Praying the Hail Mary

[YADA]

See my reference to ecclisiastes.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New King James Version)

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

The memories of the Rich Man, Lazarus and Abraham are not forgotten here. All three appear to know something: like who they are where they are and whether they are in a good or bad place. Neither is thier hatred or love diminished. They do share: conversation, visual sightings, hearing.

I posted this earlier and you never responded:

As eveidenced from your many posts - You maintain that the dead cannot see or hear and therefore any prayers to them are inappropriate…Now, because the Rich Man’s plea was answered in the negative it means what?..

That no prayers are ever answered in the affirmative? …You are not really going to say that prayers are ineffective based upon this one passage?? If so that is a different topic…perhaps for a different thread…

This passage proves more then that the dead hear the pleas of others. This passage proves that they are aware, hear, see and have recognition that is out of the norm…

Neither Lazarus nor the Rich Man would [or could have known what Abraham looked like - yet they recognize Abraham for who he is and his role in salvation history - Lazarus lies in the bosom of Abraham - that is probably how you came to realize he is ‘rightious’ a ter used to describe Abraham.[/COLOR]

Now Lazarus is with Abraham; you might concluded [expect] that introducitons were made. But the Rich Man is in a totally different place and yet he can see across the chasm!

The Rich Man is aware of his own circumstance, that the conditions for Lazarus are different and that his borthers are headed for the same fate as his. The Rich Man is eveidently aware that they [his brothers] ar unrepentant and still sinners. ** He [the Rich Man] has concern for his brothers and attempts to interceed on their behalf.** It is not necessary for his apeal to be successful to illustrate that yu position [the dead are unknowing, unaware, don’t care, etc]

This is really striking…it is compelling for the belief in the Communion of Saints, God as the God of the Living, Intercessory prayer, all of it. That Lazarus was not allowed to ‘personally’ leave and go to the brothers to tell them the Rich Man’s fate is not relevant…

Another passage is is Revelation, where the martyrs cry out for vindication…Jesus tells the that there will be more martyrs joining them and that their vindication will come [God’s timing!!!]. Again this illustrates that there is awareness and communitcations. The prayers of those on earth carried forth ad presented to God in bowls…

 

[YADA]

Interesting statement.

I believe his point is the Church existed before the New Testament scriptures were written, perserved, collected, copied and put together with the Hebrew Texts to become the “Bible” by several hundre years…the New Testament writings were written by a faith community, for that faith community.

The Bible is the “Canon” of the Church, ie: the foundational stories and beliefs that identify the Christian. It was not intended to be the document that fully 100% defined every iota of the Church’s identity.

For example: I own a business. I can write a mission statement that identifies the core mission. But the documment exists because I created it. If there is a question about what the mission statement says, it is mine to interpret, not my competitor down the street nor the business owner next door…

 

[misslollipops]

I
The Bible is the “Canon” of the Church, ie: the foundational stories and beliefs that identify the Christian. It was not intended to be the document that fully 100% defined every iota of the Church’s identity.

For example: I own a business. I can write a mission statement that identifies the core mission. But the documment exists because I created it. If there is a question about what the mission statement says, it is mine to interpret, not my competitor down the street nor the business owner next door…

You think the bible is stories created by the church?

 

[guanophore]

See my reference to ecclisiastes.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New King James Version)

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

Luke 9:30-31
30 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Eli’jah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem."

Do you consider Moses and Elijah “dead”? If so, how is it that they know about the crucifixion?

 

[JuanMiguelMaria]

Luke 9:30-31
30 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Eli’jah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem."

Do you consider Moses and Elijah “dead”? If so, how is it that they know about the crucifixion?

To answer your question, from someone that is not quite “new” here, but with a different name, it is clear from Sacred scripture that neither Moses nor Elijah were “dead”, as in unable to relate to the physical world in which we, as people that are “alive” live.

The only thing the so-called “Protestants” can say is that both Moses and Elijah had physical bodies in Heaven, as there is some evidence that they were assumed into Heaven.

The problem the so-called “Protestants” face with that “assumption” is that they then have no argument against Our Lady being Assumed into Heaven.

In short, the so-called “Protestants” refuse to believe in a “cloud of witnesses”, therefore they refuse to believe the very same book they hold so sacred.

 

[fellowChristian]

Reminder

Jesus Loves His Mother

We are called to follow His commands.

Honor your mother and father.

We do and His too. Everyone else seems to focus more on the fact of Catholics honoring the mother of Jesus that they don’t seem to notice we honor St. Joseph too. We ask for his prayers too.

But let me tell you something if you had to ask a king for something, say like a piece of land or something, you know how you don’t ask?

You don’t insult his mother.

And by ignoring her you insult him.

I love my mother. I am not perfect but I love her the best I can. And let me say if you want to get to me, talk to my mother she knows me best.

 

[misslollipops]

Reminder

Jesus Loves His Mother

We are called to follow His commands.

Honor your mother and father.

We do and His too. Everyone else seems to focus more on the fact of Catholics honoring the mother of Jesus that they don’t seem to notice we honor St. Joseph too. We ask for his prayers too.

But let me tell you something if you had to ask a king for something, say like a piece of land or something, you know how you don’t ask?

You don’t insult his mother.

And by ignoring her you insult him.

I love my mother. I am not perfect but I love her the best I can. And let me say if you want to get to me, talk to my mother she knows me best.

Luke 14:26 (New King James Version)

26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Luke 8:19-21 (New King James Version)
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers Come to Him

19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

 

[Church_Militant]

Luke 14:26 (New King James Version)

26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Luke 8:19-21 (New King James Version)
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers Come to Him

19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

Out of context passages used to make a case for something they actually do not even imply.:whacky:

It would be contradictory for Our Lord to tell us to honor our parents and then tell us to hate them if He meant it as you have used these verse to imply. Therefore, since the Lord certainly would not do that, that means that your interpretation of them must be where the error lies.

 

[fellowChristian]

**Necessity of truth for salvation **

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

**John 8:32 **
and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

**John 18:37 **
So Pilate said to him, “Then you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say I am a king. For this I was born and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.”

**How do we know the truth? The Bible? **

**Leviticus 19:18 **
'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Matthew 5:43
" You have heard that it was said, ’ YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

Matthew 5:44
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matthew 10:37
" He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Matthew 19:19
HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Individual Interpretation of Scripture is not biblical

**2 Peter 3:16 **
speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

**2 Peter 1:20 **
Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,

**Acts 8:27 **
So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,
28
and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
29
The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.”
30
Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, **“Do you understand what you are reading?”
31
He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him. **

We need guides, teachers

Where do we look for truth?

                                      **  The Church**

****1 Corinthians 12:28 ****

Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.

**1 Timothy 3:15 **
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is **the church **of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Which Church?

A: Catholic Church - c.33ad.

B: Orthodox Churches - 10 - 12 different churches - 1054 ad.

C: Protestant Denominations - 25,000 + denominations - after 1517 ad.

 

[Zooey]

My answer would differ.

True, we don’t worship Mary, and we don’t serve or sacrifice to Mary in a worshipful manner, so in that sense your underlying meaning is correct. But yes, we do serve and sacrifice to Mary and to other people. For instance, I serve my wife and I make sacrifices for her. That doesn’t equate to worship.

I serve and make sacrifices for my son. That doesn’t mean I worship him.

The pope is the servant of the laity (“the servant of the servants of Christ”). Does that mean the pope worships the laity?

I serve my clients in my practice. That doesn’t mean I worship them.

I have no problem with the idea of giving other people service and making sacrifices for them. And I like to please Mary by giving her honor.

Worship, of course, belongs to God alone.

It occurs to me, reading this, that I serve my cat. Certainly, I feed her, change her box, I let her have (at least) half of the bed at night.Her nickname among my friends, is “Baby Boss”.
But you know, I don’t think that anyone thinks that I worship her…even if I do have :bowdown: to her in my signature…(OK; **she **probably thinks that I worship her…)

Just as a note…

This is the dumbest man made tradition started by really dumb catholics that are looking for some superstitious method for selling a house… :banghead:

Whats worse is that people actually believe this is a Church teaching…:doh2:

Miss… you are absolutely right in questioning this one practice.

That being said… remember ALL prayers sanctioned by the church ultimately point to Christ. Praying with the saints in heaven is NO different than me praying with you. with the exception of they are in heaven, and per the bible, their prayers hold more weight “The prayers of the righteous man have great weight”

Anyway… I’m sure there is, but didn’t really look… the upside down statue mess… i wished there was a smiley that, well, was returning his once eaten lunch

In Christ

Your wish; my command:http://bestsmileys.com/puking/2.gif !!:tiphat:

 

[Pier]

A lot of times when the Hail Mary is said, like while praying the rosary, it’s for the salvation of others.

 

[heisenburg]

Thanks Zooey

 

[mercygate]

You don’t think certain types of devotion work well for some, and not others? Do you think all are called to be a monk/nun, for example? It seems to me that there are so many private devotions, it would be easy to find one that suits each personality.

Do you think that God cannot reveal things to children?

Maybe the First book of Samuel is not in his Bible?

 

[Linnyo]

I used to pray to St Anthony.
I used to even bury statues of ST Joseph upside down in the ground.

I don’t do that any more.
If I need to find something I pray directly to Jesus and it works every time.

I don’t doubt that the St Anthony prayer works. But if it angers my jealous Father God, then I would rather just pray to Jesus.

Why would you bury statues upside down in the ground??

 

[Linnyo]

See my reference to ecclisiastes.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New King James Version)

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

The point has been made several times that those whom God has saved are NOT dead. They are the living! They may not be living in our homes or our neighbourhoods but they are living. No Catholics pray to the dead. What would be the point? But praying to saints who have passed on, is praying to the living. And having them pray for us is just as useful as having our friends pray for us.

 

[Linnyo]

The upside down statue worked for me 4 times. Made a ton of money. But I can’t do it anymore. Because it dishonors God.
Now I rely on Him solely.

Your house would have sold 4 times without a daft statue rutual! It is only you who has attributed that to the statue. I prayed to God and believed God would get me a good price for the sale of my house and that worked too…or would it have also happened without any prayer? Who really knows?

 

[Linnyo]

1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces.
2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary.
3. The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.
6. Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.
8. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.
9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
10. The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.
11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary.
12. All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.
14. All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ.
15. Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.

I’m unsure of your aim in posting this.I have never prayed the rosary before but I think you have managed to persuade me that it is right and good to do so!

 

[Linnyo]

Are you aware of the first promise of the rosary?

Fifteen Promises of Mary to those who recite her Holy Rosary

Imparted to Saint Dominic and Blessed Alan

1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive single graces.

Gamera explained it better than me in 215. He or she is right.

 

[mercygate]

Your house would have sold 4 times without a daft statue rutual! It is only you who has attributed that to the statue. I prayed to God and believed God would get me a good price for the sale of my house and that worked too…or would it have also happened without any prayer? Who really knows?

Sorry, Linnyo: burying a statue of St. Joseph IS something people do (even non-Catholics). Although it CAN be defended, a LOT of us agree with you that it is a “daft” practice and too close to the border of superstition to be wholesome. Google it. It will give you the willies.

 

[Linnyo]

Sorry, Linnyo: burying a statue of St. Joseph IS something people do (even non-Catholics). Although it CAN be defended, a LOT of us agree with you that it is a “daft” practice and too close to the border of superstition to be wholesome. Google it. It will give you the willies.

I googled it. I think people embellish stories in the telling though. One of the estate agents is selling a pack but even they admitted,

But do houses with St. Joseph planted in the yard always sell quickly?
“Some do, some don’t,” says Gies.

I don’t think it works but I am a cynic! I think that it is another thing to put people off organised religion. And we don’t need that!