Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[bud02]

Leeann,

Unless you believe the holy spirit is guiding and leading you in matters of interpretting scripture, and not the millions of other believers who have interpretted it differently?

catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

That article gives a great explanation for how the church has historically understood this passage!

Mark 12-10
And have ye not read this scripture;(Ps 118:22) The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
11 This was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

Ps.118:22
The stone (Jesus) which the builders refused IS BECOME the head stone of the corner

Deut.32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

How about the rock that Mosses struck
When the Israelites were desperate from thirst during their desert wanderings, the Lord instructed Moses: “Behold, I will stand before thee there on the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink” (Exodus 17:6). As Numbers 20:1-13 tells, the prophet brought forth water again when he struck a second rock, even though this time he had been instructed only to pray for water.

Num 20-9
So Moses took the staff from the LORD’s presence, just as he commanded him. 10 He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.
12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

Do you believe that these passages are about Jesus the rock or Peter the rock? If you choose Peter then you build on sand. The church stands on Jesus not Peter

Eph.2:19
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

 

[MerickOWA]

Do you believe that these passages are about Jesus the rock or Peter the rock? If you choose Peter then you build on sand. The church stands on Jesus not Peter

Eph.2:19
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

I think you quoted your own proof for BOTH.

The household of God having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

There you have it, the Church is build on Jesus, apostles, and prophets… Not Jesus alone… Not apostles alone… Not prophets alone… all 3.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Mark 12-10
And have ye not read this scripture;(Ps 118:22) The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
11 This was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

Ps.118:22
The stone (Jesus) which the builders refused IS BECOME the head stone of the corner

Deut.32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

How about the rock that Mosses struck
When the Israelites were desperate from thirst during their desert wanderings, the Lord instructed Moses: “Behold, I will stand before thee there on the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink” (Exodus 17:6). As Numbers 20:1-13 tells, the prophet brought forth water again when he struck a second rock, even though this time he had been instructed only to pray for water.

Num 20-9
So Moses took the staff from the LORD’s presence, just as he commanded him. 10 He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.
12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

Do you believe that these passages are about Jesus the rock or Peter the rock? If you choose Peter then you build on sand. The church stands on Jesus not Peter

Eph.2:19
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

Hello again bud

You apparently have a great love of the Sacred Scriptures! What a blessing from God!

Thank you for sharing these passages, and I especially love the last two from Ephesians.

They show me, that THE CHURCH is built on Jesus AND Peter. “Built on the foundation of the apostles” with Jesus as the chief cornerstone! That is what we believe, precisely!

That the church is the body of Christ, and Christ Himself is at the head! Notice how it also illustrates us as “the household of God” referencing once again, the communion of saints

Who taught you that my faith is built on sand?

 

[bud02]

Which is it, did James encourage believers to pray for one another or did the Apostles not teach this? If early believers were taught to pray for one another, once they died and went to heaven, did they forget that teaching?

Why do you object to the idea that believers in HEAVEN can’t pray for us… but those on EARTH can.

People in heaven dont need prayers, the race for them has been completed.
No where does the bible say that we should pray for them (they have no need) or to them for intercession. That office is Jesus’s alone.

Why do we need prayers from saints in heaven? Is the Lords arm to short? His strength insufficient?

Isa 50-2
Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.

 

[MerickOWA]

People in heaven dont need prayers, the race for them has been completed.
No where does the bible say that we should pray for them (they have no need) or to them for intercession. That office is Jesus’s alone.

Why do we need prayers from saints in heaven? Is the Lords arm to short? His strength insufficient?

Isa 50-2
Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.

The question is … can they pray for US? When we are praying to Mary, we are asking for her help in prayer to Jesus. Just as you would ask your neighbor to pray for you. Why can’t those in heaven pray for us?

 

[bud02]

Hello again bud

Who taught you that my faith is built on sand?

There are problems with the Roman Catholic position. First of all, when we look at the Greek of Matthew 16:18 we see something that is not obvious in the English. “…you are Peter (πέτρος, petros) and upon this rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build My church…” In Greek nouns have gender. It is similar to the English words actor and actress. The first is masculine and the second is feminine. Likewise, the Greek word “petros” is masculine; “petra” is feminine. Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros. But Jesus said that the rock he would build his church on was not the masculine “petros” but the feminine “petra.” Let me illustrate by using the words “actor” and “actress”: “You are the actor and with this actress I will make my movie.” Do see how the gender influences how a sentence is understood? Jesus was not saying that the church will be built upon Peter, but upon something else. What, then, does petra, the feminine noun, refer to?

The feminine “petra” occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:

* Matt. 16:18, "And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."
* Matt. 27:60, "and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock  (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away."
* 1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."
* 1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

We can clearly see that in the three other uses of the Greek word petra (nominative singular; “petras” in 1 Cor. 10:4 is genitive singular) we find it referred to as a large immovable mass of rock in which a tomb is carved out (Matt. 27:60) and in reference to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:8). Note that Peter himself in the last verse referred to petra as being Jesus! If Peter uses the word as a reference to Jesus, then shouldn’t we?

In addition, Greek dictionaries and lexicons give us further insight into the two Greek words under discussion.

 

[bud02]

Let us not forget that Christ is the cornerstone, not Peter.

20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. (Ephesians 2:20)

It is true that Peter means stone, however he was not the foundation stone because it is Christ who is the foundation stone. And Peter is just one of the stones that stood on top of Christ.Lastly, according to the Catholic authorities, Peter (and his successors, the Popes) was made by Christ the head of the Church. This teaching is clearly false based on the truth written on the Holy Bible, because the true Church of Christ is headed by Christ Himself.

If the RCC claims to be built on Peter that is fine. But you dont have the market cornered. What of the other apostles and prophets?
Please dont say there was no other believers in the past, the RCC made a hobby of crushing anyone that didnt see things there way.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Let us not forget that Christ is the cornerstone, not Peter.

20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. (Ephesians 2:20)

It is true that Peter means stone, however he was not the foundation stone because it is Christ who is the foundation stone. And Peter is just one of the stones that stood on top of Christ.Lastly, according to the Catholic authorities, Peter (and his successors, the Popes) was made by Christ the head of the Church. This teaching is clearly false based on the truth written on the Holy Bible, because the true Church of Christ is headed by Christ Himself.

Christ IS the Head of the Catholic church

What language was Christ speaking in when He gave peter authority as His representative/ambassador/vicar/servant of the Church on earth?

 

[MerickOWA]

There are problems with the Roman Catholic position. First of all, when we look at the Greek of Matthew 16:18 we see something that is not obvious in the English. “…you are Peter (πέτρος, petros) and upon this rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build My church…” In Greek nouns have gender. It is similar to the English words actor and actress. The first is masculine and the second is feminine. Likewise, the Greek word “petros” is masculine; “petra” is feminine. Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros. But Jesus said that the rock he would build his church on was not the masculine “petros” but the feminine “petra.” Let me illustrate by using the words “actor” and “actress”: “You are the actor and with this actress I will make my movie.” Do see how the gender influences how a sentence is understood? Jesus was not saying that the church will be built upon Peter, but upon something else. What, then, does petra, the feminine noun, refer to?

The feminine “petra” occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:

* Matt. 16:18, "And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."
* Matt. 27:60, "and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock  (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away."
* 1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."
* 1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

We can clearly see that in the three other uses of the Greek word petra (nominative singular; “petras” in 1 Cor. 10:4 is genitive singular) we find it referred to as a large immovable mass of rock in which a tomb is carved out (Matt. 27:60) and in reference to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:8). Note that Peter himself in the last verse referred to petra as being Jesus! If Peter uses the word as a reference to Jesus, then shouldn’t we?

In addition, Greek dictionaries and lexicons give us further insight into the two Greek words under discussion.

Funny, I believe that Jesus would have spoke aramaic not in greek. In this case, he would have use the word Kepha, and there is no change for this word. He would have SAID the word Kepha both times. It is only when it was translated into Greek that this change from petra to petros was necessary due to the gender of Peter.

Check out
catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…Lastly, according to the Catholic authorities, Peter (and his successors, the Popes) was made by Christ the head of the Church. This teaching is clearly false …

Peter is indeed the chief minister of the Church, according to Sacred Scripture. This is even testified to by Protestant bible scholars. For example, according to Evangelical scholar F.F. Bruce:“And what about the ‘keys of the kingdom’ ? The keys of a royal or noble establishment were entrusted to the chief steward or majordomo; he carried them on his shoulder in earlier times, and there they served as a badge of the authority entrusted to him. About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palace in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim …(Isaiah 22:22). So in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward.” (Bruce, The Hard Sayings of Jesus [Intervarsity, 1983], 143-144, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 41)Likewise, according to Eduard Schweizer (Presbyterian/Reformed):“In Jewish interpretation, the key of David refers to the teachers of the Law (exiled in Babylon); according to Matthew 23:13, the ‘keys of the Kingdom of heaven’ are in the hands of the teachers of the Law. A contrast is here drawn between them and Peter. He is thus not the gatekeeper of heaven, but the steward of the Kingdom of heaven upon earth. His function is described in more detail as ‘binding and loosing’ …the saying must from the very outset have referred to an authority like that of the teachers of the Law. In this context, 'binding” and ‘loosing’ refer to the magisterium to declare a commandment binding or not binding**…For Matthew, however, there is only one correct interpretation of the Law, that of Jesus. This is accessible to the community through the tradition of Peter.…Probably we are dealing here mostly with teaching authority, and always with the understanding that God must ratify what Petrine tradition declares permitted or forbidden in the community." (Schweizer in The Good News According to Matthew [John Knox Press, 1975], page 343)See more here:
Upon this Rock … is the rock of Matt 16:18 Peter?

 

[sandusky]

Peter is indeed the chief minister of the Church, according to Sacred Scripture. This is even testified to by Protestant bible scholars. For example, according to Evangelical scholar F.F. Bruce:“And what about the ‘keys of the kingdom’ ? The keys of a royal or noble establishment were entrusted to the chief steward or majordomo; he carried them on his shoulder in earlier times, and there they served as a badge of the authority entrusted to him. About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palace in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim …(Isaiah 22:22). So in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward.” (Bruce, The Hard Sayings of Jesus [Intervarsity, 1983], 143-144, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 41)

However, earlier in that same section he states:…If we can get rid of the idea that the text has ***any reference to the Roman Church or to the papacy, we shall lose interest in such attempts to remove what has been felt to be its awkwardness.

Certainly there is nothing in the context to suggest Rome or the papacy*.**

(Kaiser, Davids, Bruce, Brauch, The Hard Sayings of the Bible, Intervarsity Press, Downers Grove, IL, 1996, p 383).
And toward the end the section:…Here, then, Luke may be held to provide a commentary on Matthew’s record by showing how, in pursuance of Jesus’ words, the keys of the kingdom and loosing was exercised in the primitive church in preaching, discipline and legislation.

(ibid., p 386)Bruce et. al., deny the passage provides any support for the Roman Papacy.

I’m certain Schweizer would echo that.

 

[bud02]

Well its been interesting sharing with you all but I have other things to do besides chasing roman catholics around and around an ever changing position.

Proverbs 27-3
Stone is heavy and sand a burden but provocation from a fool is heaver than both.

19-11
A mans wisdom gives him patience it is to his glory to over look an offense.

25-6
Do not exalt yourself in the king’s presents and do not claim a place among the great.
It is better for him to say to you, come up here, than for him to humiliate you before noble men.

Greek was used for the very reason that it is a language that allows great communication with few misinterpretations.
Greek is a language distinguished by an extraordinarily rich vocabulary. In respect to the roots of words, no better language to write the NT letters in.

I certainly hope that you all find that Christ is, the chief corner stone. which reminds me, the only place a chief corner stone can be used is at the top of a pyramid. There would be other stones that were cornerstones, but only one chief cornerstone, by which even the other cornerstones were oriented.

Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."–I PETER 2:6-8

Here is the testimony of Christ before Mosses ever wrote a single word. Its in 2 parts, and is only another part of the big picture beyond the RCC walls, God Bless you all.

europa.com/~edge/pyramid.html
europa.com/~edge/giza.html

 

[AshleyBelle]

Well its been interesting sharing with you all but I have other things to do besides chasing roman catholics around and around an ever changing position.

 Ok...so you're going to come to the forums and spout scripture at us  (which by the way, is from the Bible which was given to you BY the Catholic church..)  Then you are going to tell US what WE believe, and toss all the lies you've been fed? You storm these forums like an angry mob, ready to run into a Catholic mass and lynch the congregation! And then when we confront you with the truth, you run away because you're too prideful to admit you were wrong?

 

[mercygate]

Bud, guys responding to Bud – please take this to another thread; Leann owns this one!

 

[AshleyBelle]

Bud, guys responding to Bud – please take this to another thread; Leann owns this one!

You’re right, sorry Leeann! Your thread is obviously popular today
Let's all give a big, collective :wave: bye-bye to bud and move on to the good conversation we were having with the OP! :)

 

[Leeann]

AAWwwwwwww! Bud come back! I need help with all these postings!!! :coolinoff:

 

[Leeann]

Genesis:
There were no Christian saints in Heaven when the Apostles were writing most the NT (with the exception of Rev., and that mentions saints, etc.).

When did Mary die? Did she outlive the Apostles?
Quite a few Christian saints died in the early church times of persecution, even though they weren’t recognized by the Catholic Church…they were Christian saints.

In any event……if this practice of praying to Christian “saints” in heaven was such an important thing for all believers, for all time, would Jesus not make mention of it, out of His compassion and love for ‘all those who would come after and believe on the Apostles’ words’.

genesis:
There’s a reason why the Jews might have thought Jesus was crying out to Elijah on the Cross. Likewise, He was visited by Moses and Elijah at his transfiguration.

Yes…but what has that got to praying to/through them or anyone else in heaven.

genesis:
Further, Judas Maccabee was aided by the spirit of the prophet Jeremiah in 2 Maccabees.

Well 2 Maccabees isn’t considered by all to be scripture.

genesis:
This idea of being aided by holy people gone past is not foreign to the Christian faith

But what is foreign to the early Christian faith that the Apostles were encouraging, is the idea of “praying to Mary or saints”…they never taught that.

 

[Leeann]

Hi stMarina:

stMarina:
I don’t know? The Apostles were with Mary longer than they were with Jesus and so probably knew her even better and knowing that Mary always got Jesus to do what she wanted - He never disobeyed His mother - even getting Him to do His first miracle “before His time had come”. They’d probably pick Mary. (I’m not a Catholic)

Well, if the Apostles actually did spend longer time with Mary and actually believed what you’ve posted above, and valued it as something that Jesus himself had instructed them to do, you would think that they would do it…share this information with the early Christians as they established the churches and in the gospel books that were recorded later and the epistles that they circulated amongst the churches right there and then…but they didn’t. They always pointed to God –Jesus in times of encouragement or dire need.

 

[Leeann]

Genesis:
In regards to the OP, what is expressed here is Mary’s willingness to help anyone who stands before Christ. The point is, that if even she would not aide us, any other fellow Christian definitely would not.
If the Apostles heard that prayer they would respond that Mary will most definitely aid you and we will too!

What are you basing this on…from what they actually taught and preached…or on what the Catholic church has taught you?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Never the less….the paper trail is still theirs. You know what I mean. Human beings, being how we are fallible.

mercygate:
But the spotless Bride of Christ has Our Lord’s own promise that the Holy Spirit will guide her “into all the truth.” And she has the promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail against her. Aside from the specific promise to give Peter the Keys of the kingdom of heaven, the Lord’s Church cannot be seen to be anything but infallible. The ancient word used by the ancient churches is “indefectible.” The doctrine of indefectibility derives by inexorable logic from Our Lord Himself.

Well…that’s the claim anyway.

Leeann:
Yes. I have no problem (can’t speak on behalf of other believers – but I think a lot feel the same)
with accepting anything that is set out as a doctrine in any church, as long as it can be substantiated with what is found in the scriptures.

mercygate:
Yet you seem unwilling to acknowledge that Catholic scriptural references are valid. We see indefectibility in the scriptures, and apostolic authority, and apostolic succession, and all manner of things, including the Communion of Saints, that you say are not there.

What scriptural references, with regards to the praying to Mary?

Leeann:
I understand what you mean.
I believe the unity is very visible whenever we experience the fellowship of true believers in Christ, in whatever church they may be found. His love flows through them, the actions in their lives are done out of His love flowing through them and their desire to serve Him, that coupled with their peace and joy and faithfulness in times of trouble in their lives……these are all evidence and very visible signs of His Church…His spirit…in His visible Body.

mercygate:
I agree. And the Holy Spirit has a habit of not staying in the house when it comes to touching human hearts. But that is quite a different thing from doctrinal truth. For example, some of the best “Christians” I know – if you judge by their actions and their joy in the Lord – are JWs and Mormons but they are decidedly NOT Christian in any objective sense of the Name. Doctrine matters because Our Lord is Truth.

Doctrines are extremely important.
By a church’s doctrines, you can tell if they truly believe in the gospel message that Jesus and His Apostles taught and preached and if they adhere to it, or take away from it, or add to it.
I’ve never considered Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons as Christians – they don’t have the same “Jesus” as we do.
Why would you consider them Christians to begin with?

Leeann:
Then perhaps the question should be: When did the focus of the Catholic church shift from the message that was preached and taught by the Apostles, who were sent out by Jesus, when Mary and the saints were never mentioned as a source of help or intercession in times of crisis or need?

mercygate:
The focus of the Catholic faith is Jesus Christ, and the Gospel message is unchanged in its essence.

Really? The Pope dedicating “the world” to Mary is focusing on Jesus Christ?