Praying to Mary doesn't feel right

[JRKH]

As I was writing the response above, it occurred to me that there ARE perhaps a few examples of people who others would go to perhaps in a manner similar to the Memorare.
Two that Come to mind are Padre Pio and Father Solanus Casey.
In each of these cases, people would come, seeking a much more direct and clear answer from God and through the saintly person.

So - where one might not go to their “average” or even “above average” parishioner friend and ask them to “answer” their prayer, one might indeed go to an “extremely above average” - specially blessed person and ask for them to answer their entreaty…
Understanding of course that the answer comes not from the person, but from God Himself as revealed to that person.

As a rule, in these cases, I don’t think that such saintly people are generally asked to intercede to “change God’s mind” or anything like that - though they might convey insights from God on changes we must make in order to achieve some better outcome.

This is an interesting concept to meditate on and I shall do so…

Peace
James

 

[AlanFromWichita]

As a rule, in these cases, I don’t think that such saintly people are generally asked to intercede to “change God’s mind” or anything like that - though they might convey insights from God on changes we must make in order to achieve some better outcome.

This is an interesting concept to meditate on and I shall do so…

James,

I think by their very beatification they are held up as role models for various virtues. That alone should convey some insight into what we believe is great faith in action. Praying through them might be nice, but optional.

But you know what? When I am around people who like to pray through saints, I usually don’t have a problem socially awkward or anything. I just tell them I like St. Jude and St. Dymphna and that’s usually all they need to know. Once you name a saint you like, it helps put them on your “wavelength” – maybe it gives them a closer glimpse of how you think an encounter with God could manifest. Like saying you saw the same movie, well, you’ve studied the same saint. You know, that kind of thing.

Alan

 

[JRKH]

James,

I think by their very beatification they are held up as role models for various virtues. That alone should convey some insight into what we believe is great faith in action. Praying through them might be nice, but optional.

But you know what? When I am around people who like to pray through saints, I usually don’t have a problem socially awkward or anything. I just tell them I like St. Jude and St. Dymphna and that’s usually all they need to know. Once you name a saint you like, it helps put them on your “wavelength” – maybe it gives them a closer glimpse of how you think an encounter with God could manifest. Like saying you saw the same movie, well, you’ve studied the same saint. You know, that kind of thing.

Alan

I agree. Likewise I do not feel awkward around people who like to pray through saints.
I like St Francis of Assisi and Therese of Lisieux. I also like the Great Mystics such as Catherine of Sienna and Teresa of Avila.
I’m sure that mentioning these indeed would provide others with insight into my own spiritual journey.

As an aside Alan, I read how you spoke of your mother. It sounds as though she is quite ill and you are her caregiver and advocate. I love how you spoke of her effect on you and who you are. It is beautiful.

Peace
James

 

[Waiting]

(Bolding Mine)
Since, as you say here, Mary takes no offense - then where is there harm??
Likewise, I don’t see Jesus as being either pleased or displeased in the matter.

You ask if I think that Jesus is “pleased” that I “bypass” his mother - I ask, since Mary points to her son AND is not offended by being “bypassed” the why should Jesus be displeased by our coming directly to Him or directly to Our Father???

See this is the thing that bothers me in much of these kinds of discussions.
On the one hand you want to claim that Mary is not offended, but on the other hand you want to claim that Jesus IS offended…Thus placing an unnecessary barrier between me and God.
On the one hand you agree that praying to or through Mary is not necessary, but then on the other hand you hold up the specter of Jesus being offended, or angry or otherwise “out of sorts” because we what(?) - because we dare to pray to Him or to Our Father directly in the manner that Jesus Himself taught us??.. …It makes no sense.

I have to say that - from my viewpoint and my understanding of these things - God would have more reason to feel offended if we felt we couldn’t approach Him, Our Father, directly - if we felt that we had to go through Mary.

You make the point of Jesus love for His mother and how it makes Him happy if we love her too and pray to her…Fair enough…But is it not even MORE true that Jesus and Mary both Love His Father and our Father, the Living God, and what makes them BOTH the happiest is when we pray to Him?..

You say that if someone were uncomfortable talking to your mother you would wonder why…
But would not the same thing be true for your father? If someone felt uncomfortable talking to your Father would you also wonder why??

Forgive me for saying so but this whole concept strikes me as rather selfish.
What you are saying in effect is that if you pray to “Dad” and are told “No”, then Go to “Mom” and she’ll get a “Yes” for you. Or, if you are worried that Dad will say no - Go to Mom first…She’ll get a yes for you…
This strikes me as too much desiring of ones own will over the Will of the Father. Yet we know that the will of the saints in Heaven is perfectly aligned, in Love, with the Father’s Will. The Father knows what is best for us. Thus, Mary, aligned in Love with the Father on these matters also knows that the Father’s Will is what is best for us. So what advantage is there in trying to get God to say “Yes” through Mary when we figure He might say “No” to us.

Having said this I will and do concede that Mary (as well as other saints) can and do bring to us much comfort by their prayers on our behalf and the graces we may receive by such intercession. Not that they “change God’s Mind” or that “God cannot say no to them”, but rather that through their particular charism, each saint can help us to understand and to accept the Father’s Will in our Lives. The Father’s Will - which is, necessarily, the same as the Saint’s, and the BVM’s will for us.

I hope that I am not coming across as too harsh in these posts. It is not my intention. I do have some experience in prayers of petition and of being told “no” by God the Father Himself. I can see no advantage - indeed I see it as being disingenuous and selfishly manipulative - to then seek the aid of “Mom” to try to get Him to change His mind.

My heavenly Mother can and does comfort me in trying to understand the Father’s reasons for saying “no” and in accepting His Will for me and that is sufficient and is a role proper to a Loving Mother who Loves the Father and wants only the best for her children.

And maybe too, part of this is because I know from growing up that, if one of my parents said no to a request we children had, there was no use (in fact if was counterproductive) to try to do an “end run” through the other parent…

With deep respect to others opinions on these matters I remain at peace with my current spirituality on the matter.

Peace
James

I suspect I’ve given you the wrong impression of my prayer life. I have prayers directed to God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), prayers directed to Mary, and prayers directed to individual saints, such as The Little Flower, St. Anthony, Padre Pio, etc. My initial thought when in need is to pray, “Lord,…” When a need is not soon answered, I go to my mother, “Mary, would you…etc.” They are all my family. I hope to join them in the not-too-distant future, as I am a senior citizen. I was only disturbed because you and some others felt uncomfortable asking Mary for help, as though she is an outsider. I was reiterating just how much she can and is happy to do for us. We, too, are her children. Certainly she doesn’t try to change the will of God. That’s impossible, anyway. But God has known from all time that she would be petitioning Him for various causes, and so the decision was made from all time. As God finds it difficult to refuse His mother anything, I like to ask Mary to ask Her Son for me. God loves each of us, just as we are.

 

[JRKH]

I suspect I’ve given you the wrong impression of my prayer life. I have prayers directed to God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), prayers directed to Mary, and prayers directed to individual saints, such as The Little Flower, St. Anthony, Padre Pio, etc. My initial thought when in need is to pray, “Lord,…” When a need is not soon answered, I go to my mother, “Mary, would you…etc.” They are all my family. I hope to join them in the not-too-distant future, as I am a senior citizen. I was only disturbed because you and some others felt uncomfortable asking Mary for help, as though she is an outsider. I was reiterating just how much she can and is happy to do for us. We, too, are her children. Certainly she doesn’t try to change the will of God. That’s impossible, anyway. But God has known from all time that she would be petitioning Him for various causes, and so the decision was made from all time. As God finds it difficult to refuse His mother anything, I like to ask Mary to ask Her Son for me. God loves each of us, just as we are.

I Love this. Beautifully put. Thank you.

I’m sure that I too have a tendency to not express myself clearly on my prayer life. I’m sure you agree that it is just so personal and dynamic that these things are hard to put into words. Sometimes in our attempts to express our personal views and what Mary or a saint means to us personally, it can lead to difficulties in communication and understanding.

It is my belief that this difficulty in adequately expressing ourselves, along with the highly individualistic nature of ones prayer life can make it difficult for those interested in the faith to “get their head around” intercessory prayer to the BVM and the Saints. For that reason, when the question comes up, I simply advise them to not rush it and not to worry about it. Such prayers are not required and they are best served by praying in the manner they are most comfortable.

There is no doubt but that Jesus finds it difficult to refuse His mother anything…but then again, since Mary’s will is perfectly aligned with the Father, Son and Spirit, Mary would never request something that is not in line with the Father’s Will.

Peace
James

 

[AlanFromWichita]

As an aside Alan, I read how you spoke of your mother. It sounds as though she is quite ill and you are her caregiver and advocate. I love how you spoke of her effect on you and who you are. It is beautiful.

Peace
James

Thank you. She is very ill and I am that.

Alan

 

[bakaten]

In referencing the Memorare, it is not a matter of saying that Jesus is not present in the prayer but rather a matter of pointing out that this is a prayer addressed wholly TO Mary.

Let us examine it a bit…
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thine intercession was left unaided.

Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me.

Amen.

The first section is reminding Mary (as if she needs reminding) that she is known as a great help to her children.
In the second section, NO mention is made of her praying to God on our behalf The petitioner is coming completely to Mary - bringing the petitions to her and imploring an answer from her.

Now - to be clear. If the specific intentions are properly ordered to God and God’s Will, and if the one petitioning has a proper understanding of how Mary “hear and answers” then there is no problem…

BUT -

To a person who is NOT well versed in these matters, does not have a good understanding of Mary’s relationship and role, and brings their petitions NOT properly ordered to God and God’s Will there is danger of slipping into improper veneration of Mary.

Likewise, if a person is a new convert or someone considering conversion, the wording of this prayer can be troubling. It could even serve as a “stumbling block” to conversion because it can quite easily be misunderstood as inappropriate veneration/worship.

We often defend the practice of praying to saints as “asking them to pray with us”. That it is no different than asking others in your church to pray for and with you for some intention. Yet - could you imagine ever speaking to a fellow parishioner in such terms as are expressed in the Memorare? Would you ever ask another parishioner to “hear your intentions” and to “answer your intentions”?

In short, this prayer is not one to be recited lightly and without a good understanding of Mary’s role in the economy of salvation.
For most normal circumstances and for the “average” faithful, it’s probably best to stick with the old, reliable, “Hail Mary”…

Peace
James

Yes, I do agree that without a good understanding on Her roles people might easily get confused, and that certainly something that has to be avoided. Our Mother certainly doesn’t want that and Our Lord certainly doesn’t want that to happen.

But again to break down the prayer itself into several part or isolating the prayer (aka viewing the prayer as a standalone prayer completely detach it from the rest of our prayer to the Lord) is a wrong method in the first place. Is a kind of viewing the Old Testament without regard for The New Testament, or even say quoting one passage of the Bible without regards with the whole intention of what purpose the passage is written. Once always have the danger of wrong interpretation like many (including myself) always do.

Regarding the whole wording thing, I guess it’s more like a shift in culture problem. I am being brought up in Eastern culture, so I can’t speak much of Western culture. But nowadays here, I observed that child becoming more and more detached from their parents. They start calling their parent with the name and less affection. But in my days (Yes I am quite old ) when I want to ask my dad through my mom’s favor, that’s exactly how I would do it like in Memorare (i.e. “mom, you know you look lovely today…, you know I really want…, could you help me get it pretty please?”). I don’t even mention my father, but mom always know that I ask her to “intercede” for me to my dad because he is the one with the buying power

The way I see it, Jesus adopt us into His family, so it’s automatic that Mary is our mother.
Whether we want to regards her as such is up to us, but don’t you think it’s sad we address The Lord, Brother, Brother everyday but when we meet His Mother, we just say “hi fellow parishes” LOL

 

[JRKH]

Yes, I do agree that without a good understanding on Her roles people might easily get confused, and that certainly something that has to be avoided. Our Mother certainly doesn’t want that and Our Lord certainly doesn’t want that to happen.

And that is really all I wish people to understand. That some can be uncomfortable with certain prayers and that neither Jesus or Mary wishes for us to be uncomfortable.

But again to break down the prayer itself into several part or isolating the prayer (aka viewing the prayer as a standalone prayer completely detach it from the rest of our prayer to the Lord) is a wrong method in the first place. Is a kind of viewing the Old Testament without regard for The New Testament, or even say quoting one passage of the Bible without regards with the whole intention of what purpose the passage is written. Once always have the danger of wrong interpretation like many (including myself) always do.

I agree with this, and yet - for someone coming into the Church, especially from a protestant background, learning and understanding these things takes time. Likewise, different people develop along different spiritual and prayer lives. Each should be afforded respect.

Regarding the whole wording thing, I guess it’s more like a shift in culture problem. I am being brought up in Eastern culture, so I can’t speak much of Western culture. But nowadays here, I observed that child becoming more and more detached from their parents. They start calling their parent with the name and less affection. But in my days (Yes I am quite old ) when I want to ask my dad through my mom’s favor, that’s exactly how I would do it like in Memorare (i.e. “mom, you know you look lovely today…, you know I really want…, could you help me get it pretty please?”). I don’t even mention my father, but mom always know that I ask her to “intercede” for me to my dad because he is the one with the buying power

Yes this certainly can be one dynamic, but it is most definitely not the only one.
Some people have no problem approaching dad instead of going through mom.

The way I see it, Jesus adopt us into His family, so it’s automatic that Mary is our mother.
Whether we want to regards her as such is up to us, but don’t you think it’s sad we address The Lord, Brother, Brother everyday but when we meet His Mother, we just say “hi fellow parishes” LOL

Mary is indeed my Mother…Never said she wasn’t. In fact I have repeatedly said that she is my mother and that I Love her. She and I just have a different relationship than she has with you - that’s all…

Peace
James

 

[bakaten]

And that is really all I wish people to understand. That some can be uncomfortable with certain prayers and that neither Jesus or Mary wishes for us to be uncomfortable.

I agree with this, and yet - for someone coming into the Church, especially from a protestant background, learning and understanding these things takes time. Likewise, different people develop along different spiritual and prayer lives. Each should be afforded respect.

Yes this certainly can be one dynamic, but it is most definitely not the only one.
Some people have no problem approaching dad instead of going through mom.

Mary is indeed my Mother…Never said she wasn’t. In fact I have repeatedly said that she is my mother and that I Love her. She and I just have a different relationship than she has with you - that’s all…

Peace
James

Yep, I definitely agree with your opinion. Each one of us has a different approach and deserve a respect for this.
IMHO, it’s not wrong to go to God directly, but it is also not wrong to approach Him through our Mother and neither any of us should condemn each other. We are brother and sister to begin with
Everyone should start with the pace that they are comfortable. I believe if Jesus wants us to get a little more closer to His Mother, He will certainly guide us to.

Peace be with you

 

[JRKH]

Yep, I definitely agree with your opinion. Each one of us has a different approach and deserve a respect for this.
IMHO, it’s not wrong to go to God directly, but it is also not wrong to approach Him through our Mother and neither any of us should condemn each other. We are brother and sister to begin with
Everyone should start with the pace that they are comfortable. I believe if Jesus wants us to get a little more closer to His Mother, He will certainly guide us to.

Peace be with you

And peace to you my friend

Peace
James

 

[Miriam1947]

I understand what you are saying here but I must confess to feeling uncomfortable with prayers such as this:
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thine intercession was left unaided.

Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me.
There is little in this prayer that gives the impression of praying “with” or “through” Mary. It is pretty much directed directly TO Mary.
Not looking for a debate on the matter, just pointing out why certain prayers “to” Mary - or “to” a saint can feel uncomfortable.

Peace
James

Isn’t it great that we do not have to pray these particular prayers to be a good Catholic? We can pray the Imitation of Christ or the Divine Mercy or any number of prayers in the Church.

 

[Waiting]

Isn’t it great that we do not have to pray these particular prayers to be a good Catholic? We can pray the Imitation of Christ or the Divine Mercy or any number of prayers in the Church.

It’s true that we don’t have to pray the Memorare, but this is the very prayer that I prayed over and over when I was on my way to retrieve my cat whom I discovered I had placed in a bad home. The woman had refused to give her back. The woman’s mother was adamant that I couldn’t have the cat back. Finally, I tried one more time to reason with the woman who had the cat. All the way to her home I kept repeating the Memorare. When I got to the house, the woman was very cooperative, and we parted friends. I brought my cat back with me. I am very grateful to Mary and her divine Son. I love this prayer and the power of its message. So true.

 

[freerf]

Thank you for the compliment. By the pained expression on Jesus’ face, I’m referring to the fact that you and some others are not comfortable praying to Mary. If someone felt uncomfortable speaking to my mother, I would wonder why, and I’m sure there would be a pained look on my face. Mary doesn’t take offense by not being approached to intercede for you, but do you think her Son is pleased that you deliberately bypass her?

When I say that you hurt only yourself if you ignore Mary, I mean that she can help you in so many ways through her powerful intercessory power with her Son, that you are the loser by not asking for her help. It’s as simple as that. Jesus found it impossible to say ‘no’ to His mother here on earth, so it’s a certainty that He won’t refuse her petitions in heaven. I don’t mean to change your method of praying. Just maybe get a little better acquainted with His mother.

I find this logic so odd. I have no reason whatsoever to believe Jesus would be displeased with my not praying to Mary. And neither does anyone else here, except to say, “well this is how i would feel so i think Jesus also feels this way”. I find this likeness lacking merit to say the least.
Also perplexing is the belief that “Jesus found it impossible to say no to his mother.” there is simply no justification for the use of the word “impossible”.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I find this logic so odd. I have no reason whatsoever to believe Jesus would be displeased with my not praying to Mary. And neither does anyone else here, except to say, “well this is how i would feel so i think Jesus also feels this way”. I find this likeness lacking merit to say the least.

[BIBLEDRB]James 5:16[/BIBLEDRB]

Are you as holy as Mary?

Are you as holy as Enoch and Elijah?

Are you sure? After all, none of them died.

Also perplexing is the belief that “Jesus found it impossible to say no to his mother.” there is simply no justification for the use of the word “impossible”.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=8716

 

[freerf]

[BIBLEDRB]James 5:16[/BIBLEDRB]

Are you as holy as Mary?

Are you as holy as Enoch and Elijah?

Are you sure? After all, none of them died.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=8716

Once again, Cat, you’ve lost me.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Once again, Cat, you’ve lost me.

I don’t think you were lost but rather that you had yet to start on the journey.

 

[Waiting]

I find this logic so odd. I have no reason whatsoever to believe Jesus would be displeased with my not praying to Mary. And neither does anyone else here, except to say, “well this is how i would feel so i think Jesus also feels this way”. I find this likeness lacking merit to say the least.
Also perplexing is the belief that “Jesus found it impossible to say no to his mother.” there is simply no justification for the use of the word “impossible”.

Sorry that you don’t see my point when I say that Jesus found it impossible to say no to His mother. Read John Chapter 2. Jesus did not want to work a miracle at the wedding in Cana, but Mary told Him that there was a need. Mary didn’t ask a second time. She simply said to the waiters, “Do whatever He tells you.” She knew that Jesus would honor her request. This gives us an indication how highly Jesus regarded His mother. He changed water into wine, and thereby performed His first public miracle at His mother’s request. He didn’t say no then, and He’s not likely to say no in heaven. But there’s no commandment that tells you to go to Mary, so feel free not to. I believe that Jesus is pleased when we honor His mother. I also feel that He isn’t pleased when she is intentionally ignored.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Let’s try this again…

I find this logic so odd. I have no reason whatsoever to believe Jesus would be displeased with my not praying to Mary. And neither does anyone else here, except to say, “well this is how i would feel so i think Jesus also feels this way”. I find this likeness lacking merit to say the least.
Also perplexing is the belief that “Jesus found it impossible to say no to his mother.” there is simply no justification for the use of the word “impossible”.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=8716

You and I are the “Human” in that chart.

There is a commandment about obeying one’s mother. Jesus is without sin (2 Cor 2:51), so it goes without saying that He would never break the Fourth Commandment. Thus the reference to Exodus 20:12, etc. But since we belong to the Body of Christ, and Mary is the Mother of that Body, Mary is also our Mother, as Revelation 12 and the dialogue between Jesus and John as the former hung on the cross makes clear. Thus we have a duty to obey Her as well if we want to please God. All of this is plainly biblical.

 

[JRKH]

Sorry that you don’t see my point when I say that Jesus found it impossible to say no to His mother. Read John Chapter 2. Jesus did not want to work a miracle at the wedding in Cana, but Mary told Him that there was a need. Mary didn’t ask a second time. She simply said to the waiters, "Do whatever He tells you."

In the discussion about the Cana Passage as ti relates to Mary, It seems to me that the bolded section gets overlooked in it’s significance within the passage and what is recorded later in Scripture. Consider…
3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
First, when Mary brings the concern to Him what is His response…If anything it is a rebuff. Jesus, being God, knew that the wine would fail and that He would take care of the situation…Mary did not need to tell Him. So her request to him was superfluous. In fact later, we are told that God knows what we need before we need it, so we are not to worry and be anxious about things.
Second, Look at what Mary tells the servants…“Do Whatever He tells You”. Wonderful advice from our Dear Mother. Now - Look later at what He tells us when asked about how to pray in Mt 6:9-15
9 Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread; 12 And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; 13 And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. 14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

and in Luke 11:1-4

1 He was praying in a certain place, and when he ceased, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” 2 And he said to them, "When you pray, say: “Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread; 4 and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive every one who is indebted to us; and lead us not into temptation.” (RSV)

So - Mary’s last statement recorded in Scripture was to “Do whatever He tells you” and Jesus “Tells us” to pray “Our Father”…

She knew that Jesus would honor her request. This gives us an indication how highly Jesus regarded His mother. He changed water into wine, and thereby performed His first public miracle at His mother’s request. He didn’t say no then, and He’s not likely to say no in heaven.

As another point on your statement above that Mary knew Jesus “would honor her request”…Something often used to signal that Jesus can’t say no to Mary…
Did Jesus perform the miracle to “honor her request” or did He do it because “His Hour” had come?? If it was to honor her request, then why did he say “what is this to you and me??” No - Jesus performed the miracle because it served the purposes of His ministry and mission. He did not do it to honor His mother’s request.

But there’s no commandment that tells you to go to Mary, so feel free not to. I believe that Jesus is pleased when we honor His mother. I also feel that He isn’t pleased when she is intentionally ignored.

I too believe that Jesus is pleased when we honor His Mother. After all, she’s our Mother too. Do we, God’s servants, not honor her best by doing what she told the servants at Cana - in her final recorded words in Scripture?
My Mother has told me (a lowly servant and least among the brothers) to “Do whatever He tells you to do” - and, in regards to prayer, He has told me to pray…“Our Father…”
So, in this I do NOT ignore Mary, but Honor her and am obedient to Her in the proper order of salvation.

Thank you, most Holy Virgin Mary, for your Loving and caring obedience to God in all things and for teaching us to do the same. Holy Mother pray for us.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Hey Everybody -

I just want to take a minute to thank everyone for the wonderful, insightful, charitable, informative, and thought provoking exchange of views we have had on this thread. It’s the best I’ve ever engaged in.
I truly appreciate everyone’s patience and love - on both sides of the discussion. This has allowed both views to be expressed well and in ways that help us all to grow in our understanding of these matters.

One thing that has occurred to me - and I must prayerfully consider - is how my “bible base” view may be unduly limiting my understanding.
I believe in Holy Mother Church because I believe Christ and I believe that She speaks authoritatively for Christ in the World. So perhaps my rather limited view of Our Lady’s role based on what is recorded in Scripture is not giving due weight to what Christ has continued to teach us through the good offices of His Church.
As I say - I will need to give this some consideration in prayer…
So - to all who have tried to educate me, your efforts have not been in vain.

Now having said that, I will still hold the view that when talking to converts or potential converts who are struggling with any kind of intercessory prayer, it is important to set their minds at rest by letting them know that intercessory prayer is optional.

Thanks again to everyone…And I look forward to any other (name removed by moderator)ut that you good folks wish to share.

Peace
James