Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

I think the “wrong” that is seen here relates to the objection of elevating human beings to the ministry of reconciliation. Since Jesus is our One Mediator, there is some perception that we should go to “Jesus only” and not approach through others, or in any way facilitated by others, which seems to “take away from” the primacy of Christ.

Trying to wade through all the posts and just saw this one of yours - that’s kind of what I meant in post #849 about halfway down I think.

 

[Ag_not]

The “training in discipleship” in any church of His, **should not be any different than what was necessary and taught by His Apostles **when they established those first churches.

Anything else is superfluous and ineffectual.

And anything left out is a cheap reproduction - looks good, lacks quality, and doesn’t hold up to close inspection

 

[mercygate]

Might it have something to do with the super duper, quadalooper, hyper - skyper veneration that has developed over the centuries with regards to Mary?

Everybody gets cranky with me when I suggest that in some places there ARE abuses of Marian devotion rampant on the ground. Much of this is culturally conditioned. As Newman said 150 years ago (Drat!I can’t find the quote.), ‘such devotions may be suited for Italy but not in England.’

 

[Leeann]

Sorry…about all the posts …I’ll shut up for awhile now.

 

[mercygate]

Imagine that!
The middle class being able too, by God’s mercy and grace, have a personal relationship with Jesus. How complicated it must have been for the Catholic Church, when people were able to read and understand, again by the grace of God what His word actually says and means.

If history over the past 500 years has taught us anything it is that people still cannot pick up a Bible and know what it actually says and means. Go talk to a JW.

To think that a collection of diverse records written over a period of 1800 years is self-revealing to anyone who picks it up is either naive or arrogant. I’m not voting in that election.

 

[mercygate]

But the Catholic Church doesn’t follow that…what Mary said. “Do whatever He tells you”.

If it did – the Pope would be praying publicly and demonstrating his and the Catholic Church’s faith in Jesus…not Mary.

This statement suggests that you do not have a good acquaintance with the work and thought of the present Pontiff.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

God was the first one to venerate Mary. Why is it wrong to follow His lead? Some people must imagine that Jesus just fell out of the sky. To honor Mary does not dishonor either the Father or His Son.

We know that Jesus is the only Mediator. But that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t use intermediaries in a relative sense? Weren’t the prophets? Aren’t Christians supposed to be subsitutes for Christ? 2 Cor. 5:20 Why are people so upset that God used Mary in the past and still uses her today? Should I ignore the writings of Paul or the other New Testament writers because I’m supposed to believe in “Jesus only”?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The problem is not something that can be put into the typically ‘black and white’ accusations (or, perhaps we can use the less loaded term of ‘assertions’) in which you typically engage in, Leeann.

That IMO is the real difficulty you are having, not only with “the Catholic Church” but with any group/individual which might hold differing opinions from you.

I’m trying to phrase this delicately and charitably while also being as accurate in my presentation as possible.

If everything is always to come down to an ‘either/or’. . .you’re always going to wind up ‘less than correct’ no matter what you pick. That’s why you’ll find that the authoritative Catholic teachings (as opposed to some individual Catholics) are so careful to present totality and a ‘both-and’ way of consideration of topics.

You don’t find authentic Catholic teaching saying, "Catholicism is truth and Protestantism is a lie’. “Either/or”.

The authentic teaching–which has often been cited here–from the CCC is that Catholicism is the whole truth, and Protestantism contains some of that truth, often a very great deal of that truth. “Both/and”. . .Both have truth, one greater (total), one lesser but still truth. Not an “either you’re with us or you’re agin us” which again I see in all too many Protestant arguments.

Either you’re ‘totally Jesus in the way that WE demand it’ or you’re not really Christiain, seems to be their argument. . . never the concept that we as Catholics could be totally Jesus in our focus AND also be able to consider Mary as being rather special. . .blessed. Unless our praise is so tepid as to be virtually nonexistent (as you demand it to be), you call it ‘super duper, hyper, etc.’

Well, there is a very sizeable group of Catholics who somehow manage to worship God alone yet praise Mary without ever once thinking of her as part of the Trinity or a goddess. However, unless we kowtow to the tyranny of the few and express ourselves to your demands, we are accused of being ‘mariolaters’ by** your definition, your standards, your opinion . **What you’re doing, in essence, is determining that anything other than your own opinion is wrong, that your 400 year old standards should be retroactively applied to our 2000 year teachings and supersede them, thus effectively substituting your teachings for ours and demanding we adhere to them.

It isn’t going to happen.

 

[Leeann]

God was the first one to venerate Mary. Why is it wrong to follow His lead? Some people must imagine that Jesus just fell out of the sky. To honor Mary does not dishonor either the Father or His Son.

I agree Claude, however to develop a whole theology and teaching around Mary, to the extent that the Catholic Church has done over the centuries, for some followers, it has taken their focus from them.

Claude Kenneson:

We know that Jesus is the only Mediator. But that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t use intermediaries in a relative sense? Weren’t the prophets? Aren’t Christians supposed to be subsitutes for Christ? 2 Cor. 5:20 Why are people so upset that God used Mary in the past and still uses her today? Should I ignore the writings of Paul or the other New Testament writers because I’m supposed to believe in “Jesus only”?

There’s nothing wrong with believing in Jesus only for your salvation.

 

[Leeann]

The problem is not something that can be put into the typically ‘black and white’ accusations (or, perhaps we can use the less loaded term of ‘assertions’) in which you typically engage in, Leeann.

That IMO is the real difficulty you are having, not only with “the Catholic Church” but with any group/individual which might hold differing opinions from you.

I’m trying to phrase this delicately and charitably while also being as accurate in my presentation as possible.

If everything is always to come down to an ‘either/or’. . .you’re always going to wind up ‘less than correct’ no matter what you pick. That’s why you’ll find that the authoritative Catholic teachings (as opposed to some individual Catholics) are so careful to present totality and a ‘both-and’ way of consideration of topics.

You don’t find authentic Catholic teaching saying, "Catholicism is truth and Protestantism is a lie’. “Either/or”.

The authentic teaching–which has often been cited here–from the CCC is that Catholicism is the whole truth, and Protestantism contains some of that truth, often a very great deal of that truth. “Both/and”. . .Both have truth, one greater (total), one lesser but still truth. Not an “either you’re with us or you’re agin us” which again I see in all too many Protestant arguments.

Either you’re ‘totally Jesus in the way that WE demand it’ or you’re not really Christiain, seems to be their argument. . . never the concept that we as Catholics could be totally Jesus in our focus AND also be able to consider Mary as being rather special. . .blessed. Unless our praise is so tepid as to be virtually nonexistent (as you demand it to be), you call it ‘super duper, hyper, etc.’

Well, there is a very sizeable group of Catholics who somehow manage to worship God alone yet praise Mary without ever once thinking of her as part of the Trinity or a goddess. However, unless we kowtow to the tyranny of the few and express ourselves to your demands, we are accused of being ‘mariolaters’ by** your definition, your standards, your opinion . **What you’re doing, in essence, is determining that anything other than your own opinion is wrong, that your 400 year old standards should be retroactively applied to our 2000 year teachings and supersede them, thus effectively substituting your teachings for ours and demanding we adhere to them.

It isn’t going to happen.

And this would all be your opinion?

 

[Leeann]

If history over the past 500 years has taught us anything it is that people still cannot pick up a Bible and know what it actually says and means. Go talk to a JW.

To think that a collection of diverse records written over a period of 1800 years is self-revealing to anyone who picks it up is either naive or arrogant. I’m not voting in that election.

Naive or arrogant…or perhaps humbly putting your faith in God and the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Good_Fella]

But this particular prayer is not part of the Pope’s “personal prayer life” – this particular prayer was done very “publicly” and therefore has an influence on those attending this service and an influence on the example he is setting……by praying to Mary……and stating he ‘wouldn’t know where to turn too’ if she would not help.

“And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment ‘the sound of your greeting’ reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.”
Luke 1, 43-44

Of all the saints who intercede for us by their prayers and actions Mary is the greatest and most influential by virtue of her Divine Maternity and privileged position as Mother of the Church (cf. Jn 19:26-27). If she could not help us, for everything depends on the will of God when we pray to him, then naturally no other saint could be invoked with any hope of success. Pope Benedict is referring to Mary with respect to her supreme position in the order of grace among the saints and all Christ’s disciples. If Jesus would deny his mother her requests, then obviously no other saint could help us. There would be no other human being we could hopefully turn to for their intercessory prayers. I’m afraid you have taken Pope Benedict’s words out of context. :tsktsk:

“Let us entrust ourselves with all our souls affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin: let us all, with all our strength, beg her patronage, that, at the moment when on earth we surround her with our suppliant homage, she herself may deign in heaven to commend us with fervent prayer. For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, can more than all the saints benefit by her favor those who have received deliverance.”
Ambrose Autpert, Assumption of the Virgin (ante A.D. 778)

By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and…wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed she is the "exemplary realization (typus) of the Church.
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 967]

“This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.”
Lumen Gentium 62

“Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men…flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”
Lumen Gentium 60

PAX

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

I agree Claude, however to develop a whole theology and teaching around Mary, to the extent that the Catholic Church has done over the centuries, for some followers, it has taken their focus from them.

There’s nothing wrong with believing in Jesus only for your salvation.

I believe in Jesus only for my salvation, but I’m not naive to think that God doesn’t use humans to proclaim that message. Why would anyone bother to preach to anyone else unless he/she believed that Jesus was also using him/her? Now if Jesus can use you/me, why can’t He use Mary or whomever else He chooses? It doesn’t detract from Jesus at all. He might not be dependent on us, but He doesn’t seem bothered by using humans as instruments.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

"
Of all the saints who intercede for us by their prayers and actions Mary is the greatest and most influential by virtue of her Divine Maternity and privileged position as Mother of the Church (cf. Jn 19:26-27). If she could not help us, for everything depends on the will of God when we pray to him, then naturally no other saint could be invoked with any hope of success. Pope Benedict is referring to Mary with respect to her supreme position in the order of grace among the saints and all Christ’s disciples. If Jesus would deny his mother her requests, then obviously no other saint could help us. There would be no other human being we could hopefully turn to for their intercessory prayers. I’m afraid you have taken Pope Benedict’s words out of context. :tsktsk:

PAX

I wonder if Leeann has ever heard of the Pope’s book on Jesus. Does it seem like he’s ignoring Him?

See

amazon.com/Jesus-Nazareth-Pope-Benedict-XVI/dp/0385523416

 

[Leeann]

Goodfella:
Of all the saints who intercede for us by their prayers and actions Mary is the greatest and most influential by virtue of her Divine Maternity and privileged position as Mother of the Church (cf. Jn 19:26-27).

Once again – these verses in John in no way indicate that Mary has the “privileged position as Mother of any church.

Goodfella:

If she could not help us, for everything depends on the will of God when we pray to him, then naturally no other saint could be invoked with any hope of success.

Perhaps going directly to Him in prayer in the name of Jesus would be or more assurance?

Goodfella:

Pope Benedict is referring to Mary with respect to her supreme position in the order of grace among the saints and all Christ’s disciples. If Jesus would deny his mother her requests, then obviously no other saint could help us. There would be no other human being we could hopefully turn to for their intercessory prayers. I’m afraid you have taken Pope Benedict’s words out of context. :tsktsk:

It’s not a matter of taking his words out of context……it’s the point that he’s turning to Mary in the first place.

“Let us entrust ourselves with all our souls affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin: let us all, with all our strength, beg her patronage, that, at the moment when on earth we surround her with our suppliant homage, she herself may deign in heaven to commend us with fervent prayer. For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, can more than all the saints benefit by her favor those who have received deliverance.”
Ambrose Autpert, Assumption of the Virgin (ante A.D. 778)

Jesus and the Apostles certainly made no reference to this.

By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and…wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed she is the "exemplary realization (typus) of the Church.
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 967]

“This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.”
Lumen Gentium 62

“Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men…flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”
Lumen Gentium 60

Beliefs of the Catholic Church….as the theology was developed over the centuries.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

I agree Claude, however to develop a whole theology and teaching around Mary, to the extent that the Catholic Church has done over the centuries, for some followers, it has taken their focus from them.

There’s nothing wrong with believing in Jesus only for your salvation.

Jesus uses humans, angels and heaven’s saints as instruments. You would seem to prefer that He communicate with us directly. That does happen to some, like St. Paul, but for the majority of us, not so. We come to Christ through someone else.

 

[Ag_not]

I agree Claude, however to develop a whole theology and teaching around Mary, to the extent that the Catholic Church has done over the centuries, for some followers, it has taken their focus from them.

Have you directly asked these ‘‘followers’’ if they have lost their focus? Or are you making assumptions on what you think you are observing.

Not meant to sound confrontational - genuine question.

 

[prayerwarrior17]

…we should pray to GOD the Father through Holy spirit in JESUS name…GOD BLESS…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Actually, there is wrong in believing in Jesus alone. I mean, the Father and the Spirit are part of the Trinity too, aren’t they? If you’re focusing on “Jesus” alone, you’re diminishing God by two-thirds. But I know that as Christians in saying, “Jesus” you are automatically saying “Father and Spirit” too. And saying “Father” you say “Son and Spirit”. God is a Trinity.

Now, you see how the use of what seems a perfectly innocent phrase in which YOU understood that Jesus = Father = Son all three being God, but Jesus also being Son, Jesus being the Second Person of the Trinity, Jesus being fully man as well as fully God could be miscontrued and misunderstood (and it is by Muslims, anyway) as making Jesus ‘part’ God, or making it appear as though Jesus acted ‘separately’ from the Father or the Spirit.

So I’m sure you don’t separate Jesus from God the Father and the Spirit, Leeann. . . .but it seems while you don’t have trouble with that, you do separate Jesus from His Church and from His people. As the Body of Christ, we are supposed to be One in the Lord ourselves. . .and that means Mary is One in Him, isn’t she? She isn’t God (neither are we) but aren’t we One in Christ? Doesn’t St. John say that?

So Catholics not only don’t separate God into three distinct ‘gods’. . .we also don’t separate Christians from God either.

Now I don’t think you’re a ‘total depravity’ Calvinist, but I do think that perhaps you are more on the "unconscious, invisible’ Church side. . .in which Christians who die either exist on some high inhuman ‘astral plane’ in which they forget about anything ‘human’ and are simply swallowed up in some mysterious ‘other’, or are totally ‘unconcious’, have absolutely no kind of knowledge of themselves or others, especially on earth, and just sort of drift along, neither dead nor alive.

So in order to get some clarity, can you tell me what happens to a Christian who has died. . .and please give the Scripture that supports your view and the requisite apostolic sanction that shows that the apostles taught this from AD 33 on. . .

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

…we should pray to GOD the Father through Holy spirit in JESUS name…GOD BLESS…

Does that mean it’s wrong if I ask you, or any Christian, or Mary to pray for me?