Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Mannyfit75]

By stating that the Catholic church “continues to be faithful to the NT ecclesiology of ONE GUY appointed as chief pastor for the Church universal” – brings to mind the verses in Matthew Chapter 23 – all the woes to the scribes and Pharisees - where Jesus speaks of “religious appearance” and how it is not enough.

– all the woes to the scribes and Pharisees -

Jesus condemned hypocrites who say one thing and contradict another. Second, why do you generalized that just because someone is dress in religious garments as hyprocrites? I tell you there are those who are religious men and women who consecrate themselves totally to God. Indeed there are those who dress in religious garments and commit sin but not all humans are perfect. The call for conversion is always a continuous process.

Even if you read Saint Faustina’s books Divine Mercy Diary, and other writings of the saints. They show nothing but loving God and admit their unworthiness to God.

Do not mock all religious men and women. Tell me are you any more perfect to someone who gave up marriage life for the sake of the kingdom of heaven?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
By stating that the Catholic church “continues to be faithful to the NT ecclesiology of ONE GUY appointed as chief pastor for the Church universal” – brings to mind the verses in Matthew Chapter 23 – all the woes to the scribes and Pharisees - where Jesus speaks of “religious appearance” and how it is not enough.

mannyfit:
Jesus condemned hypocrites who say one thing and contradict another. Second, why do you generalized that just because someone is dress in religious garments as hyprocrites? I tell you there are those who are religious men and women who consecrate themselves totally to God. Indeed there are those who dress in religious garments and commit sin but not all humans are perfect. The call for conversion is always a continuous process.

Even if you read Saint Faustina’s books Divine Mercy Diary, and other writings of the saints. They show nothing but loving God and admit their unworthiness to God.

Do not mock all religious men and women. Tell me are you any more perfect to someone who gave up marriage life for the sake of the kingdom of heaven?

mannyfit - to imply that I am “mocking all religio**us men and women” and thinking I am “*more perfect to some *of them”, in relation to the quote of mine you posted, shows you didn’t understand the context in which it was posted.

 

[Mannyfit75]

mannyfit - to imply that I am “mocking all religio**us men and women” and thinking I am “*more perfect to some *of them”, in relation to the quote of mine you posted, shows you didn’t understand the context in which it was posted.

Then why did you quote Jesus condemning the Pharisees?

 

[Leeann]

Then why did you quote Jesus condemning the Pharisees?

Go back and read my quote and to what it was in response too.

 

[mercygate]

Peter’s statement assumes a knowledge on his part, and on the part of his readers, of what constituted scripture at that time, the OT, and the writings of Paul, and by extension, the writings of the apostles.

Not so, as I said above to Ashley. Scripture doesn’t miraculously become scripture when canonized, but is canonized because it is scripture.

Right.

Scripture is canonized by the Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit who wrote it at the hands of human authors, all of whom were in the Church, writing for the Church. The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit “into all the truth” is the Body that canonized the text. There is absolutely NO way that the role of the Church can be deleted from the process of the canonization of Scripture.

 

[guanophore]

Ja4 seems to have missed a couple of crucial lessons in Catholic teaching (or just prefers to fool you guys by intentionally ignoring them, while hoping you will too) that she.has seen here many times.

Maybe some day she’ll stop trying to get us to ignore what we have repeatedly told her we believe and either become Catholic and/or maybe go start posting over at that main atheistic forum.

I am thinking that one would need better skills and intellect to succeed in an athestic forum. It is much more comfortable and satisfying to remain a gadfly here, and play the game of sending Catholics on useless theological goose chases. It must be very gratifying to lie in wait for new members that are not familiar with the game, and send them running for information that will never be used.

Haven’t seen you in awhile and thought maybe you put me on your ignore list…View attachment 4477

Your fellow catholics here could sure use your help…

Actually I think Manny’s excellent skills and references are much better applied on threads where people are asking genuine questions, and will have eternal benefit from what they learn from him. It is not right for him to cast his pearls before swine.

 

[guanophore]

Yes Paul does speak about himself and is a good example, as are those who the author of Hebrews mentions with regards to having faith – Hebrews 11 –Abel,Enoch,Noah,Sarah,etc.,
They were good examples to compare themselves too, to measure themselves against.

The difference is Paul never told them to pray to/through or commune with these individuals or to any other ‘saints’ that were in heaven as a way to build up their faith or as a way to ‘tap’ into any special graces. None of the Apostles ever did. However they did exhort and point them to Jesus in times of need.

Of course Hebrews 12 mentions Jesus’ example to follow.

You are making a distinction that does not exist. Paul is not separated from all those he names in ch. 11 as examples in the faith, or from Christ, whom he strives to emulate. Paul would point someone no where else but Christ, just as does Mary, and all the Apostles, prophets, and saints. Their will is completely conformed to that of their Lord, and their ministry completely aligned with His. Mary eternally says “do whatever He tells you”, so turning to her results in obedience to Christ.

It is the divinding and “replacing” that gets you off track with a prayer like this. In your mind, somehow, those who have been eternally joined with the Lamb can somehow be divided from Him, and this is not the case.

By stating that the Catholic church “continues to be faithful to the NT ecclesiology of ONE GUY appointed as chief pastor for the Church universal” – brings to mind the verses in Matthew Chapter 23 – all the woes to the scribes and Pharisees - where Jesus speaks of “religious appearance” and how it is not enough.

– all the woes to the scribes and Pharisees -

You will have to help me with this, because I am not making the connection. Jesus took great care to single Peter out, and restore him from his trifold denial, then give him a unique mission and gift. I don’t see that Peter was at all concerned about appearance.

I think that Peter carries the gift which was entrusted to him by Christ with great humility.

 

[sandusky]

Scripture is canonized by the Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit who wrote it at the hands of human authors, all of whom were in the Church, writing for the Church. The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit “into all the truth” is the Body that canonized the text. There is absolutely NO way that the role of the Church can be deleted from the process of the canonization of Scripture.

.
:doh2:.

 

[onenow1]

Interestingly….Peter asked the same question to Jesus as the Pope does in his prayer to Mary…except Peter answers it himself immediately, by expressing that he really knows that there is no one else to turn too…except Jesus.

So – to whom would the Apostles (Peter as an example), if he were standing by the Pope and heard the Pope ask in prayer…… “we will not know to whom to turn”… , to whom would Peter advise him to turn too……Mary….or Jesus?

Hi, Leann;Maybe this will point you to Mary as Jesus pointed John to Mary.

John 19:
25 So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag’dalene.
26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”
27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

Peace,onenow1

 

[sandusky]

AshleyBelle:

Did God directly give us the Bible?

Did Jesus hand us the scriptures before He ascended into heaven?

You know how we got the Bible, Ashley.

AshleyBelle:

Or perhaps, the Holy Spirit, did INFALLIBLY guide the fallible men in the church so that we would have the scriptures God truly inspired in the canon. Either the Holy Spirit was guiding them or it wasn’t… If they weren’t guided, then we don’t have any gurantee that the Bible IS in fact the inspired word of God.

Right.

AshleyBelle:

Why do you assume the Holy Spirit would guide them in FLAWLESSLY compiling the scriptures, and yet NOT guide them when making decisions about doctrine and practices?

Why did He do that with the Jews?

AshleyBelle:

Especially when the traditions/doctrines/practices would EFFECT Christians more directly, considering that even WITH Scriptures, most couldn’t read, and most couldn’t get a copy of the Bible.

That has nothing to do with the canon of Scripture. Scripture teaches that God put men, endowed with various gifts, into the church.

Scripture also teaches that false teachers will arise from within the church.

AshleyBelle:

And I keep bringing up Luther, because he seems to be held right on par with the early church fathers as far as protestants are concerned.

Among theologians, Luther was possibly the greatest, IMO, and, I’m not Lutheran.

The ECF do have the market of Biblical exposition cornered. I appreciate their writings, and, there have been many great theologians since their time, right up to the present day.

 

[utunumsint]

Yes Paul does speak about himself and is a good example, as are those who the author of Hebrews mentions with regards to having faith – Hebrews 11 –Abel,Enoch,Noah,Sarah,etc.,
They were good examples to compare themselves too, to measure themselves against.

I would add that they are also sources of faith and hope because they prove to people what God’s grace can do in a person’s life. They are examples of the transformative power God!! I am not measuring myself against they people, because they way they lived their lives is not something they could have done without the power of God flowing through them like a torent of water! What it does is that it makes me rejoyce that God could do such wonders in a mere mortal. They are my heros in the faith.

The difference is Paul never told them to pray to/through or commune with these individuals or to any other ‘saints’ that were in heaven as a way to build up their faith or as a way to ‘tap’ into any special graces. None of the Apostles ever did. However they did exhort and point them to Jesus in times of need.

Of course Hebrews 12 mentions Jesus’ example to follow.

When the first Christian scriptures were being written, there was a common expectation that the world would end any day. The saints were all alive. But as more and more of them began to pass away, being martyred, etc… and Paul’s doctrine of the body of Christ began to take hold, people started to venerate the memory of these heros of the faith. They would write inscriptions in tombs like, St. Peter or St. Paul, pray for us, etc… They had a keen awareness that those who died in Christ in baptism were alive in Christ even through they died. So they felt that death was no obstacle to this communion of and with the saints. Veneration of the burial places of martyrs became wide spread early on. The place where Peter and Paul were buried was known very early on. We have documented evidence of people visiting and celebrating the Eucharist at these site from as early as the beginning of the second century. This was very important to them, especially during times of persecution. You even find emperor Decius ordering the bodies of martyrs burned to ashes so that the Christian communities could not venerate their remains. What this development in doctrine represented was a firm hope in the resurection, they existence and survival of souls after death, and the unity of the body of Christ even after martyrdom of its individual members.

In my own experience, I’ve studied secular history as presented by secular institutions, and this was always an obstacle to my faith. But over the last three years I have systematically studied all the canonized saints and situated them in their historical context, and it has provided me with a perspective on history that I never had before. One filed with light and hope, and the grace filled witnesses of all the saints from 0 AD to today!! They are living witnesses to the power of God active in history and moving through the events of the ages with a guiding hand. They provide glimpses to what heaven will be like, among so many brothers and sisters in Christ. I for one can’t wait to join them and to behold the lamb of God.

God bless,
Ut

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Haven’t seen you in awhile and thought maybe you put me on your ignore list…Attachment 4477

Your fellow catholics here could sure use your help…

Realcatholicgk
Even ChurchMilitant needs a break from you guys! Ref the OP~
To whom would the Apostles have pointed the Pope …Mary or Jesus? To Mary so she could intercede for the Pope to her son!

:sad_yes:

 

[guanophore]

the OP~
To whom would the Apostles have pointed the Pope …Mary or Jesus? To Mary so she could intercede for the Pope to her son!

:sad_yes:

I am surprised you would agree with this!

 

[justasking4]

the OP~
To whom would the Apostles have pointed the Pope …Mary or Jesus? To Mary so she could intercede for the Pope to her son!

I am surprised you would agree with this!

i was referring to “Even ChurchMilitant needs a break from you guys! Ref the OP~”

 

[mercygate]

AshleyBelle:

Why do you assume the Holy Spirit would guide [the Jews] in FLAWLESSLY compoiling the scriptures, and yet NOT guide them when makng decisions about doctrine and practices?

sandusky:

Why did He do that with the Jews?

He did not. At the time of Christ, the Jewish canon was far from closed. The Sadducees accepted only the Torah. There was general consensus concerning “the writings” but no formal concept of a hard canon. People often cite the date of 90 A.D. as the date of the closing of the Jewish canon. In fact, the evidence for Jamnia is exceedingly slim, and debates over the canon occur into the late 2nd century, when the canon was finally closed, omitting books, such as Sirach, because they were known to be used by Christians.

I find it compelling FOR the acceptance of the divine inspiration of the Deuterocanonical books that the Jews rejected them at such a late date at least partly on the grounds that they were in use among Christians.

 

[sandusky]

He did not. At the time of Christ, the Jewish canon was far from closed. The Sadducees accepted only the Torah. There was general consensus concerning “the writings” but no formal concept of a hard canon. People often cite the date of 90 A.D. as the date of the closing of the Jewish canon. In fact, the evidence for Jamnia is exceedingly slim, and debates over the canon occur into the late 2nd century, when the canon was finally closed, omitting books, such as Sirach, because they were known to be used by Christians.

I find it compelling FOR the acceptance of the divine inspiration of the Deuterocanonical books that the Jews rejected them at such a late date at least partly on the grounds that they were in use among Christians.

This has nothing to do with my question.

 

[mercygate]

This has nothing to do with my question.

My apologies if I misunderstood your question in the back-and-forth of quote blocks. I understood your question to be (my paraphrase):

“Why did God infallibly guide the Jews to form the OT canon.”

 

[MerickOWA]

You know how we got the Bible, Ashley.

If you want to claim the the scriptures came from God, then you must admit that the human influence in their assembly & writing was also influenced by God.

Why did He do that with the Jews?

Scripture also teaches that false teachers will arise from within the church.

Is it your opinion that the Jews were teaching heresy because God had not protected their doctrines from corruption? If this is the case why would Jesus instruct the crowd and disciples “do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you”? Wouldn’t this indicate that Jewish doctrine and traditions had NOT been corrupted. Otherwise, wouldn’t Jesus have been asking them to follow heresy? The key to understanding this passage is the previous verse where it says “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.” This means they were about to speak from their position with authority!

This is exactly the same in the Catholic Church. When the Church speaks with Authority, it is infallible and without error and is to be “done and observed” just as the Bible commands. When a member the Church attempts to put forth their own ideas WITHOUT the Church Authority backing them up, It is NOT to be considered a teaching of the church and COULD be a teaching/tradition of man which contradicts the Church.

Among theologians, Luther was possibly the greatest, IMO, and, I’m not Lutheran.

Theologians do not speak with authority, nor can any Protestant verify that their teachings come from the Bible. Indeed many Protestants reject some of things Luther believed such as Christ’s real presence in the Eucharist.

Claiming that everyone must read Bible and find the truth for themselves begs the question, where is this idea taught in the Bible? This is NOT the understanding of the ECF nor is it the Biblical understanding. The ECF and Church always understood that their authority to teach always came from God through his chosen apostles. It was He who choses the Jewish people and setup their priesthood/authority, and it was God who chose the disciples and setup their priesthood/authority.

How can there be any understanding of the Bible without true teachers?

 

[sandusky]

MerickOWA:

If you want to claim the the scriptures came from God, then you must admit that the human influence in their assembly & writing was also influenced by God.

I’ve never denied it.

MerickOWA:

Is it your opinion that the Jews were teaching heresy because God had not protected their doctrines from corruption? If this is the case why would Jesus instruct the crowd and disciples “do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you”? Wouldn’t this indicate that Jewish doctrine and traditions had NOT been corrupted. Otherwise, wouldn’t Jesus have been asking them to follow heresy? The key to understanding this passage is the previous verse where it says “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.” This means they were about to speak from their position with authority!

Moses’ seat represents the teaching authority of those responsible for interpreting the laws of Moses v3. After 15:1–20 it would be surprising if Jesus really meant that everything in the teaching of the Scribes and Pharisees must be obeyed. The balance of the sentence falls rather on the second half: ‘Do what they say, if it’s consistent with the law , but don’t do what they do, because much of what they did, added to the law, and was inconsistent with the law, thus heaping burdens on the people that God did not endorse v4.

Jesus then continues with the pronouncement of 8 woes against the hypocritical Scribes and Pharisees (vv13-36).

MerickOWA:

This is exactly the same in the Catholic Church.

Correct.

MerickOWA:

When the Church speaks with Authority, it is infallible and without error and is to be “done and observed” just as the Bible commands. When a member the Church attempts to put forth their own ideas WITHOUT the Church Authority backing them up, It is NOT to be considered a teaching of the church and COULD be a teaching/tradition of man which contradicts the Church.

As long as what is taught carries the authority and support of Scripture, as Christ Himself stated.

MerickOWA:

Theologians do not speak with authority, nor can any Protestant verify that their teachings come from the Bible. Indeed many Protestants reject some of things Luther believed such as Christ’s real presence in the Eucharist.

Claiming that everyone must read Bible and find the truth for themselves begs the question, where is this idea taught in the Bible? This is NOT the understanding of the ECF nor is it the Biblical understanding. The ECF and Church always understood that their authority to teach always came from God through his chosen apostles. It was He who choses the Jewish people and setup their priesthood/authority, and it was God who chose the disciples and setup their priesthood/authority.

How can there be any understanding of the Bible without true teachers?

Don’t forget to read the woes.

 

[sandusky]

MerickOWA:

What proof is there that these practices Jesus condemned were taught from the chair of Moses?

V 2, 3 & 4.

MerickOWA:

They were certainly taught by the Pharisees & Scribes, but the question is where they taught from the authority of the Chair of Moses.

According to Christ, they were.

MerickOWA:

Catholics understand that those with authority don’t necessarily always live up to that authority (unfortunately). However, (fortunately) they wont exercise that authority to declare their personal teachings as official teaching.

They personally make their teachings official.

MerickOWA:

Theres lots of Scripture to show that the Jewish leaders had problems with SOME of their practices. Obviously the Tradition of the “chair of Moses” was NOT condemned by Jesus. No where in “reading the Scriptures” would you have found a reference to such a chair. So how can we use THAT as the method for testing “traditions” to see if they’re from man or God?

In Mt 15:1:11, and Mk 7:6-13, Jesus uses the scripture to condemn the Jews “traditions.”