Praise and Worship choruses during Mass

[VociMike]

Just a quick question. Someone mentioned that Latin should still be heard in Churches today. I am wondering why. I don’t recall the apostles worshipping in Latin (although I may be mistaken). I can understand if some PREFER Latin for a sense of tradition, but certainly I cannot see any biblical basis for requiring it. Can someone explain this to me?

In the first place, let’s agree as Catholics that the Church has the authority to speak for God in matters of liturgy. If we don’t agree on that then we can’t go forward at all.

Now, why Latin? And in particular, why Latin music, since this thread is about music? To begin with, Latin is the universal language of the Church. It was not so 1800 years ago, but it has been so for the vast majority of the time that the Church has existed. It is universal not only in space (geographically speaking) but also in time (it is the language our Catholic ancestors worshipped in). This is one reason why Pope Paul VI in 1974 produced a small collection of Gregorian chant (all Gregorian chant is in Latin) that he desired every Catholic to know and to be able to sing. This collection, called “Jubilate Deo”, has, sadly, been mostly ignored for the 34 years it has been out.

In the same vein, Latin is inextricably linked with Gregorian chant, which the Church has declared to be the supreme model and permanent standard of her liturgical music, and against which all other music is to be measured. Latin is also the most common language used in that other form of liturgical music which the Church holds up to special praise, sacred polyphony. So if you want to hear and to sing the liturgical music that the Church singles out as exemplary, you will be hearing and singing music in Latin.

Finally, it’s worth looking at what happened when the vernacular wave swept over the Church. What it did to the music was to create hundreds of small musical islands where there was once one giant, unified continent. Some 1800 years of exceptional music from throughout the Catholic world was abandoned, and into the enormous vacuum that was thus created flowed a snapshot of music from one brief time, and from many fragmented languages and cultures. The universality of Latin was gone in an instant, much like the story of the Tower of Babel. To fill this huge void, just about any music was good enough. There was no time to choose the best, as time had done regarding the music in Latin. So what we got was music that was very dated (c.1965 to 1995), and ranged in quality from average to scraping the barrel. Ask yourself this, and answer truthfully - which of the contemporary Catholic music heard in most churches will be sung and esteemed 500 or 1000 years from now?

The situation is similar to what would happen if all the world’s great literature was destroyed, and there was a mad 40 year rush to create a whole new body of literature. Do you think the new stuff would be as good and as universal as all that was destroyed? And the situation with Catholic music is much worse, because compared to the number of good writers in every generation, hardly anybody wants to compose Catholic liturgical music, so the pool of talent is vastly smaller. In the past nearly every great composer wrote at least some Catholic sacred music, but that is certainly not the case today.

Personally I doubt that a vernacular music tradition can ever be as good and as universal as the Latin musical tradition (though the Church of England has created much beautiful sacred music in English, music which is hardly ever heard in Catholic churches). Musical styles change too fast now, and the languages themselves change too fast as well. I think our contemporary vernacular music is doomed to be “flash in the pan” music forevermore, except for those rare occasions when composers “steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae” make a conscious effort to write music that is as beautiful, as artful and as universal as the models held up by the Church.

It is worth noting that no Church Council in history was as supportive of Gregorian chant as was Vatican II. Vatican II practically hit us on the head with a 2x4 regarding chant and sacred polyphony, and yet somehow we conveniently didn’t listen. And thus millions of Catholics have had their birthright witheld from them. And that’s just wrong.

 

[MusicMan]

I am worried that we’re putting the cart before the horse here. I am still very concerned that the number one reason we find ourselves going in the wrong direction is failure to develop appropriate musical talent.

We seem to expect some kind of upheaval, rather than a steady, carefully calculated return.

How many of you took time today to encourage a high school aged piano player to play at Mass?

How many of you took time today to encourage a high school piano player to expand their skills and begin study of organ?

How many of you took time today to encourage a high school vocalist to sing at church, not fronting the P&W Band, but rather in the traditional choir?

How many of you gave some thought to how your parish could fund a program to encourage young musicians to study traditional music so they could help lead the next generation in worshipping God through it?

How many of you looked with disdain at your Gather Comprehensive Hymnals, and then did something to try to get the Adoremus Hymnal added to your parish?

It’s all well and good that Rome and the USCCB will be promulgating a document regarding music in the US. If we’re not preparing our parishes to have musicians to implement the rubrics, it’s not going to matter.

Recruit the young musicians. Encourage them. Believe in them.

 

[Sarabande]

Have you ever heard the jews sing? Does it sound like any thing you know or listen to? if we are to go by jewish hymnals believe me,thats not your idea of hymns.

My former voice teacher is Jewish. In addition to being a world-class, international opera singer, she also became a Jewish cantor when she retired from the opera stage. She was trained by a renowned Jewish cantor in how to do the chants properly, etc. A cantor’s responsibility is much more detailed and in some ways held with more importance than a Catholic cantor. The cantor in the Jewish tradition also assists in children’s bar-bat mitvahs, especially in terms of chanting Hebrew, etc. They do all the chants and lead the hymns AND many are trained very well.

Anyway, that’s just background. While I studied with her, once in a while I’d sit in on her work with the children and also sat in on services. Although some hymns are different from what we are used to hearing, others are similar (in the more traditional fashion) and the chants are also similar and very beautiful. She actually chanted the Prayer of the Faithful at my wedding in the Jewish style.

What I find so fascinating and beautiful is the fact that the Jewish people (at least in Conservative Judaism - I’ve never attended and Orthodox service which I would imagine was even more so, and from what I’m told by her, my cousin who is Jewish and other Jewish friends, Reform Judaism is basically almost anything goes. I think they’ve got guitar services as well with secular-sounding music) has kept their long-standing tradition of sacred music and chant. They never broke the system of passing chant, Hebrew and the importance of chant/appropriate sacred music from generation to generation.

For most Catholics, it will be more of challenge to rebuild that bridge of instilling and passing down tradition which was broken for a few decades. As MusicMan said, we need to develop the musical talent of our Catholics. Standards have to be kept up. Funds need to be established to encourage this.

Not that it can’t be done, but it will take time. It actually might take another 40 years to get it all straightened out by which time my generation and younger will be the old gals and guys passing on the torch to the next generation. I was so very fortunate to have had a mentor in both my former teacher (who was actually a proponent of appropriate sacred music in the Church) and especially by my older organist friend. They both encouraged me and helped in my musical and liturgical education and growth. Had I not had my organist friend who sent me along this path and then had I not studied abroad where the music liturgy was superior to here in the States at the time and just totally opened my mind and soul to something so much more profound and grounding, I probably would have just flowed with the status quo. I hope that I can become a mentor as well when I am older.

Complaining (although helpful in getting things out of our systems sometimes) will get us no where in terms of making a change and bringing us back. Action and involvement is key for ourselves and for others around us.

 

[tonia]

Once again i thank you music man.
This seem to me like a case of people not realising that musical talent is not something that was just for the likes of mozart and co.
There are a lot of VERY talented young people who are willing and ready to contribute to the musical upliftment of the church.Alas! we have some people say they are singing trash.

Let me tell tou somehting that happended in my college. the catholic community of my country decided to hold a competition for all catholic parishes in all the college. the aim of the competition was to bring about new songs for the mass.they were asked to compose and write the music notes by themselves, even for the instrument s they would be given.Also they were asked to write one in the language of the province where there college is situated(am from Nigeria).my school happened to be the venue.I tell you it was an explosive event. the voices, the music, it was heavenly. I cant tell you how many people converted or began to respect the catholic church since then. My school came first, but that is not the point. the point is that, what these choristers were able to do with the help of their musical instructors was awesome. the instructor for my school was an irish rev. father and he did a wonderful job. there is talent in the youngsters of today and they should be encouraged.When am very low and out, i love to listen to the gregorian chant, it has a way of lifting me up, but i also know that the same is true of praise and worship.I know hymns and praise and worship can co-habit. By the way, i do not enjoy metal music or death metal as someone said, i was misunderstood.

I am worried that we’re putting the cart before the horse here. I am still very concerned that the number one reason we find ourselves going in the wrong direction is failure to develop appropriate musical talent.

We seem to expect some kind of upheaval, rather than a steady, carefully calculated return.

How many of you took time today to encourage a high school aged piano player to play at Mass?

How many of you took time today to encourage a high school piano player to expand their skills and begin study of organ?

How many of you took time today to encourage a high school vocalist to sing at church, not fronting the P&W Band, but rather in the traditional choir?

How many of you gave some thought to how your parish could fund a program to encourage young musicians to study traditional music so they could help lead the next generation in worshipping God through it?

How many of you looked with disdain at your Gather Comprehensive Hymnals, and then did something to try to get the Adoremus Hymnal added to your parish?

It’s all well and good that Rome and the USCCB will be promulgating a document regarding music in the US. If we’re not preparing our parishes to have musicians to implement the rubrics, it’s not going to matter.

Recruit the young musicians. Encourage them. Believe in them.

 

[created2bholy]

I just have a thought/question I’d like to add:

I don’t understand why many on this thread automatically equate “praise and worship music” with “entertainment.” In my own experience, I have experienced traditional hymns that have inspired me to worship, and I have experienced contemporary praise music that has inspired me to worship. The Mass and worship is about God–yes–but why do we have music at all in the Mass? Because it is an instrument, a vehicle, for helping us his people to worship Him with our whole selves, body and soul. Music is meant to facilitate worship, which ultimately depends on our own response to God’s love–we can cooperate with it or not. Much depends on the heart of the worshiper.

Contemporary or traditional music can lead people to genuine worship of God, and contemporary or traditional music can become a performance. Abuses/misuses of either can occur. A heartfelt worship song that becomes a showy, self-focused voice-solo is wrong and not helpful to worship, as is a joyful, traditional entrance hymn on the organ that is not played well and sounds more like a dirge, with no one in the congregation singing along. Music should foster reverence, worship, and participation, and I’ve experienced both types of music facilitating that.

There is something about the music of the centuries (chant) that ties us into the Church’s tradition. And there is something about the praise music that is enabling people to encounter God in a fresh, dramatic way. I think both have value and that’s why the Church in her wisdom, especially in our country, has made allowance for both, while giving proper honor to the music of the centuries.

I’m involved in music ministry and have seen people have a deep encounter with the God of Sinai through heartfelt praise and worship music. I know that many people experience God’s majesty through hymns and traditional chant.

I hope these thoughts are helpful.

 

[tonia]

All am going to say is THANK YOU SO MUCH.! finally someone apart from myself and music man seem to get all this.thats just what i ve been trying to say, irrespective of the time(century,year,period) thay all can help in connecting with the spiritual realm. They have helped me that i can testify to, both hymns and worship songs. There is nothing like good old hymns during lent and xmas, they, also i find that during days like the new year when i realise the miracle of another year and how many people didnt live to see another year, i just want to sing worship songs. Well thats how its done in my parish. Before and after the mass we sing praise worship and hymns for a couple of hours. Believe me, u will feel the presence of God in the atmosphere.

I just have a thought/question I’d like to add:

I don’t understand why many on this thread automatically equate “praise and worship music” with “entertainment.” In my own experience, I have experienced traditional hymns that have inspired me to worship, and I have experienced contemporary praise music that has inspired me to worship. The Mass and worship is about God–yes–but why do we have music at all in the Mass? Because it is an instrument, a vehicle, for helping us his people to worship Him with our whole selves, body and soul. Music is meant to facilitate worship, which ultimately depends on our own response to God’s love–we can cooperate with it or not. Much depends on the heart of the worshiper.

Contemporary or traditional music can lead people to genuine worship of God, and contemporary or traditional music can become a performance. Abuses/misuses of either can occur. A heartfelt worship song that becomes a showy, self-focused voice-solo is wrong and not helpful to worship, as is a joyful, traditional entrance hymn on the organ that is not played well and sounds more like a dirge, with no one in the congregation singing along. Music should foster reverence, worship, and participation, and I’ve experienced both types of music facilitating that.

There is something about the music of the centuries (chant) that ties us into the Church’s tradition. And there is something about the praise music that is enabling people to encounter God in a fresh, dramatic way. I think both have value and that’s why the Church in her wisdom, especially in our country, has made allowance for both, while giving proper honor to the music of the centuries.

I’m involved in music ministry and have seen people have a deep encounter with the God of Sinai through heartfelt praise and worship music. I know that many people experience God’s majesty through hymns and traditional chant.

I hope these thoughts are helpful.

 

[benedictgal]

I just have a thought/question I’d like to add:

I don’t understand why many on this thread automatically equate “praise and worship music” with “entertainment.” In my own experience, I have experienced traditional hymns that have inspired me to worship, and I have experienced contemporary praise music that has inspired me to worship. The Mass and worship is about God–yes–but why do we have music at all in the Mass? Because it is an instrument, a vehicle, for helping us his people to worship Him with our whole selves, body and soul. Music is meant to facilitate worship, which ultimately depends on our own response to God’s love–we can cooperate with it or not. Much depends on the heart of the worshiper.

Contemporary or traditional music can lead people to genuine worship of God, and contemporary or traditional music can become a performance. Abuses/misuses of either can occur. A heartfelt worship song that becomes a showy, self-focused voice-solo is wrong and not helpful to worship, as is a joyful, traditional entrance hymn on the organ that is not played well and sounds more like a dirge, with no one in the congregation singing along. Music should foster reverence, worship, and participation, and I’ve experienced both types of music facilitating that.

There is something about the music of the centuries (chant) that ties us into the Church’s tradition. And there is something about the praise music that is enabling people to encounter God in a fresh, dramatic way. I think both have value and that’s why the Church in her wisdom, especially in our country, has made allowance for both, while giving proper honor to the music of the centuries.

I’m involved in music ministry and have seen people have a deep encounter with the God of Sinai through heartfelt praise and worship music. I know that many people experience God’s majesty through hymns and traditional chant.

I hope these thoughts are helpful.

But, I have noticed something conspicuously missing in this observation, something that the Secretary to the Congregation for Divine Worshiop and the Discipline of the Sacraments rightly observed: the fact that the Mass is the Holy Sacrifice.

What makes P&W incompatible, and I have said this before, is that it does not take this intrinsic fact into account. Furthermore, the settings with the secular instruments further distance the compatibility of this genre with the Holy Sacrifice.

There is also a degree of solemnity, dignity, beauty and majesty that is noticeably absent in the P&W genre. It doesn’t posses any of the sacral characteristics that are central to sacred, liturgical music.

 

[Ogo_nwa_maria]

All am going to say is THANK YOU SO MUCH.! finally someone apart from myself and music man seem to get all this.thats just what i ve been trying to say, irrespective of the time(century,year,period) thay all can help in connecting with the spiritual realm. They have helped me that i can testify to, both hymns and worship songs. There is nothing like good old hymns during lent and xmas, they, also i find that during days like the new year when i realise the miracle of another year and how many people didnt live to see another year, i just want to sing worship songs. Well thats how its done in my parish. Before and after the mass we sing praise worship and hymns for a couple of hours. Believe me, u will feel the presence of God in the atmosphere.

Tonia, you are African, so am I, praise and worship is a way of life for us, as Africans that’s the way we connect spiritually. It’s not easy to get people to see or understand that because really, solemnity is what it means literally, solemn. That’s the way a lot of people like to enjoy their mass and praise and worship seems to distract from that. Here in our part of the world things a little bit different that’s why our priest and religious are in the forefront of indigenization and inculturisation so that the people feel a sense of connection to the mass. We know that part of the reason why people leave the Catholic Church in our country is because, they claim that with all the Latin and solemnity, they can’t connect with God. When I was in school too, we went for a lot of these competition and there is encouragement for indigenous music to be developed. Those songs especially Jude Nnam and Co I love to hear at mass and after mass I feel lifted and refreshed than singing from the hymn book all through mass. Infact I avoid going to a sing from the hymn book all through the mass church because it’s distracting to me. I believe in balance. I believe there are different parts in a mass in which different moods are expressed and songs relative to such moods should be song. I love my Kyrie solemn and my Gloria lively.

Meanwhile welcome to the forum. It’s good to see another Nigeria active on board.

 

[benedictgal]

Tonia, you are African, so am I, praise and worship is a way of life for us, as Africans that’s the way we connect spiritually. It’s not easy to get people to see or understand that because really, solemnity is what it means literally, solemn. That’s the way a lot of people like to enjoy their mass and praise and worship seems to distract from that. Here in our part of the world things a little bit different that’s why our priest and religious are in the forefront of indigenization and inculturisation so that the people feel a sense of connection to the mass. We know that part of the reason why people leave the Catholic Church in our country is because, they claim that with all the Latin and solemnity, they can’t connect with God. When I was in school too, we went for a lot of these competition and there is encouragement for indigenous music to be developed. Those songs especially Jude Nnam and Co I love to hear at mass and after mass I feel lifted and refreshed than singing from the hymn book all through mass. Infact I avoid going to a sing from the hymn book all through the mass church because it’s distracting to me. I believe in balance. I believe there are different parts in a mass in which different moods are expressed and songs relative to such moods should be song. I love my Kyrie solemn and my Gloria lively.

Meanwhile welcome to the forum. It’s good to see another Nigeria active on board.

With all due respect, I think that the prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Francis Cardnial Arinze, would take issue with that. I believe he is Nigerian. Although he has made comments on liturgical dance, these seem to fit the discussion we are having:

(W)e come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.

So all those that want to entertain us – after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don’t come to clap. We don’t come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.

Don’t misunderstand me, because when I said this at one place somebody said to me: “you are an African bishop. You Africans are always dancing. Why do you say we don’t dance?”

A moment – we Africans are not always dancing! [laughter]

Moreover, there is a difference between those who come in procession at Offertory; they bring their gifts, with joy. There is a movement of the body right and left. They bring their gifts to God. That is good, really. And some of the choir, they sing. They have a little bit of movement. Nobody is going to condemn that. And when you are going out again, a little movement, it’s all right.

But when you introduce wholesale, say, a ballerina, then I want to ask you what is it all about. What exactly are you arranging? When the people finish dancing in the Mass and then when the dance group finishes and people clap – don’t you see what it means? It means we have enjoyed it. We come for enjoyment. Repeat. So, there is something wrong. Whenever the people clap – there is something wrong – immediately. When they clap – a dance is done and they clap.

It is possible that there could be a dance that is so exquisite that it raises people’s minds to God, and they are praying and adoring God and when the dance is finished they are still wrapped up in prayer. But is that the type of dance you have seen? You see. It is not easy.

…Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven’t we enough problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God. And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you! That’s how I feel about it.

I can understand the argument for inculturation; however, what all of us need to remember is that the Mass transcends all of that. We move beyond ourselves and go into God’s time. The veil between heaven and earth is temporarily lifted and we engage in the heavenly liturgy. It is beyond us. It is something greater than us. It is not about us. It is about God.

Music plays an integral role in this because it sets the tone for the Holy Sacrifice. P&W, on the other hand, adds nothing to the fact that we are in the presence of the Divine Majesty of God. It is about the vertical dimension that the Cardinal spoke of in the remarks that I quoted. P&W focuses too much on the horizontal, making our actions and ouselves the central part of what is happening. It doesn’t work.

 

[Sarabande]

All am going to say is THANK YOU SO MUCH.! finally someone apart from myself and music man seem to get all this.thats just what i ve been trying to say, irrespective of the time(century,year,period) thay all can help in connecting with the spiritual realm. They have helped me that i can testify to, both hymns and worship songs. There is nothing like good old hymns during lent and xmas, they, also i find that during days like the new year when i realise the miracle of another year and how many people didnt live to see another year, i just want to sing worship songs. Well thats how its done in my parish. Before and after the mass we sing praise worship and hymns for a couple of hours. Believe me, u will feel the presence of God in the atmosphere.

There is nothing wrong with singing Praise and Worship songs or Christian rock music before or after mass, at parties, in the privacy of your own home, dances (I attended a couple dances in college that had only Christian rock bands and it was a lot of fun just to be with my friends and dance to ok rock music - I don’t really like Christian rock music either, though) etc. Although I personally don’t like P&W music (I handle Christian rock a little more outside of mass) and actually receive a negative physical reaction when I hear it, I know that there are others who find something spiritually uplifting with it. That can’t be negated by those who do have that experience.

I don’t just pick on P&W and Christian rock. I know plenty of religious (not sacred) pieces composed in the classical style which I would also not consider appropriate for mass. The reason is because of how it is played or sung. It’s too “secular” in the approach of how it is to be performed. So, instead of it sounding like a sacred piece of music, it sounds like a secular piece. Although I find so much spiritual inspiration from many of those pieces, based on my reading for the Church, mentors and our director of worship for the archdiocese, they can’t be used in Church. And I’m fine with just performing them and hearing them outside of the mass in any capacity, such as for religious/sacred music concerts, in secular venues or as prelude music before a mass, etc.

Sometimes, you can take a secular-sounding, religious piece of music and refine it in such a way so that it can be appropriate for mass. A good example would be the Schubert “Ave Maria”. This piece of music was written in the lieder (songs) style of composing. It’s often mistaken by those who are not as familiar with vocal music, as “opera”. Anyone who is trained in the classical voice know that Lieder/Songs are sung differently from opera. Of course you still use your technique in the classical style as it is still within that family of music, but the approach is different. Lieder recitals are often in smaller rooms and you’re not supposed to sing as if you are singing in a huge hall without microphones.

There are religious lieder and secular lieder - mostly secular, but you will find religious lieder in the collections. “Ave Maria” is a religious song. The original German is not the actual “Hail Mary” prayer, but it is still a prayer to the Virgin Mary. Some classical singers can and have taken it more “operatically”, but most sing it the way a song is to be sung - refined, subtle, reverent - as it should be since it is a prayer to our Holy Mother.

If a P&W song can be refined and “performed” in such a way to be conducive for the liturgy, that would be fine. But I believe in order for a song written in that style to be refined in that way, you’d have to lose the “style” to put it in layman’s terms, thus it is no longer a P&W style of music.

It would be the same taking a “traditional” hymn or sacred music and “modernizing” it to sound more like a rock song or sing it like an operatic aria like when a cantor thinks he/she can add little fioretore, trills, cadenzas at the end etc. into a hymn (and I’ve heard it happen - good voices, but not good for mass). When any of that happens, I believe it is no longer appropriate for mass.

Or if you can take a more “quiet” P&W song, Christian contemporary song, or even one of those saccharine, 1920s-like hymns such as “Mary At Your Feet is Kneeling” and sing it in a more classical, straight-forward way, it could possibly work as being appropriate for mass.

 

[Ogo_nwa_maria]

I respect the fact that some people are adverse to praise and worship at mass and I really don’t blame them. I remember going for one mass in my hometown and the music and activity was so Pentecostal from the beginning to the end of the mass. I was so upset and the problem was that I ended up not participating in the mass cause I kept having issue with the way every thing was done. Trust, I had to go for another mass that day in another church and that is the last day I have ever stepped into that church but interestingly, every one in the church seemed to have being enjoying themselves that day except me it seems. However I also can’t survive a ding from the traditional hymn book from beginning of mass to the end. For me there is a balance and blessed is me when I find that church that gives me the balance, I am ready to cross seven seas and seven rivers to go there for mass.

So for me, the balance principle applies.

 

[benedictgal]

I respect the fact that some people are adverse to praise and worship at mass and I really don’t blame them. I remember going for one mass in my hometown and the music and activity was so Pentecostal from the beginning to the end of the mass. I was so upset and the problem was that I ended up not participating in the mass cause I kept having issue with the way every thing was done. Trust, I had to go for another mass that day in another church and that is the last day I have ever stepped into that church but interestingly, every one in the church seemed to have being enjoying themselves that day except me it seems. However I also can’t survive a ding from the traditional hymn book from beginning of mass to the end. For me there is a balance and blessed is me when I find that church that gives me the balance, I am ready to cross seven seas and seven rivers to go there for mass.

So for me, the balance principle applies.

However, you might want to take a step back and examine the situation. Have you read any of the Church documents on sacred music? Have you read what Pope John Paul II had to say on the matter. This might help you to understand the perspective many of us are coming from where Sacred Music is concerned:

1. In following the course of the teachings of Saint Pius X and of the Second Vatican Council, it is above all necessary to emphasize that music destined for the sacred rites must have as its point of reference sanctity: it in fact “will be the more holy the more closely it is united to the liturgical action”. Precisely because of this, “***not all that which stands outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross the threshold”, ***sagely affirmed my venerated Predecessor Paul VI, commenting upon a decree of the Council of Trent and clarified that “if it does not at once possess the sense of prayer, of dignity and beauty, music – instrumental and vocal – by this fact is precluded from admission into the sacred and religious realm”.

On the other hand, the category of “sacred music” today has undergone such a broadening of meaning as to include repertoire that cannot enter into the celebration without violating the spirit and the norms of the Liturgy itself.

…Song and music demanded by the liturgical reform – it is well to emphasize – must also respond to the legitimate demands of adaptation and of inculturation. Yet it is clear that every innovation in this delicate area must respect special criteria, such as the search for musical expressions that answer to the necessary involvement of the entire assembly in the celebration and that avoid, at the same time, whatever concession to levity or to superficiality. On the other hand are also to be avoided, in general, those forms of “inculturation” of an elitist stripe, which introduce into the Liturgy ancient or contemporary compositions which are perhaps of artistic value, but which indulge in a most incomprehensible language. [T]he sacred sphere of the liturgical celebration must never become a laboratory for experimentation or compositional and performance practices introduced without careful control.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is vastly different from a Protestant service. Protestant ecclesial communities do not have the Holy Sacrifice. All they have is the Word. In order to augment the word and engage their followers, they come up with music that is entertaining and superficially engages the emotion. The Church, on the other hand, has the Holy Sacrifice.

I’ve said this before. We are just as present in the Upper Room, at Calvary and at the Tomb as were the Apostles, the Blessed Mother and St. Mary Magdalene. The veil between time and space is lifted and we are there. We are also worshipping as a complete Church because we don’t just factor in the bodies in the pews. We are surrounded by a cloud of unseen witnesses (the saints and the faithful who have gone before us). That is who the Church is. That is who we are. P&W does not take that into account as well. It’s about feeling good, but, nothing else. It simply is not compatible with the Holy Sacrifice.

 

[4Squarebaby]

I’m just a praise team member in a Foursquare church. Don’t mind me just subscribing to the thread.

 

[FrDavid96]

Rome will speak, the matter will be settled.

Let’s just hope and pray it won’t take much longer.

 

[created2bholy]

I’ve said this before. We are just as present in the Upper Room, at Calvary and at the Tomb as were the Apostles, the Blessed Mother and St. Mary Magdalene. The veil between time and space is lifted and we are there. We are also worshipping as a complete Church because we don’t just factor in the bodies in the pews. We are surrounded by a cloud of unseen witnesses (the saints and the faithful who have gone before us). That is who the Church is. That is who we are. P&W does not take that into account as well. It’s about feeling good, but, nothing else. It simply is not compatible with the Holy Sacrifice.

Praise and worship music is about nothing more than feeling good? The two words describe two of the greatest actions concerning our devotion to and adoration of God.

I understand and have experienced examples of “worship” being very us-centered, and so I understand how you may have been turned off by it if you experienced it too–there was one large youth Mass that I attended once where the congregation was clapping after the Mass parts–I was horrified! And terribly distraught. That is absolutely not what is supposed to happen, as Cardinal Arinze said.

But I want to reiterate that just because it is sometimes incorporated very poorly into the liturgy, which it sometimes is, does not mean that it is devoid of value or the ability to be sacred. It’s like the example I mentioned earlier of a joyful hymn being sung like a dirge and inspiring no one to participate in the singing–the fact that that happens does not mean that hymn (or any hymn) should never be sung.

The “standard” that has been quoted multiple times in this discussion is Pope John Paul II’s words: “if it does not at once possess the sense of prayer, of dignity and beauty, music – instrumental and vocal – by this fact is precluded from admission into the sacred and religious realm”. Amen! Amen! Amen! I cannot express my agreement more!

Yet I have witnessed songs like, “Here I Am to Worship,” “In the Secret,” or “Salvation Belongs to Our God” possessing all of these qualities and leading the congregation to profound worship of God. They had a prayerful spirit, and a dignity and beauty that led the congregation to intense worship of God. If certain music possesses and accomplishes all this in the most holy sacrifice, why oppose it so strongly?

One other point I want to make: There also seems to be a bias against the experience of delighting in God, which praise and worship music seems to inspire, and I don’t understand why. The Catechism teaches that, “Strong feelings are not decisive for the morality or holiness of persons (1768)” and yet, “Moral perfection consists in man’s being moved to the good not by his will alone, but also by his sensitive appetite, as in the words of the psalm: ‘My heart and flesh sing for joy to the living God’” (1770).

Pope Benedict, in his encyclical on love, clearly re-affirmed the Church’s teaching that God’s love for His Church is spousal, even erotic. He not only chooses to love us, but delights in us, and desires for us to delight in Him. Yes, we come to worship God at Mass even when we don’t feel like it, but if something inspires us to rejoice and delight in being there, then praise the Lord! It is an even fuller response, as spoken of in CCC 1770. It is admirable and meritorious when spouses who don’t feel in love, love each other. Yet it is even more beautiful, I think, when they spontaneously rejoice in each other and can’t contain their love, no? It’s more than duty–it’s delight

That’s why we have music in the Mass in the first place, right? To lift our minds and hearts to God in worship. They assist us in that in a way that’s beyond words. It engages more of our being when we sing.

 

[twosweetgirls]

Rome will speak, the matter will be settled.

Let’s just hope and pray it won’t take much longer.

Roger that, Fr. David.

 

[benedictgal]

Praise and worship music is about nothing more than feeling good? The two words describe two of the greatest actions concerning our devotion to and adoration of God.

I understand and have experienced examples of “worship” being very us-centered, and so I understand how you may have been turned off by it if you experienced it too–there was one large youth Mass that I attended once where the congregation was clapping after the Mass parts–I was horrified! And terribly distraught. That is absolutely not what is supposed to happen, as Cardinal Arinze said.

But I want to reiterate that just because it is sometimes incorporated very poorly into the liturgy, which it sometimes is, does not mean that it is devoid of value or the ability to be sacred. It’s like the example I mentioned earlier of a joyful hymn being sung like a dirge and inspiring no one to participate in the singing–the fact that that happens does not mean that hymn (or any hymn) should never be sung.

The “standard” that has been quoted multiple times in this discussion is Pope John Paul II’s words: “if it does not at once possess the sense of prayer, of dignity and beauty, music – instrumental and vocal – by this fact is precluded from admission into the sacred and religious realm”. Amen! Amen! Amen! I cannot express my agreement more!

Yet I have witnessed songs like, “Here I Am to Worship,” “In the Secret,” or “Salvation Belongs to Our God” possessing all of these qualities and leading the congregation to profound worship of God. They had a prayerful spirit, and a dignity and beauty that led the congregation to intense worship of God. If certain music possesses and accomplishes all this in the most holy sacrifice, why oppose it so strongly?

One other point I want to make: There also seems to be a bias against the experience of delighting in God, which praise and worship music seems to inspire, and I don’t understand why. The Catechism teaches that, “Strong feelings are not decisive for the morality or holiness of persons (1768)” and yet, “Moral perfection consists in man’s being moved to the good not by his will alone, but also by his sensitive appetite, as in the words of the psalm: ‘My heart and flesh sing for joy to the living God’” (1770).

Pope Benedict, in his encyclical on love, clearly re-affirmed the Church’s teaching that God’s love for His Church is spousal, even erotic. He not only chooses to love us, but delights in us, and desires for us to delight in Him. Yes, we come to worship God at Mass even when we don’t feel like it, but if something inspires us to rejoice and delight in being there, then praise the Lord! It is an even fuller response, as spoken of in CCC 1770. It is admirable and meritorious when spouses who don’t feel in love, love each other. Yet it is even more beautiful, I think, when they spontaneously rejoice in each other and can’t contain their love, no? It’s more than duty–it’s delight

That’s why we have music in the Mass in the first place, right? To lift our minds and hearts to God in worship. They assist us in that in a way that’s beyond words. It engages more of our being when we sing.

But, I might add that Pope Benedict, in Sacramentum Caritatis, noted that:

The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. ***Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. ***Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129)

The sentence that I underline describes the problem with the P & W genre. As I have indicated in previous posts, this genre works well with Word-only services because it does not take into account the Eucharistic Sacrifice.

I would respectfully disagree that “Here I am to Worship” is appropriate. It talks about the self and about what I am doing and why I am here. It makes “me” the focus rather than the “Thou” of God.

You quote the Holy Father’s encyclical out of context, I am afraid. He is not referring to liturgy. Yes, he is referring to the relationship between Christ and His Church, but, not to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[Sarabande]

Rome will speak, the matter will be settled.

Let’s just hope and pray it won’t take much longer.

Yes. Definitely. That’s what matters more than what anyone of us from whatever side can debate and argue. And I’m prepared to accept whatever Rome decrees whether or not P&W is fully acceptable or all classical music is banned which are just extremes and doubt that either one would happen. But something in between, which would make everyone on either side be disappointed and happy, very well could be decreed.

 

[tonia]

Thanks Ogo,
I understand you perfectly and share ur views. personally, am the kind of person that cant wait to hear the kyrie during easter vigil.two of my sisters have left the church and this is one of their claims,the people need to feel connected with the mass. a lot of times when you ask people what a latin verse means they have no idea. they just go along most of the time without feeling connected or understanding what it is they are singing. am not saying latin should be scrapped,but the indigenous language of the people should also be incorporated into the mass.We need to strike a balance.A lot of gifted youths are leaving the church today because of reasons. you should hear my sister’s voice, its wonderful. i still pray that they will come back.

Tonia, you are African, so am I, praise and worship is a way of life for us, as Africans that’s the way we connect spiritually. It’s not easy to get people to see or understand that because really, solemnity is what it means literally, solemn. That’s the way a lot of people like to enjoy their mass and praise and worship seems to distract from that. Here in our part of the world things a little bit different that’s why our priest and religious are in the forefront of indigenization and inculturisation so that the people feel a sense of connection to the mass. We know that part of the reason why people leave the Catholic Church in our country is because, they claim that with all the Latin and solemnity, they can’t connect with God. When I was in school too, we went for a lot of these competition and there is encouragement for indigenous music to be developed. Those songs especially Jude Nnam and Co I love to hear at mass and after mass I feel lifted and refreshed than singing from the hymn book all through mass. Infact I avoid going to a sing from the hymn book all through the mass church because it’s distracting to me. I believe in balance. I believe there are different parts in a mass in which different moods are expressed and songs relative to such moods should be song. I love my Kyrie solemn and my Gloria lively.

Meanwhile welcome to the forum. It’s good to see another Nigeria active on board.

 

[tonia]

thank you!!!
when i am delighted about what God has done for me. why cant i praise him? i dont understand why i have to have a long face during mass and i say am praising God.All am going to say is this: I AM PROUD TO BE A CATHOLIC, I WILL BE ONE TILL I DIE, BUT I WILL NEVER BE A CATHOLIC THAT WILL KEEP A LONG FACE AT MASS, I WILL PRAISE GOD HOWEVER MY SPIRIT WILLS ME, BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT GOD IS THE SPIRIT INSIDE OF ME, SO IF MY SPIRIT WANTS TO SING HYMNS THEN I BELIEVE THATS WHAT GOD WANTS TO HEAR, IF MY SPIRIT WANTS TO SING P&W THEN I ALSO BELIEVE THATS WHAT GOD WANTS TO HEAR ALSO, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT ROME’S DECISION IS.
THANKS ONCE AGAIN FOR YOUR COMMENT

QUOTE=created2bholy;4419237]Praise and worship music is about nothing more than feeling good? The two words describe two of the greatest actions concerning our devotion to and adoration of God.

I understand and have experienced examples of “worship” being very us-centered, and so I understand how you may have been turned off by it if you experienced it too–there was one large youth Mass that I attended once where the congregation was clapping after the Mass parts–I was horrified! And terribly distraught. That is absolutely not what is supposed to happen, as Cardinal Arinze said.

But I want to reiterate that just because it is sometimes incorporated very poorly into the liturgy, which it sometimes is, does not mean that it is devoid of value or the ability to be sacred. It’s like the example I mentioned earlier of a joyful hymn being sung like a dirge and inspiring no one to participate in the singing–the fact that that happens does not mean that hymn (or any hymn) should never be sung.

The “standard” that has been quoted multiple times in this discussion is Pope John Paul II’s words: “if it does not at once possess the sense of prayer, of dignity and beauty, music – instrumental and vocal – by this fact is precluded from admission into the sacred and religious realm”. Amen! Amen! Amen! I cannot express my agreement more!

Yet I have witnessed songs like, “Here I Am to Worship,” “In the Secret,” or “Salvation Belongs to Our God” possessing all of these qualities and leading the congregation to profound worship of God. They had a prayerful spirit, and a dignity and beauty that led the congregation to intense worship of God. If certain music possesses and accomplishes all this in the most holy sacrifice, why oppose it so strongly?

One other point I want to make: There also seems to be a bias against the experience of delighting in God, which praise and worship music seems to inspire, and I don’t understand why. The Catechism teaches that, “Strong feelings are not decisive for the morality or holiness of persons (1768)” and yet, “Moral perfection consists in man’s being moved to the good not by his will alone, but also by his sensitive appetite, as in the words of the psalm: ‘My heart and flesh sing for joy to the living God’” (1770).

Pope Benedict, in his encyclical on love, clearly re-affirmed the Church’s teaching that God’s love for His Church is spousal, even erotic. He not only chooses to love us, but delights in us, and desires for us to delight in Him. Yes, we come to worship God at Mass even when we don’t feel like it, but if something inspires us to rejoice and delight in being there, then praise the Lord! It is an even fuller response, as spoken of in CCC 1770. It is admirable and meritorious when spouses who don’t feel in love, love each other. Yet it is even more beautiful, I think, when they spontaneously rejoice in each other and can’t contain their love, no? It’s more than duty–it’s delight

That’s why we have music in the Mass in the first place, right? To lift our minds and hearts to God in worship. They assist us in that in a way that’s beyond words. It engages more of our being when we sing.