Pray for Missouri! Pray for us all!

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kctigerhawk said:
What results from SCNT is not a spare kidney it is the embryo for a full human being. You understand that don’t you?
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You do understand that Dolly the sheep was cloned with SCNT, right?

She sure wasn’t a spare kidney!

My brothers protested yesterday and got a lot of positive response! Keep up the prayers and hard work, but don’t feel downcast!

I asked everyone at work and surprise-just about everyone is voting no. These people may have made bad lifestyle choices, most of them, but even they are recognizing that the entire thing stinks. The weird feeling of tyranny and deception is thick over here and people don’t like it!
 
Human life begins at conception
In SCNT there is no conception
that is why it is so important that the ban be put in place to prevent the use of the technique for reproductive purposes
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Cloning does not require conception. Or am I missing something? How would you clone a human without nuclear transfer? Isn’t it my 46 chormosomes that make me who I am? If I wanted to clone myself, wouldn’t I want all 46 chromosomes? So, fertilization would not be necessary.

This Amendment does not ban cloning of human beings. Human embryos will be created and destroyed.
 
So to you there is no difference between growing you a spare kidney or other tissue and growing a full human being? :confused:
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It isn’t a spare kidney that is growing. It is a human that is growing and developing. Whether IVF embyros or SCNT embyros are used, the embryos are destroyed to harvest the stem cells. If organs could be cloned for transplants, the stem cells from a human embryo would be used. The human being would be destroyed to harvest the stem cells.
 
kctigerhawk said:
Sorry thought of one more thing. If in SCNT there is no conception, and there is no life, how could it be used for reproductive purposes?
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Well there was the conception of the original nucleus donor
But there is no separate conception
Just like if some of your tissue was kept alive in a petri dish…when does that become separate life?

If I donate my kidney to my brother that organ still has my genes and shares my conception. It was a part of my body that the doctors fiddled with. It was still living tissue between when it was taken from me and when it was implanted but it has no separate existence from either the recipient or me.

Which is why SCNT for reproduction leads to all sorts of weird theological & moral questions that are way beyond my pay grade
kctigerhawk said:
The truth is that there is life because it really is a human embryo and it can be used for reproductive purposes.
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That is why the distinction is made between reproductive and non-reproductive use.

Is an ova that has had its nucleus removed and replaced with another an embryo? :confused:
To me an embryo is a fertilized egg.

SCNT can be twisted to mimic an embryo. Which is why the ban and other controls are fitting and proper. But it doesn’t have to be.
kctigerhawk said:
I will pray for you.
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thank you
and I you
 
If I donate my kidney to my brother that organ still has my genes and shares my conception. It was a part of my body that the doctors fiddled with. It was still living tissue between when it was taken from me and when it was implanted but it has no separate existence from either the recipient or me.
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A kidney and a human embryo are not the same.
Is an ova that has had its nucleus removed and replaced with another an embryo? To me an embryo is a fertilized egg.
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Even the researchers that with SCNT a human embryo is created.
SCNT can be twisted to mimic an embryo. Which is why the ban and other controls are fitting and proper. But it doesn’t have to be
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SCNT creates embryos. What do you think it creates?
 
Everything about this ammendment is so deceptive. Just one of many issues that need to be debated is provision 2(5) which states “Human blastocysts and eggs obtained for stem cell research…must have been donated…”

Hilary White for Campaign Life Coalition wrote this “Final Critique of C-13” when Canada was debating their so-called “cloning ban” in 2003. As has already been noted, researchers are returning home because this bill made Canada “fertile ground” for rapacious cloners.
The Oxford Dictionary of Current English gives as the
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definition of “donor,” “one who gives or donates some
thing” (emphasis added). There are only
**two orders of creation in the universe: persons and things. The bill, by including in the possible definition of “donor” one who gives or donates an embryo, is *de facto ***defining an embryo as a ***thing *****that may be donated. If the embryo can be donated, it is a thing, not a person. A thing may be bought, sold, donated, dissected, experimented upon and destroyed at will. A person may not. **If the embryo is person, none of those things may be done to it.
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Note: blastocysts are human persons at the embryonic stage of development.
lifesite.net/features/stemcellembryo/c13finalcritique.pdf
 
SteveAnderson, I sympathize with your confusion. It is hard to realize that an adult (somatic) cell can be reprogrammed to revert backwards. Dr. Dianne Irving has written volumes on this. This article, "What Embryo? Funnists Mental Gymnastics from Medicine and Research" is a beginning.
… By adulthood, the DNA in many of the cells of the human being has been almost completely “silenced” by the insertion of methylation bars – such as in human skin cells.
“ZIPPING DOWN”: In a-sexual reproduction, many of these processes operate in reverse. For example, in using the somatic cell nuclear transfer cloning technique, one begins with a highly specialized or differentiated cell (such as a skin cell – in which some or even most of the DNA in that cell’s nucleus has been “silenced”), and then one incrementally removes the methylation bars on that DNA until the DNA in that cell is in the same state of differentiation as the “fertilized egg” – resulting in a new, single-cell zygote, an organism, a single-cell embryo or human being. That is, you begin with just a “cell”, but end up with a new single-cell human being! …
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Thank you for your excellent questions which are extremely pertinent.
lifeissues.net/writers/irv/irv_82whathumanembryo1.html
 
The “blastocyst” is a human being. Once created through SCNT whether or not it is implanted or destroyed that blastocyst is a cloned human being
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Apparently, not everyone agrees with us. I read an article from the October 7th St. Louis Post-Dispatch stating “voters are being asked to apply ancient definitions of life to the outer frontiers of science”. Here is more from Measure poses hard-to-answer question to Missouri by Matt Frack.
Fundamental to that question is how voters define life itself, and at what point in the timeline of biological development they believe that living cells become a human being worthy of legal protection.
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…Many supporters of SCNT say the technique serves two purposes: It provides a source of stem cells tailored to a patient; and, because no sperm fertilizes the egg, there is no “conception.”

For that reason, Blunt and other abortion opponents have found it safe to support SCNT, saying that it does not violate their strict definitions of life.

Some say the cells produced by SCNT are morally no different from ordinary skin cells and should be used without hesitation in the fight against disease…

But for many abortion opponents, SCNT research produces human life as surely as if a sperm and egg were involved.

“I liken it to carrot cake,” said Sen. Matt Bartle, R-Lee’s Summit, who led a failed effort in the Legislature to ban SCNT. “I’ve seen a number of different recipes, but it all tastes like carrot cake to me.”

As catholicknight said, “it is an uphill battle”.
 
steveandersen said:
Well there was the conception of the original nucleus donor
But there is no separate conception
Just like if some of your tissue was kept alive in a petri dish…when does that become separate life?

If I donate my kidney to my brother that organ still has my genes and shares my conception. It was a part of my body that the doctors fiddled with. It was still living tissue between when it was taken from me and when it was implanted but it has no separate existence from either the recipient or me.

Which is why SCNT for reproduction leads to all sorts of weird theological & moral questions that are way beyond my pay grade

That is why the distinction is made between reproductive and non-reproductive use.

Is an ova that has had its nucleus removed and replaced with another an embryo? :confused:
To me an embryo is a fertilized egg.

SCNT can be twisted to mimic an embryo. Which is why the ban and other controls are fitting and proper. But it doesn’t have to be.

thank you
and I you
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You really don’t understand SCNT.

SCNT isn’t twisted to mimic an embryo. Its purpose is to create an actual embryo. That’s what it does. That is its purpose. That is its result. Not sometimes. Not on accident. Not only if you do it this way or that way.

It creates a human embryo everytime.

Then the broken record starts…

A human embryo is a human being.
Human beings have rights.

A tissue sample in a petri dish is not a human being.
A kidney is not a human being.

I really don’t mind repeating myself here because I want this thread to stay pinned to the top of this board until election day to remind everyone to pray for the defeat of this amendment.

So if you want to continue comparing lifeless tissue samples and organs to full human beings knock yourself out. I will literally keep responding to you until election day.
 
Presentation of Dr. Irving to the Missouri Catholic Conference Workshop.
… Every process involving human cloning is in itself a reproductive process in that it generates a
human being at the very beginning of his or her development, i.e., a human embryo. The Holy See regards
the distinction between “reproductive” and “therapeutic” (or “experimental”) cloning as unacceptable by
principle since it is devoid of any ethical and legal ground. This false distinction masks the reality of the
creation of a human being for the purpose of destroying him or her to produce embryonic stem cell lines or
to conduct other experimentation. Therefore, human cloning should be prohibited in all cases regardless of
the aims that are pursued. … The Holy See firmly supports a world–wide and comprehensive ban on
human cloning, no matter what techniques are used and what aims are pursued. …
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uffl.org/irving/irvplayinggoappen.pdf

Therapeutic cloning by the way is a misnomer as the human embryo is killed. Hardly a recommended therapy.
 
Therapeutic cloning by the way is a misnomer as the human embryo is killed. Hardly a recommended therapy
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The terms make so much sense to me but that is most likely related to teaching medical terminology. It also explains why reading “bans reproductive cloning” at 2tricky.org simplified the language for me. However, I agree that “this false distinction masks the reality of the creation of a human being for the purpose of destroying him or her to produce embryonic stem cell lines or to conduct other experimentationcan see this could be offensive or confusing to others”.

There is also “embryo cloning” or artificial twinning.
 
How many of us will even hear a petition for prayer let alone a sermon on the frightening and evil ref. in Missouri that may well be in your/my state next? The same ol, same ol as though Missouri has a legislative problem unrelated to the rest of us. Oremus!!!
 
Late to the party here…

I live here in Missouri…there is a lot of prayer and a lot of talking going on. Please keep praying for us in Missouri. We are praying a prayer written by a good Monsignor here in Kansas City followed with a Memorare…please Blessed Mother, intercede and God please change the hearts of all those in Missouri who might vote Yes for this Amendment.

"An Election Prayer To Mary For The Defeat Of Amendment 2

O Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Mercy, at this most critical time, we entrust the State of Missouri to your loving care. The forces that surround us no longer acknowledge our Heavenly Father as the Creator of Life. Most Holy Mother, we beg you to look down with mercy upon us and touch the hearts of our people. Open our minds to the great sanctity of human life and to the responsibilities that accompany human freedom. Free us from the falsehoods that lead to the evils of human cloning and embryonic stem cell research. Grant us the wisdom to proclaim that God’s law is the foundation on which this nation was founded, and that He alone is the True Source of our cherished rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. O Merciful Mother, obtain for us the grace to reject the culture of death and the courage to build a new Culture of Life.

Trusting in your most powerful intercession, we pray…

Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, we fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To thee do we come, before thee we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer us. Amen."
 
Missouri, you have my prayers! It is a matter of time before this hits all of our states.
 
3GirlsRUs said:
Late to the party here…

I live here in Missouri…there is a lot of prayer and a lot of talking going on. Please keep praying for us in Missouri. We are praying a prayer written by a good Monsignor here in Kansas City followed with a Memorare…please Blessed Mother, intercede and God please change the hearts of all those in Missouri who might vote Yes for this Amendment.

"An Election Prayer To Mary For The Defeat Of Amendment 2

O Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Mercy, at this most critical time, we entrust the State of Missouri to your loving care. The forces that surround us no longer acknowledge our Heavenly Father as the Creator of Life. Most Holy Mother, we beg you to look down with mercy upon us and touch the hearts of our people. Open our minds to the great sanctity of human life and to the responsibilities that accompany human freedom. Free us from the falsehoods that lead to the evils of human cloning and embryonic stem cell research. Grant us the wisdom to proclaim that God’s law is the foundation on which this nation was founded, and that He alone is the True Source of our cherished rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. O Merciful Mother, obtain for us the grace to reject the culture of death and the courage to build a new Culture of Life.

Trusting in your most powerful intercession, we pray…

Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, we fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To thee do we come, before thee we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer us. Amen."
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Posting mostly to bump this thread back to the top.

This prayer is being run frequently on the local Catholic Radio Station here in Kansas City. 1090 AM

If you have a local Catholic Radio station whether or not you live in a Missouri ask them to run this prayer for the defeat of amendment 2.
 
foolishmortal said:
Pray for the Amendment 2 to be defeated early November in the ballots. Its passage would allow unrestricted embryonic stem cell research and probably all they do to get those cells.

nocloning.org (.com?)
stemcellresearchfacts.com(org?) have more.

Let’s slow chastisement!
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Yes, I saw the interview with your bishop on the World Over Live on EWTN. It appears as though many people have been deceived into thinking that a “yes” vote will ban cloning and embryonic stem cell research but obviously the opposite is true.
 
3GirlsRUs said:
Late to the party here…

I live here in Missouri…there is a lot of prayer and a lot of talking going on. Please keep praying for us in Missouri. We are praying a prayer written by a good Monsignor here in Kansas City followed with a Memorare…please Blessed Mother, intercede and God please change the hearts of all those in Missouri who might vote Yes for this Amendment.

"An Election Prayer To Mary For The Defeat Of Amendment 2

O Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Mercy, at this most critical time, we entrust the State of Missouri to your loving care. The forces that surround us no longer acknowledge our Heavenly Father as the Creator of Life. Most Holy Mother, we beg you to look down with mercy upon us and touch the hearts of our people. Open our minds to the great sanctity of human life and to the responsibilities that accompany human freedom. Free us from the falsehoods that lead to the evils of human cloning and embryonic stem cell research. Grant us the wisdom to proclaim that God’s law is the foundation on which this nation was founded, and that He alone is the True Source of our cherished rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. O Merciful Mother, obtain for us the grace to reject the culture of death and the courage to build a new Culture of Life.

Trusting in your most powerful intercession, we pray…

Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, we fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To thee do we come, before thee we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer us. Amen."
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Amen! I live in Mo too and am praying also. And trying to help get the word out.
 
Bless all you Missourians helping to spread the word. I picked up a packet at church with postcards and pamphlets. I’m gonna be mailing out this week. I really think that if people read the stuff…read the amendment (all 15 pages of it!) ahead of time, there’s a fighting chance. I think we may be gaining…please keep praying. There is supposedly a SurveyUSA poll that has Missouri Amendment 2 at 45% “YES”; 36% “NO”; and 18% “UNDECIDED”…I think a week or two ago, they reported something like 57% “YES”…

Please keep praying…talk to Missouri voters…make sure they make an INFORMED choice, and just get people to the polls on the 7th! Probably the best way for this thing to pass is low voter turnout.
 
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