent, praiseworthy, loving people, not just in their words, but in their actions, too. They had nothing to do with my process of losing my faith.
I would not know about the “bitter” part. But I do reject the idea of the omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent, loving, caring God… just like I reject the idea of a married bachelor.
The whole original sin and salvation concept is believed by Christians only.
Sure, but that does NOT prevent them from leading a very good, loving and caring life. And if they do, if their interpersonal relationships cannot be distinguished from the very good Christians, why does God condemn them to everlasting torture due to simply the lack of faith. Where is “justice” here?
Why not, indeed?
If loving, caring behavior would be enough, why put up with all those restrictions which have nothing to do human behavior? Are you scared that you might be “forced” to share eternity with some abominable heathens?Is this a “charitable” way to refer to others? “Stupor”?
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Abba
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Sorry.
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Abba
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I think it is important and very worthwhile to identify the origin, root, foundation, cause etc… of an individual’s atheism. The origin and the timing are two aspects I personally consider important to distinguish. I don’t know what you mean about the distinction in interpersonal relations nor relations with whom. I think it is more productive to address a person’s atheism on an individual basis versus as a member of some general label.
May the peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. And, May Our Blessed Mother Mary take you to her son.
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Abba
Guest
We all are to different degrees in different areas of faith, theology etc… Be patient. I know it is not easy. It is frustrating and painful at times. Uncertainty is a tremendously difficult human experience. It can get to as if you are in a frying pan. That’s the reason Shakespeare put in the mouth of Othello - Go! And make my love a whore! He was being eaten away by uncertainty that he no longer cared if his beloved Desdemona was faithful or not, only getting rid of uncertainty began to matter. So, how can he find certainty? If she was made a whore, then he would know for sure.
One thing that may help to endure uncertainty is to pray to that Unknown God if and just in case He exists. Just through a little prayer out there if only for the benefit it may bring to you in doing so.
Don’t be so sure about that, He may surprise you.
But, you need to knock with an open heart. He surprised me when I was a child. I looked up at the steeple of the church, right at the cross and I said to Him (in my mind), if you really do exist… then do this and if you do…I will always believe in you. I promise. And, He did it right then and there. I think of it as that God played with me when I was a child. But, you don’t need a miracle necessarily. God has His ways and they are beautiful.It’s not that He is gun-shy. But, that is a big topic.
May the peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. And, May Our Blessed Mother Mary take you to her son.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Of course salvation is open to atheists, but only if atheists are open to salvation.So, when Pope Francis says that salvation is open to the atheists I can’t but agree. It actually feels like a relief. I thank him for coming out and explicitly stating it.
Peace.
Francis often creates ambiguous statements that never quite seem to align with traditional Catholic theology. Somebody else always has to come along and “clarify” what he meant.
But we don’t have to clarify what Jesus meant when he said:
“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16
I just wish, for the sake of clarity, that you would comment on what Jesus said and see if you can find a loophole for atheists.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
But the “very good, loving, and caring” life does not apply to the God who created us?
God does not condemn, we condemn ourselves, because we are free to accept him or reject him. You often speak in this forum of God as a cruel and tyrannical being. How cruel to yourself and how tyrannical over God can you be by rejecting him?
God is not a tyrant. If you want nothing to do with him by your atheism, he will not force himself on you because he respects your freedom. So if and when the day comes you along with the rest of us are to be judged, you will have to answer the question from God that we all have to answer:
“Did you love me? Do you prefer never knowing me to knowing and loving me? So be it.”
And that’s how we might arrive at the hell of our own choosing.
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Vera_Ljuba
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Last time I checked, God was sovereign, nothing we do can affect him.
SIGH How many times do I have to repeat that I do NOT reject God. I reject what certain fallible people SAY about God, because their testimony simply does not add up. And before you will try to say that I accuse the apologists of being “liars”, I do not. They are simply fallible humans who are mistaken.
My answer would be simple: I asked (not “demanded”) to see you, to have a conversation with you, and you NEVER responded. How could I have “loved” you. if you were hiding above the clouds?God is not a tyrant. If you want nothing to do with him by your atheism, he will not force himself on you because he respects your freedom. So if and when the day comes you along with the rest of us are to be judged, you will have to answer the question from God that we all have to answer:
“Did you love me? Do you prefer never knowing me to knowing and loving me? So be it.”
And that’s how we might arrive at the hell of our own choosing.
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Abba
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My way or the highway.
What about giving God a chance, after all, He is God. Maybe you can try to figure out what is He’s way and try to take that and see what happens?
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
so do you believe in God or not? This is a very confusing post.!
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
An atheist is a person who does not believe in God and does not want God in their life. In a way they are already in Hell, because they do not want to be near God. The definition of Hell is the absence of God and how true it is!
Heaven will be an eternity of glorifying our beautiful and perfect and good God.
An atheist always can come around and believe in God but If one remains an atheist until death, they will go to Hell because they are choosing to. Although this may seem a bit harsh, you must ask this question “Do you think atheists would even like to be in Heaven, where they must spend an eternity with God, when they wanted to live without God for their entire lives?”
Heaven will be an eternity of glorifying our beautiful and perfect and good God.
An atheist always can come around and believe in God but If one remains an atheist until death, they will go to Hell because they are choosing to. Although this may seem a bit harsh, you must ask this question “Do you think atheists would even like to be in Heaven, where they must spend an eternity with God, when they wanted to live without God for their entire lives?”
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