Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

Jesus uses humans, angels and heaven’s saints as instruments. You would seem to prefer that He communicate with us directly. That does happen to some, like St. Paul, but for the majority of us, not so. We come to Christ through someone else.

And once you come to Christ, believe and repent and accept that He is your Lord and Savior, your mediator….your High Priest…willing and able to hear and answer your prayers….whom do you turn too…to whom did the Apostles teach that believers should turn too?

Heb 4 : 14 – 16

14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.
16 Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid.

 

[Leeann]

Have you directly asked these ‘‘followers’’ if they have lost their focus? Or are you making assumptions on what you think you are observing.

Not meant to sound confrontational - genuine question.

Not at all, I understand what you mean Ag not.
Never a mention of Jesus/God – totally focused on Mary – in conversation as well as in the “visible” affects within their homes ie: pictures/statues/prayer cards.

 

[Leeann]

…we should pray to GOD the Father through Holy spirit in JESUS name…GOD BLESS…

Amen…thanks for responding.

 

[guanophore]

I didn’t bring it up – AshleyBelle did.
Personally I have no problem with either, both bring to mind the sacrifice that took place,
my comments were in regards to leaving Him on it **and not **acknowledging that He is indeed a “risen Savior”…our High Priest.

This is a common Protestant error, and it is not surprising to see it made on this subject. For Catholics, it is both/and, not either/or.

The formulation this “and not” that is common from the children of the Reformation. The fruit of the Reformation is division and separation. For Catholics, the crucifix embodies the gospel message, death, burial, resurrection.

1 Cor 1:23-25
“… but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength.”

Well – that is how you see a plain cross….as being meaningless…. I and many others see it differently.

I do not see it as meaningless. I do think the corpus on the cross is more poignant, but I would never devalue the empty cross. This is a high point of the Liturgical year for us, when the empty cross is kept in the center of the Church during the Easter season.

I do remember the Trinity – 3 in one – yet distinct….not 4.

Indeed! Among the best evidence that the Church considers Mary a creature, “and not” part of the divine.

But the Catholic Church doesn’t follow that…what Mary said. “Do whatever He tells you”.

If it did – the Pope would be praying publicly and demonstrating his and the Catholic Church’s faith in Jesus…not Mary.

I think you have misunderstood and misjudged the Pope’s prayer. He is Catholic. Christ is the Center and Source of his faith. He is devoted to Mary, because she always is saying “do whatever He tells you”. Priests have dedicated their lives to the Kingdom, and make themselves eunuchs for the sake of Christ. They need His mother in their lives so that they can conform their lives to His. This is why He was so generous to share her.

I just watched a great enactment of the NT on Trinity Broadcasting Network. It showed the Magi, interestingly travelling separately (a construction that had not occurred to me previously) finding Jesus, and bowing down before Him. He was in His mothers arms, right at her breast. This is the role that God chose for her. The Magi were not deterred from doing Him homage because she was in Mary’s arms. This is how He came into the world, and this is how He left it…in her arms. She does not detract from Him, but holds HIm for us.

 

[guanophore]

But this particular prayer is not part of the Pope’s “personal prayer life” – this particular prayer was done very “publicly” and therefore has an influence on those attending this service and an influence on the example he is setting……by praying to Mary……and stating he ‘wouldn’t know where to turn too’ if she would not help.

Clearly his personal prayer has certainly disturbed you a great deal. One has to wonder why this is.

But the Catholic Church doesn’t follow that…what Mary said. “Do whatever He tells you”.

If it did – the Pope would be praying publicly and demonstrating his and the Catholic Church’s faith in Jesus…not Mary.

I am sure you are right. Those who separate Jesus from the arms of Mary will certainly not be able to grasp that she brings HIm to us, in His birth, and in His death. When the Pope expresses His faith in Mary, it is not separated somehow from faith in Christ, anymore than the Magi were honoring Him “separate” from her. “and not” is the fruit of the Reformation.

I am puzzled why you wish to add “extra significance” to Mary from them.

For us, there is no addition. We understand them from the mindset of those who wrote the passages. We recieve our faith from the Apostolic Teachings. Our interpretation of the passages is filtered through the Teachings of those who wrote the passages, and that is why we see it differently.

Obviously you don’t C – my quote was in reference to Holy Spirit never leaving the Apostles – not the Catholic Church. But with regards to Mary benefiting from the unity of the Apostles and the HS……of course she would, just as the other women did.

Somehow you see that the unity of the Apostles in the HS is not the same as the Catholic Church. This is incorrect. There is only One Spirit, One Body, One Baptism, One Church. The word “Catholic” comes from “throughout the whole”, meaning that it is the same belief and practice throughout the whole world.

The Holy Spirit has never left His Church – the body of true and faithful believers, wherever they may worship.

Well, at least we are in agreement about something!

Personally, I have no doubt that you guan and some others in here that have posted actually do understand and follow this in truth and faith, however based on what the Catholic Church teaches, ALL of what it teaches, especially in regards to Mary and what is evident from it’s “public image” - separate societies with the focus based on her – public shrines devoted to her – the Pope praying and dedicating the world – to her - the message you posted above becomes obscure………you see what I mean?

I do, Leeann. In the area where I live, there are some who consider Our Lady of Guadelupe as the Goddess, and they worship her as such. I know there are abuses, and improper practices. The example you have given as your motive for coming here is a good one.

The “training in discipleship” in any church of His, should not be any different than what was necessary and taught by His Apostles when they established those first churches.

Well, yes and no. Certainly we live in a very different world than the Apostles. They could never have conceived of some things that we consider common today. I agree, though, the principles have not, and should not, change.
Leeann;4471932:

Anything else is superfluous and ineffectual.

If you find Mary “superluous and ineffectual”, this is certainly your perogative. Many of us have found Jesus’ gift of His mother to the Church as a great and valuable gift, and we are very grateful.

 

[Leeann]

Tantum ergo:
Actually, there is wrong in believing in Jesus alone. I mean, the Father and the Spirit are part of the Trinity too, aren’t they? If you’re focusing on “Jesus” alone, you’re diminishing God by two-thirds. But I know that as Christians in saying, “Jesus” you are automatically saying “Father and Spirit” too. And saying “Father” you say “Son and Spirit”. God is a Trinity.

Now, you see how the use of what seems a perfectly innocent phrase in which YOU understood that Jesus = Father = Son all three being God, but Jesus also being Son, Jesus being the Second Person of the Trinity, Jesus being fully man as well as fully God could be miscontrued and misunderstood (and it is by Muslims, anyway) as making Jesus ‘part’ God, or making it appear as though Jesus acted ‘separately’ from the Father or the Spirit.

So I’m sure you don’t separate Jesus from God the Father and the Spirit, Leeann. . . .but it seems while you don’t have trouble with that, you do separate Jesus from His Church and from His people. As the Body of Christ, we are supposed to be One in the Lord ourselves. . .and that means Mary is One in Him, isn’t she? She isn’t God (neither are we) but aren’t we One in Christ? Doesn’t St. John say that?

So Catholics not only don’t separate God into three distinct ‘gods’. . .we also don’t separate Christians from God either.

I don’t separate Jesus from His church – His church being all true and faithful believers where ever they may worship – we are all one in Him.

Tantum ergo:
Now I don’t think you’re a ‘total depravity’ Calvinist, but I do think that perhaps you are more on the "unconscious, invisible’ Church side. . .in which Christians who die either exist on some high inhuman ‘astral plane’ in which they forget about anything ‘human’ and are simply swallowed up in some mysterious ‘other’, or are totally ‘unconcious’, have absolutely no kind of knowledge of themselves or others, especially on earth, and just sort of drift along, neither dead nor alive.

My goodness, what an imagination you have! :whacky:

Tantum ergo:
So in order to get some clarity, can you tell me what happens to a Christian who has died. . .and please give the Scripture that supports your view and the requisite apostolic sanction that shows that the apostles taught this from AD 33 on. . .

A bit off topic – but I’ll give it a shot –

I believe that a Christian will be with Jesus….just as He promised the criminal who was crucified beside Him – Luke 23:V40-43.

As for “apostolic sanction” – I’ll refer to 2 Cor.Ch 5

5 Now he that maketh us for this very thing, is God, who hath given us the pledge of the Spirit.
6 Therefore having always confidence, knowing that, while we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, and not by sight.
8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 And therefore we labour, whether absent or present, to please him.
10 For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

 

[Leeann]

****Originally Posted by Leeann ****
I didn’t bring it up – AshleyBelle did.
Personally I have no problem with either, both bring to mind the sacrifice that took place,
my comments were in regards to leaving Him on it and not acknowledging that He is indeed a “risen Savior”…our High Priest

Response guanophore:
This is a common Protestant error, and it is not surprising to see it made on this subject. For Catholics, it is both/and, not either/or.

The formulation this “and not” that is common from the children of the Reformation. The fruit of the Reformation is division and separation. For Catholics, the crucifix embodies the gospel message, death, burial, resurrection.
1 Cor 1:23-25
“… but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength.”

Have no idea how this relates to what my quote was originally regarding?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
But the Catholic Church doesn’t follow that…what Mary said. “Do whatever He tells you”.

If it did – the Pope would be praying publicly and demonstrating his and the Catholic Church’s faith in Jesus…not Mary.

Response guanophore:

I think you have misunderstood and misjudged the Pope’s prayer. He is Catholic. Christ is the Center and Source of his faith. He is devoted to Mary, because she always is saying “do whatever He tells you”. Priests have dedicated their lives to the Kingdom, and make themselves eunuchs for the sake of Christ. They need His mother in their lives so that they can conform their lives to His. This is why He was so generous to share her.

They need Mary in their lives so that they can conform their lives to His???
You are not serious?
Where does the working of the Holy Spirit come into play…or does it???

guanophore:

I just watched a great enactment of the NT on Trinity Broadcasting Network. It showed the Magi, interestingly travelling separately (a construction that had not occurred to me previously) finding Jesus, and bowing down before Him. He was in His mothers arms, right at her breast. This is the role that God chose for her. The Magi were not deterred from doing Him homage because she was in Mary’s arms. This is how He came into the world, and this is how He left it…in her arms. She does not detract from Him, but holds HIm for us.

That sounds very poetic and nice…. “*This is *how He left it…in her arms…….” however the truth is He died on the cross – and when He ascended into heaven…Mary wasn’t even there.

As for her “holding Him” for us……???..He’s sitting on His throne.

 

[RobinSebas]

Not at all, I understand what you mean Ag not.
Never a mention of Jesus/God – totally focused on Mary – in conversation as well as in the “visible” affects within their homes ie: pictures/statues/prayer cards.

Leeann, when you want to get a clearer understanding of how we worship, please join us in the Mass. We mostly worship there.

 

[RobinSebas]

LeeAnn, did you say yes to Jesus? If you did, did that change your life? If your life has been changed by Jesus has anybody been inspired by it to come to Jesus? And if you are with Jesus has anybody ever asked you to pray for them?

 

[RobinSebas]

Mary set out and traveled to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her would be fulfilled!”

When the Holy Spirit has honored Mary, I follow too.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

As for “apostolic sanction” – I’ll refer to 2 Cor.Ch 5

5 Now he that maketh us for this very thing, is God, who hath given us the pledge of the Spirit.
6 Therefore having always confidence, knowing that, while we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, and not by sight.
8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 And therefore we labour, whether absent or present, to please him.
10 For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

I fail to see how this has anything to do with apostolic succession.

Sure we are all one body and Christians and will be judged by Christ. But that doesn’t nullify the fact that in the body, there are certain ones with different roles put there by Christ as number one, two, three etc. 1 Cor. 12:28-30

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

They need Mary in their lives so that they can conform their lives to His???
You are not serious?
Where does the working of the Holy Spirit come into play…or does it???

Did you ever bring anyone to Christ? Did the person that you led to Christ need you or not to conform their lives to His??? So, if Christ needs you, why would He not need Mary or any other saint who followed Him? And once you/they die, does He no longer need you/they?

St. Paul went on to say to his listeners " to become imitators of me." 1 Cor. 4:16 and Phil. 3:17 Was he being presumptuous? Did the Holy Spirit come into play?

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

And once you come to Christ, believe and repent and accept that He is your Lord and Savior, your mediator….your High Priest…willing and able to hear and answer your prayers….whom do you turn too…to whom did the Apostles teach that believers should turn too?

Heb 4 : 14 – 16

14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.
16 Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid.

So once someone comes to Christ, he/she should discard the person who led him/her? On the contrary, I would think that one would esteem him/her highly. And I would certainly not stop from asking him/her to intercede for me.

 

[guanophore]

They need Mary in their lives so that they can conform their lives to His???
You are not serious?
Where does the working of the Holy Spirit come into play…or does it???

I am not a priest, or a monk, but I have heard many of them speak about how much it has helped them to have the mother of the Lord in their lives. The HS chooses to work through Mary. This is part of God’s design for His Kingdom. He overshadowed her,and Christ was conceived within her. She dedicated her whole life to His service, holding Him in her arms from the moment He emerged into the world to the day he left it. She cared for his needs, feeding Him, changing His diaper, making his clothes, mending, washing, etc. She went on the road with Him and served Him and His Apostles while they were in school. Afterwards, she supported them with her prayers, and her service I am sure. I am equally sure that the HS works through your life in the same way. Our gospel reading on Sunday was about how the HS works through us…“when I was hungry, you gave me to eat”…

That sounds very poetic and nice…. “*This is *how He left it…in her arms…….” however the truth is He died on the cross – and when He ascended into heaven…Mary wasn’t even there.

Yes, of course! She waited at the foot of the cross, and received His body when it was taken down. The next of kin was allowed to be at the cross. The rest had to stand off at a distance, so they would not attempt to take the person down before they died.

I have always found it interesting that there is no record of Mary going to the tomb, or having any interest in the tomb. I wonder if Christ appeared to her privately after His resurrection, or if maybe she was the only one who really believed that Jesus would rise, as He had said.

As for her “holding Him” for us……???..He’s sitting on His throne.

In a spiritual sense, of course, just as all of us have the great privilege of holding Christ for the world. As I have heard it said, each one of us may be the only Christ a person encounters, the only “Bible” they will ever read. Through us, the HS brings Christ to the world.

 

[guanophore]

I fail to see how this has anything to do with apostolic succession.

Sure we are all one body and Christians and will be judged by Christ. But that doesn’t nullify the fact that in the body, there are certain ones with different roles put there by Christ as number one, two, three etc. 1 Cor. 12:28-30

That was not the intention. Leeann was asked for apostolic sanction, not about succession, which is off topic in this thread. She was answering the question of what becomes of people after death. She did a good job of responding to a spurious imagination about her beliefs around the state of believers after death.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Although Christ is the ultimate intercessor, it is quite obvious to me that Christians also have a relative role as intercessors. See Eph. 1:11-23; Phil. 1:3-6; Col. 1:3-14 Does death mean we can no longer intercede?

 

[ron77nyc]

Does that mean it’s wrong if I ask you, or any Christian, or Mary to pray for me?

There is a big difference between asking someone to pray for you and praying to that person. Would you pray to one of your Christian friends?

 

[prayerwarrior17]

Does that mean it’s wrong if I ask you, or any Christian, or Mary to pray for me?

its not wrong if u ask me or other christian to pray for you…but i dont know if its really right to ask Mary to pray for us…i also confused about that…i hope somebody can answer our question…cause i still didn’t know if it is tated in the bible that somebody in heaven can pray for us here in earth…

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

That was not the intention. Leeann was asked for apostolic sanction, not about succession, which is off topic in this thread. She was answering the question of what becomes of people after death. She did a good job of responding to a spurious imagination about her beliefs around the state of believers after death.

Sorry I misunderstood. However, one’s living or one’s death doesn’t diminish one’s presence with the Lord, according to the passage she quoted.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

There is a big difference between asking someone to pray for you and praying to that person. Would you pray to one of your Christian friends?

While people might say they pray to Mary or one of the saints, if you press them you will find that they are actually asking those persons to intercede for them. At least, in my case, that’s how I view it.