Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

jfallaw:
As long as you believe that the Bible is the sum of God’s Word, then you will never understand. Sad but true. Catholics believe that God continued to speak to us through His appointed leaders and their successors. We are not ashamed of this belief and we will not stop believing it. You do not have to believe it. We believe that it is God’s desire that ALL who are worthy will get to heaven- even those who are not members of the church. But it’s so much easier if you are a part of the church as Christ established it.

In what way is it “easier” if you are a part of the Catholic Church?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by mercygate **
Bud, guys responding to Bud – please take this to another thread; Leann owns this one!

guanophore:
Sorry, I came to this after the fact. I would think that Leeann would appreciate Bud. Does he not embody and express the same views she has? Has she not stated from the beginning that the Catholic Church of today is unrecognizeable from the one in the NT?

I’m not sure if Bud does embody and express all the same views I have – haven’t been able to read all the postings – however it is an open place for everyone to come into –and can’t see why Bud shouldn’t be here?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Here is an honest question for you Leeann… (though I realize you’ve got a lot to answer already! )

Is a husband jealous of a mother's love for her Children, or the children's love for their mother?

It doesn't mean they love their father any less.. but they recognize without their mother's role, they would NOT have their father. Without their mother's role, they would not be alive.

Would the father ever accuse his children of loving their mother too much?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

When did Mary die?

guanophore:
How do you know she did?

She was human and it’s afforded to each of us to die once.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Did she outlive the Apostles?
Quite a few Christian saints died in the early church times of persecution, even though they weren’t recognized by the Catholic Church…they were Christian saints.

guanophore:
We can see from the early archeological evidence that Catholics asked the intercession of the saints from the first. St. Stephen, as you can imagine, was very popular.

Proof of how early error had crept in to the early church, as the Apostles and Jesus warned was happening and would happen.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
In any event……if this practice of praying to Christian “saints” in heaven was such an important thing for all believers, for all time, would Jesus not make mention of it, out of His compassion and love for ‘all those who would come after and believe on the Apostles’ words’.

guanophore:
Jesus was clear that certain things would not happen, or would not be understood until later. He stated that the wedding guests should not fast while the bridegroom was with them, but later they would. He made it clear that the Apostles would drink of His cup.

As I said…since this particular bit of information would be of great benefit for all believers of all time for their spiritual benefit, why was no mention made of it?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Yes…but what has that got to praying to/through them or anyone else in heaven.

guanophore:
'Jesus taught and lived that the saints are alive to Him. He showed the Apostles this in very certain terms. He taugth that members of the Body are not separated from Him, or one another, even in death. Knowing this, why would the Apostles STOP asking the prayers of Mary or others after they passed from here to His presence?

No one is saying that those who are in heaven are not alive.
And there is no indication that the Apostles ever did pray to Mary or to anybody else. They certainly never taught it or preached it, and neither did Jesus.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Well 2 Maccabees isn’t considered by all to be scripture.

guanophore:
Jesus is not considered by all to be God, either, but you can see that it makes no impact on the Truth.

Jesus and His Apostles used and quoted from the Septuagint, and that is sufficient for us to consider it Scripture.

Jesus and His Apostles never quoted from Maccabees.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
But what is foreign to the early Christian faith that the Apostles were encouraging, is the idea of “praying to Mary or saints”…they never taught that.

guanophore:
You are assuming this based on the minute evidence found in the NT. When the early Church wanted Mary’s prayer, they simply went to her and asked her. She was there with them in the upper room.

What has your comment got to do in relation to the excerpt of my quote you posted???

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

Well, if the Apostles actually did spend longer time with Mary and actually believed what you’ve posted above, and valued it as something that Jesus himself had instructed them to do, you would think that they would do it…share this information with the early Christians as they established the churches and in the gospel books that were recorded later and the epistles that they circulated amongst the churches right there and then…but they didn’t. They always pointed to God –Jesus in times of encouragement or dire need.

guanophore:
The error here is in assuming that Mary does not always point to Godd, and that Mary is somehow separate or not included in the will of God. Mary eternally says “do whatever He tells you”.

Yes….and what has **He **told us to do?
To go to Him…and yet the Catholic Church doesn’t present this, instead they encourage their member to go to ……Mary.
Why is that?

 

[Leeann]

Hi Coder:

Re: Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?
To the O.P. :

Coder:
Hi Leeann, the Pope was quoting Bartolo to apply a spiritual concept to a current crisis. It seems you are trying to find a fault with the Church that Jesus Himself founded using these individual statements. In order to have the fullness of truth you must understand that Mary is an integral part of Christian spirituality. This is because Jesus said so. Jesus from the cross told the apostle that Mary is his mother. He meant it and you must know that. If Mary is mother of the apostles then she is our mother.

Also, do you think that the Pope does not pray to Jesus? Of course he does! Do you think that the Pope does not pray the Our Father? Of course he does!

In fact, I think that Mary’s prayers for us help us to communicate better to the Father when we pray directly to Him! Why don’t Protestants teach that?! Could it be darkness?! Who brought this darkness? I think it was the father of all lies.

Or perhaps it’s the other way around?
Why DOES the Catholic Church teach this?
Could it be darkness……Who brought this darkness….could it be the father of all lies?

 

[bud02]

Ok…so you’re going to come to the forums and spout scripture at us (which by the way, is from the Bible which was given to you BY the Catholic church…) Then you are going to tell US what WE believe, and toss all the lies you’ve been fed? You storm these forums like an angry mob, ready to run into a Catholic mass and lynch the congregation! And then when we confront you with the truth, you run away because you’re too prideful to admit you were wrong?

So let your light shine before men
Hears my scripture spouting hail Mary pass.

Gen 3-15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Both Adam and Eve were separated from God because of sin. All of there children were also separated. But God said he would bring enmity between Eves “separated fallen” seed and the serpents. This promise continued in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The entire Old Testament speaks of this coming promise. Now all men and women were in a fallen state including Mary because she also was a decedent of Adam and Eve. God found favor with her but she was still a fallen human, that, God conceived his Son with, her “separated from God, sinful” egg in her womb. That is why Jesus is both God and man.

Here are some of the official statements from the RCC about Mary below. scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#I

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

There are only 2 places in the Bible that speak about the Antichrist.
1 John 4 1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

2 John 1-7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist

Buy giving Mary the title of Mother of God in the fullest sence of the deity, and other statements like.
1 preserved free from all stain of original sin
2 In giving birth you kept your virginity
3 You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.

You clearly do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. To the RCC Mary was more than a fallen daughter of Eve. Do you understand that buy claiming Mary something other than a fallen daughter of Eve you deny that Jesus was born of the flesh. All the veneration and praying to Mary is the fullness and completeness of the Antichrist.

As for pride AshleyBelle

Proverbs 11-2
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.

Proverbs 21-22
A wise man attacks the city of the mighty and pulls down the stronghold in which they trust

Proverbs 21-30
There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the Lord.

As for having the keys hell, when did the man of perdition have need of keys to enter his own house.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
What scriptural references, with regards to the praying to Mary?

guanophore:

I am curious, Leeann. Why do you think Jesus made sure the Apostles were present when He went up to have his little chat with 'ol Mo and the passenger of the burning chariot? Could He not have done this in private? Why was it important for them to see?

Why do you think it is less likely for Mary to be present that Mo and Elijah?

I am curious, guanophore. Why do you think this has anything to do with praying to/through Mary?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Doctrines are extremely important.

guanophore:
I agree. It is also extremely important that they be received from an Apostolic source, to prevent one from embracing a “different gospel”.

Exactly! See what’s happened in the Catholic Church by developing the Marian Theology to the point of the Pope not knowing where to turn too!

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
By a church’s doctrines, you can tell if they truly believe in the gospel message that Jesus and His Apostles taught and preached and if they adhere to it, or take away from it, or add to it.

guanophore:
How could you know this, since you have rejected the persons to whom Jesus committed the Truth?

I haven’t rejected the Apostles truth.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I’ve never considered Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons as Christians – they don’t have the same “Jesus” as we do.

guanophore:
I agree, and even these things cannot be determined based on the partial revelation that is present in Scripture. That is why it is that they use the same scripture we do to arrive at their doctrines. The Scripture was never meant to be separated from the Apostolic Teaching that produced it. The further it is separated,t he more bizarre the results.

I don’t believe they actually use the same scripture. It is different.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Really? The Pope dedicating “the world” to Mary is focusing on Jesus Christ?

guanophore:
Absolutely. The Pope knows that Mary says “do whatever He tells you”. Jesus wants the whole world dedicated to Himself. Therefore, through the intercession of Mary, He fuflills God’s will.

It’s not the Pope’s to dedicate. He just doesn’t get it…yet.

guanophore:
It is not necessary to separate them. However, if this bothers you, get up and dedicate the whole world to Jesus right now yourself! That should fix it.

It’s already been done, over and over, by millions of individual believers and by other pastors and ministers and leaders of other churches the world over…with the exception that they never asked in a quandary….” to whom will we turn too…” – as they were already at the proper source.__________________

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure if Bud does embody and express all the same views I have – haven’t been able to read all the postings – however it is an open place for everyone to come into –and can’t see why Bud shouldn’t be here?

He seems to share a number of them. I can’t think of a reason why he should leave either. He seemed to indicate he was very busy, and did not have enough time to get all us Catholics straightened out.

I have a question for you, Leeann. It seems clear that you have no use for so much Catholic teaching. Why are you here?

You have been clear that you do not accept the Catholic Church for what she claims to be. Why do you not commend us all to God and go your way in peace? What is it in you that compels you to criticize our spiritual practices?

She was human and it’s afforded to each of us to die once.

Then how come Enoch and Elijah did not?

Proof of how early error had crept in to the early church, as the Apostles and Jesus warned was happening and would happen.

If you believe this, then how can you accept without question other Doctrines coming from the same place, like the hypostatic union, observance of the Sabbath on Sunday, the Trinity, and the canon of the NT? If error crept in,on what basis can any of these be valid?

As I said…since this particular bit of information would be of great benefit for all believers of all time for their spiritual benefit, why was no mention made of it?

You are making an erroneous assumption that truths that are of great benefit to all believers of all time are confined to the pages of the NT. I have mentioned several of these above.

No one is saying that those who are in heaven are not alive.
And there is no indication that the Apostles ever did pray to Mary or to anybody else. They certainly never taught it or preached it, and neither did Jesus.

You are making an erroneous assumption that 'there is no indication". There are indications, you just reject them! You have arbitrarily deemed them “pagan” or evil influences that have “crept” into the Church, yet you have no way to distinguish them from other Sacred Traditions.

Jesus and His Apostles never quoted from Maccabees.

Were you there? then you cannot make this assertion. You are erroneously assuming that everything they said is written in your NT.

Besides, Jesus did use Maccabees, as did Paul. Your inability to see this in no way detracts from their use of the Septuagint as the authoritative canon of scripture.

Yes….and what has **He **told us to do?
To go to Him…and yet the Catholic Church doesn’t present this, instead they encourage their member to go to ……Mary.
Why is that?

For us, it is not “instead”. We believe they are together. Why does it bother you so much? I thought you were content with your “Jesus only” faith?

 

[adstrinity]

Then how come Enoch and Elijah did not?

Nor did Lazarus. He died twice. God loved him more.

 

[bud02]

So let your light shine before men
Hears my scripture spouting hail Mary pass.

Gen 3-15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Both Adam and Eve were separated from God because of sin. All of there children were also separated. But God said he would bring enmity between Eves “separated fallen” seed and the serpents. This promise continued in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The entire Old Testament speaks of this coming promise. Now all men and women were in a fallen state including Mary because she also was a decedent of Adam and Eve. God found favor with her but she was still a fallen human, that, God conceived his Son with, her “separated from God, sinful” egg in her womb. That is why Jesus is both God and man.

Here are some of the official statements from the RCC about Mary below. scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#I

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

There are only 2 places in the Bible that speak about the Antichrist.
1 John 4 1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

2 John 1-7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist

Buy giving Mary the title of Mother of God in the fullest sence of the deity, and other statements like.
1 preserved free from all stain of original sin
2 In giving birth you kept your virginity
3 You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.

You clearly do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. To the RCC Mary was more than a fallen daughter of Eve. Do you understand that buy claiming Mary something other than a fallen daughter of Eve you deny that Jesus was born of the flesh. All the veneration and praying to Mary is the fullness and completeness of the Antichrist.

As for pride AshleyBelle

Proverbs 11-2
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.

Proverbs 21-22
A wise man attacks the city of the mighty and pulls down the stronghold in which they trust

Proverbs 21-30
There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the Lord.

As for having the keys hell, when did the man of perdition have need of keys to enter his own house.

You have been clear that you do not accept the Catholic Church for what she claims to be. Why do you not commend us all to God and go your way in peace? What is it in you that compels you to criticize our spiritual practices?

Well Leeann it looks like I wore out our welcome here, Mr guanophore with 9942 post apparently has no desire to continue or reply.
Just remember my little scripture spouting sermon, just get to the heart of the matter.

Proverbs 9 is a great read Leeann

1 Wisdom has built her house; she has hewn out its seven pillars.

6 Leave your simple ways and you will live; walk in the way of understanding. 7 "Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse. 8 Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you. 9 Instruct a wise man and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man and he will add to his learning.

 

[guanophore]

What has your comment got to do in relation to the excerpt of my quote you posted???

I am pointing out that you are making erroneous conclusions based upon an erroneous assumption. You keep asserting "they never taught that’ based on the assumption that everything they taught is in the NT.
Leeann;4365677:

Re: Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

You are making an "either/or distinction that does not exist.

Or perhaps it’s the other way around?
Why DOES the Catholic Church teach this?
Could it be darkness……Who brought this darkness….could it be the father of all lies?

Is this the answer to my previous question? Is your goal here to point out to us your firm convictions that the Catholic Church has been infiltrated or taken over by the father of all lies?

I am curious, guanophore. Why do you think this has anything to do with praying to/through Mary?

You did not answer my question, Leeann. Are you dodging?

Even though it is against the forum rules for you to anwser my question with a question, I will overlook this. The question relates to the communion of saints, a teaching of the Apostles that impacts this discussion.

Exactly! See what’s happened in the Catholic Church by developing the Marian Theology to the point of the Pope not knowing where to turn too!

You are making an erroneous assumption that Mary is somehow separated from Christ and His will.

I haven’t rejected the Apostles truth.

Not all of it, no. Every “bible christian” has at least some of it.

I don’t believe they actually use the same scripture. It is different.

Do you disagree that faithful followers of Christ can reach opposing beliefs reading the same NT?

It’s not the Pope’s to dedicate. He just doesn’t get it…yet.

If the Apostles can desire the salvation of all souls on the earth, why is it wrong for the Pope? Do you not desire that all souls serve Christ?

It’s already been done, over and over, by millions of individual believers and by other pastors and ministers and leaders of other churches the world over…with the exception that they never asked in a quandary….” to whom will we turn too…” – as they were already at the proper source.

I am very puzzled by this, Leeann. It is ok for others to intercede on behalf of the world, but not the Pope?

Let’s say, for the sake of discussion, the Pope was off his nut, and did not know what he was saying and was babbling nonsense. Why would that bother you?

 

[guanophore]

Well Leeann it looks like I wore out our welcome here, Mr guanophore with 9942 post apparently has no desire to continue or reply.
Just remember my little scripture spouting sermon, just get to the heart of the matter.

Not at all, Bud. You are most welcome here. We understand that there are many people out there who have been fed lies all their lives about the Catholic faith, or never understood the faith into which they were baptized.

So let your light shine before men
Hears my scripture spouting hail Mary pass.

But God said he would bring enmity between Eves “separated fallen” seed and the serpents.

This is where we see the Immaculate Conception. Emnity means total separation and division. She has no part in him, or he in her.

Now all men and women were in a fallen state including Mary because she also was a decedent of Adam and Eve. God found favor with her but she was still a fallen human, that, God conceived his Son with, her “separated from God, sinful” egg in her womb. That is why Jesus is both God and man.

Well, we read it differently.

There are only 2 places in the Bible that speak about the Antichrist.
1 John 4 1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

2 John 1-7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist

Buy giving Mary the title of Mother of God in the fullest sence of the deity,

What do you mean by this? Mary is not called the Mother of God in any “fullest sense of the deity”!

You made that up, the blamed it on the Catholics!

and other statements like.
1 preserved free from all stain of original sin
2 In giving birth you kept your virginity
3 You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.

You clearly do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.

No, bud, you missed the mark here. I think if you were to study the heresies of Arianism and Gnosticism, out of which the Marian doctrines came, you will find out how silly it is to accuse this. She received the title “Mother of God” BECAUSE the Church was defending against the heresy that He was not God in the flesh.
Do a little delving into your family history.

To the RCC Mary was more than a fallen daughter of Eve. Do you understand that buy claiming Mary something other than a fallen daughter of Eve you deny that Jesus was born of the flesh. All the veneration and praying to Mary is the fullness and completeness of the Antichrist.

No, bud. We believe that she was saved from her fallen state, just like all of us are, by the blood of Christ. We believe that ALL of us are more than fallen sons and daughters of Adam and Eve.

If you deny this, you deny the foundation of the gospel message, that Jesus Christ saves us from our sins, and has transferred us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light, and made us adopted sons and daughters, in Christ, who is seated at the right hand of the Father.

 

[Leeann]

Taking some time to go back and read some of the posts I’ve missed - catch up a bit!

 

[bud02]

No, bud. We believe that she was saved from her fallen state, just like all of us are, by the blood of Christ. We believe that ALL of us are more than fallen sons and daughters of Adam and Eve.

If you deny this, you deny the foundation of the gospel message, that Jesus Christ saves us from our sins, and has transferred us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light, and made us adopted sons and daughters, in Christ, who is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Well you had better check that out with the Pope, It is the very foundation of the gospel. You should really know what the Pope teaches. Here is complete contradiction to your statement,

Read the full post here
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm24.htm
heres another
catholicdoors.com/homilies/991208.htm

MARY WAS FREE FROM ALL PERSONAL SIN
Pope John Paul II

The special privilege by which Mary persevered in holiness throughout her earthly life invites us to contemplate her sublime growth in faith and love

The doctrine of Mary’s perfect holiness was the subject of the Holy Father’s catechesis at the General Audience of Wednesday, 19 June. This truth asserts “that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life”, the Pope said. Here is a translation of his catechesis, which was the 24th in the series on the Blessed Virgin and was given in Italian.

1. The definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception directly concerns only the first moment of Mary’s existence, from when she was “preserved free from every stain of original sin”. The papal Magisterium thus wished to define only the truth which had been the subject of controversy down the centuries: her preservation from original sin, and was not concerned with defining the lasting holiness of the Lord’s Virgin Mother.

This truth already belongs to the common awareness of the Christian people. It testifies that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life.

No sin or imperfection can be attributed to Mary

1. The Church has constantly regarded Mary as holy and free from all sin or moral imperfection. The Council of Trent expresses this conviction, affirming that no one “can avoid all sins, even venial sins, throughout his life, unless he is given a special privilege, as the Church holds with regard to the Blessed Virgin” (DS 1573).

---

Back to 1 and 2 John, the RCC denies that Jesus came in the flesh. You claim the Mary was without sin, therefor you say she was like Christ. If this was true She could have given Her life in place of Jesus. Or you could say she had no need of salvation. Any way you look at it, if Mary was sin less Jesus was not born of the flesh. And the RCC fails the Antichrist test.

Many Christians read 1 & 2 John and thinks that, (every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God). Means that those who deny Christ only. But I have shown you the keys to hell and satin masquerading as an Angel of light in the RCC, called Mary.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Well you had better check that out with the Pope, It is the very foundation of the gospel. You should really know what the Pope teaches. Here is complete contradiction to your statement,

Read the full post here
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm24.htm
heres another
catholicdoors.com/homilies/991208.htm

MARY WAS FREE FROM ALL PERSONAL SIN
Pope John Paul II

The special privilege by which Mary persevered in holiness throughout her earthly life invites us to contemplate her sublime growth in faith and love

The doctrine of Mary’s perfect holiness was the subject of the Holy Father’s catechesis at the General Audience of Wednesday, 19 June. This truth asserts “that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life”, the Pope said. Here is a translation of his catechesis, which was the 24th in the series on the Blessed Virgin and was given in Italian.

1. The definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception directly concerns only the first moment of Mary’s existence, from when she was “preserved free from every stain of original sin”. The papal Magisterium thus wished to define only the truth which had been the subject of controversy down the centuries: her preservation from original sin, and was not concerned with defining the lasting holiness of the Lord’s Virgin Mother.

This truth already belongs to the common awareness of the Christian people. It testifies that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life.

No sin or imperfection can be attributed to Mary

1. The Church has constantly regarded Mary as holy and free from all sin or moral imperfection. The Council of Trent expresses this conviction, affirming that no one “can avoid all sins, even venial sins, throughout his life, unless he is given a special privilege, as the Church holds with regard to the Blessed Virgin” (DS 1573).

Back to 1 and 2 John, the RCC denies that Jesus came in the flesh. You claim the Mary was without sin, therefor you say she was like Christ. If this was true She could have given Her life in place of Jesus. Or you could say she had no need of salvation. Any way you look at it, if Mary was sin less Jesus was not born of the flesh. And the RCC fails the Antichrist test.

Many Christians read 1 & 2 John and thinks that, (every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God). Means that those who deny Christ only. But I have shown you the keys to hell and satin masquerading as an Angel of light in the RCC.

How can you read all of that and STILL not see what it is saying???

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Please… stop reading Catholic documents trying to prove that we’re crazy. Stop reading them trying to prove that we worship Mary or that we believe she is not a human like the rest of us. STOP reading and only seeing what you want to see.

The same is true with scripture. Not one piece of scripture that you’ve posted contradicts anything we believe. You pull out passages and say “HA! THERE!! YOU SEE IT!!! You’re wrong!!!”

The problem is that we also believe scripture to be the inspired word of God. The difference is that we do not believe OUR interpretations of His word are perfect. Nor do we believe YOUR interpretation of His word is perfect.
Why are you trying to prove to us what we believe, from our own documents? We know what "He preserved Mary from the Stain of original sin" means... And we know that Mary is just as human as the rest of us. You are trying to tell us that we don't "really" believe what we're telling you our beliefs are. Instead, what we "really" believe, is what you're telling us our beliefs are?????

 

[adstrinity]

Well you had better check that out with the Pope, It is the very foundation of the gospel. You should really know what the Pope teaches. Here is complete contradiction to your statement,

Read the full post here
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm24.htm
heres another
catholicdoors.com/homilies/991208.htm

MARY WAS FREE FROM ALL PERSONAL SIN
Pope John Paul II

The special privilege by which Mary persevered in holiness throughout her earthly life invites us to contemplate her sublime growth in faith and love

The doctrine of Mary’s perfect holiness was the subject of the Holy Father’s catechesis at the General Audience of Wednesday, 19 June. This truth asserts “that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life”, the Pope said. Here is a translation of his catechesis, which was the 24th in the series on the Blessed Virgin and was given in Italian.

1. The definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception directly concerns only the first moment of Mary’s existence, from when she was “preserved free from every stain of original sin”. The papal Magisterium thus wished to define only the truth which had been the subject of controversy down the centuries: her preservation from original sin, and was not concerned with defining the lasting holiness of the Lord’s Virgin Mother.

This truth already belongs to the common awareness of the Christian people. It testifies that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life.

No sin or imperfection can be attributed to Mary

1. The Church has constantly regarded Mary as holy and free from all sin or moral imperfection. The Council of Trent expresses this conviction, affirming that no one “can avoid all sins, even venial sins, throughout his life, unless he is given a special privilege, as the Church holds with regard to the Blessed Virgin” (DS 1573).

None of that contradicts what was said. Mary needed a saviour to be saved, BUT, Mary never had a chance to sin or even to desire to sin.

---

Back to 1 and 2 John, the RCC denies that Jesus came in the flesh.

NO.
WE.
DON’T.

The Catholic Church told the World He came in the flesh and we asserted this and clarified how later on in centuries.

You claim the Mary was without sin, therefor you say she was like Christ. If this was true She could have given Her life in place of Jesus. Or you could say she had no need of salvation. Any way you look at it, if Mary was sin less Jesus was not born of the flesh. And the RCC fails the Antichrist test.

Many Christians read 1 & 2 John and thinks that, (every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God). Means that those who deny Christ only. But I have shown you the keys to hell and satin masquerading as an Angel of light in the RCC, called Mary.

Mary IS without sin. This does not make Her any less human.

She is without sin because of Jesus.

YOU NEED to humble yourself.

May Mary bring you back to Her Jesus.

 

[bud02]

How can you read all of that and STILL not see what it is saying???

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Please… stop reading Catholic documents trying to prove that we’re crazy. Stop reading them trying to prove that we worship Mary or that we believe she is not a human like the rest of us. STOP reading and only seeing what you want to see.

The same is true with scripture. Not one piece of scripture that you’ve posted contradicts anything we believe. You pull out passages and say “HA! THERE!! YOU SEE IT!!! You’re wrong!!!”

The problem is that we also believe scripture to be the inspired word of God. The difference is that we do not believe OUR interpretations of His word are perfect. Nor do we believe YOUR interpretation of His word is perfect.

Why are you trying to prove to us what we believe, from our own documents? We know what "He preserved Mary from the Stain of original sin" means... And we know that Mary is just as human as the rest of us. You are trying to tell us that we don't "really" believe what we're telling you our beliefs are. Instead, what we "really" believe, is what you're telling us our beliefs are?????

Perhaps you should take your agitation out on the RCC, for in your own words “gave me the holy scripture” and also makes statements that are contrary to what you people say in this forum.

guanophore clearly has a different view about Mary than the Pope and the official RCC position. Is your house divided? I dont know you, all I can do is presume you follow and support the official position of your church. That is that Mary was the sinless for runner (mother) of Christ. Which means that Jesus was born from a perfect human, which means that Jesus was born from sinless man not the flesh of Eve. Jesus never needed to come to us if Mary was without sin.

Romans 3-23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

I’ll edit this for you, The RCC says that this does not include Mary mother of Jesus.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Perhaps you should take your agitation out on the RCC, for in your own words “gave me the holy scripture” and also makes statements that are contrary to what you people say in this forum.

guanophore clearly has a different view about Mary than the Pope and the official RCC position. Is your house divided? I dont know you, all I can do is presume you follow and support the official position of your church. That is that Mary was the sinless for runner (mother) of Christ. Which means that Jesus was born from a perfect human, which means that Jesus was born from sinless man not the flesh of Eve. Jesus never needed to come to us if Mary was without sin.

Romans 3-23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

You’re right. I do follow and support the official position of the church. For the church is the body of Christ. You may read into what is taught and assume that we’re divided, but so long as Christ is Lord, His body, His church will always stand firm. “Even the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” was His promise.

Do you doubt the power of God? Do you think that in His great love and mercy, He could not save Mary, that He could not protect her from sin to be a pure vessel for His son?  Mary is human just as the rest of us, and she was in need of a savior. Her savior is Jesus Christ!

I will choose to believe in the Power and great mercy of God. I will choose to believe in the church that He founded. And I will choose to believe with every last breath of my life, in his Mother, as the Mother of all Christians.

You can read into my beliefs what you like. But she is the only perfect model we have of obience, faithfulness, and love to Christ. I will choose to accept all the gifts our father has lavished upon us. I accept His son, His church, the communion of saints, and I will accept His mother.

 "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" is true. It is referring to original sin.   We are all sinners, we are all in need of God's grace.

But it is through baptism that we are filled with the grace of God to overcome our nature, to overcome original sin. It is through the blood of Christ that we are redeemed from our sinful natures.

It is through the blood of Christ, that mary was redeemed from the moment of her conception.

 

[Leeann]

Hi AshleyBelle:

First of all - hope you’re feeling better!

AshleyBelle
So, you’re saying that in order to see God’s truth, I need to see the scriptures the way YOU do?
Please show me where the scriptures say Leeann teaches all truth without error and I will follow you!

AshleyBelle – you asked me a question – I gave you an answer –sorry if you didn’t like the answer.

original Leeann:
Peter himself never considered himself anything more than, an apostle of Jesus Christ, He knew who the “foundation of the church” was built upon…Christ.

AshleyBelle:
Peter knew that the church was indeed built upon Christ He also knew that the church was built on the apostles and prophets, as Scripture tells us:

Eph.2:19
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

The Church is built on Christ, AND the Apostles, AND, the prophets. It states it very clearly! And if you want to claim once again that in the passage where Christ calls Peter the “Rock” that he isn’t really giving Peter any authority…I have to ask again, why is YOUR interpretation correct, unless you claim to know all spiritual truths without error?

That scripture is so beautiful and true!
His Church is built on HIM – and is living and visible and growing in all true and faithful believers where ever they may be.

Because the there is no resemblance in the Catholic Church as we know it today, or as it developed over the centuries as being the same church – His Church – that the Apostles established.

Or - to take a famous response from guanophore:
We read it differently!

original Leeann:
I’m happy and secure in my beliefs, no fear, perhaps the “very defensive tone” is only from your own perspective for some reason….maybe you’re projecting your own feelings?

AshleyBelle:
My feeling is that no matter what any of us say, you are only going to listen to what you want to listen to. You are not trying to understand what Catholics believe.you are simply trying to tell us that we are WRONG, because you KNOW we’re wrong…and if we defend our belief, and ask you to defend YOUR position, you simply say you don’t need to , because your’e RIGHT!

I’m responding to questions or statements posted back to me – my original opening question of the thread is the topic to be addressed. If there are side issues raised and questions or statements posted…should I ignore and not answer them?
Note: I don’t ever remember actually posting - “I don’t need to, because I’m RIGHT!”
I’ve attempted to answer and respond to every post directed to me – if you don’t like the answers – I’m sorry, but I’ve answered.

original Leeann:
I have considerably more responses and posts to make in replying to posts than you do at this time, so I just try and key in as clearly and succinctly as I can, in the time I can afford. It may come across as abrupt or direct, but it really is just trying to use ‘word economy’.

AshleyBelle:
Being direct and to the point, is different from always returning to “I’m right and your’e wrong, and it’s not worth my time to explain why!”

AshleyBelle – I’ve never stated that – again, I’ve explained why when asked – you just didn’t like my explanation.

AshleyBelle:
If you’re here to convince us of your truth…then take the time to CONVINCE us! Otherwise I’m to assume you’re not really here to help us with our salvation or to understand truth…you’re just here to tell us we’re wrong.
original Leeann:
I don’t feel I have to defend my faith….it’s not in peril.

What part of my “question” that was posted for this thread, indicates to you that I’m here to convince you of anything?

AshleyBelle:
You’re not me, but you are doing EXACTLY what I used to do! You have a very strong faith which is truly a gift from God! But you use that faith as an excuse not to listen when God may very well be trying to REACH you in ways that you’re not ready to hear. And if you’re not ready to hear, then nothing anybody tells you on these forums will matter. Because your faith is more in the fact that you’re RIGHT, than in listening to what God may have yet to reveal for you.

Or – perhaps I am using my faith in exactly the way God wants me too.

 

[Leeann]

original Leeann:
I don’t know AshleyBelle – those are your questions – not mine?

AshleyBelle:
Those were my questions when I learned that faith is not about being RIGHT… it’s about following God and letting God lead beyond my comfort zone. I didn’t listen to ideas about the catholic church and Mary because they made me uncomfortable. Catholics praying to Mary??? That is so WRONG! Why can’t they see it?? I KNOW it’s wrong, because nobody prays to Mary in the Bible! I have Jesus, why would I want to ADD anything to my beliefs??? Those poor Catholics! Dont’ they know the Jesus wants to have a relationship directly with them???
To even FATHOM that Catholics could be practicing their faith more fully than I was, out of sheer devotion to Christ, was OUTSIDE MY comfort zone. So I believed they were wrong, and nothing they said could convince me otherwise.

I repeat – that must have been a terrible for experience for you.

As I stated to utunumsint in a few posts, where he/she listed a number of “needs” that they had – I suggested concentrating and focusing on the very personal and individual relationship with the Lord first and foremost – after all – He is able and capable of meeting all our needs – if we truly believe and allow Him too.