Praying to Mary.

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Most non-catholics (in my experience) run into confusion because they can’t comprehend the ability to communicate with those in heaven. The bible does say that all we do in life is known in heaven. I can’t remember the exact verse at the moment and I have to go, but I will find it tonight and post it tomorrow.

On another note, I’ve seen some posts here that seem to be not out of love for brothers and sisters in faith, but frustration with those who do not agree ( A trap I only know about because I’ve fallen into it countless times.) Let’s just try to converse with love.
 
My God is the God of the living. When I die I will not be dead, but alive in Christ.

The Bible tells us to pray for one another and has christians asking others to pray for them. Do you believe this ends when you die and go to heaven?
Praying for one another is Biblical. Asking for others to pray for you is also Biblical. Another name for it is intercessory prayer, a term I actually first came across in the Protestant churches.

I pray that you actually think about what we are saying instead of coming up with the next argument. What started as a seemingly honest question is turning into spouting the same ideas over and over no matter what Biblical references we cite to you refuting your misconceptions.
God Bless.
 
Prayers to Mary and the Saints are as old as the Apostles. There are prayers to St. Peter carved into his tomb. Prayers to the saints are carved into the floors and walls of the catacombs where early Christians were buried and others gathered to celebrate Mass over the tombs of the martyrs.

Images of Mary and the Christchild, of Moses, a tableau of the Last Supper, and many other images are painted and carved on the walls of the Catacombs. The earliest extant image known of Mary and the Child Jesus is in the Catacomb of Priscilla; it dates to c. 150 A.D. Christians gathered there to pray and offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Yes, Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man – He alone opened the gates of heaven for us. But the Saints of God are “pray-ers, help-ers, intercessors, little “m” mediators” assisting us on our journey to heaven where they now live. And Any Friend of God’s is a Friend of Mine (title of a book by Patrick Madrid).

Death is the doorway to everlasting life. Don’t you believe that, Homer? Do you believe you’re just “dead” when you die?

Christians belong to the Communion of Saints. We never lose touch with one another, whether we are still on earth, suffering in purgatory, or in heaven. We are the Family of God, united under the New Covenant in Christ’s blood (Luke 22:20).

The Church wrote the NT and she alone is its rightful interpreter. In Protestant hands, the NT is stolen property. (Thank you, Edward Yew, geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4296/conversion.html)

If you want to know what the NT really means, ask the Church that wrote it.

Peace be to all who post on these forums.
 
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Katholikos:
Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man – He alone opened the gates of heaven for us.
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Yes, Jesus is the ONLY mediator to God — but I see Mary and the Saints (as well as our christian brothers and sisters here on earth) as a way to Jesus. We ask for prayers to Jesus because we know He is the Way.

I’m not sure if that makes sense but it does to me. :o

God Bless
 
As I have posted on another thread, a mediator is a person who fosters a reconciliation between two parties or negotiates a peace between two or more groups. Christ is the one mediator because he fostered the new covenant between God and man. Someone who carries messages between two people is an intermediary. Please feel free to look the words up. No Catholic has ever said that Mary fostered the reconciliation between God and man. We do not worship Mary or saints, we use them as intercessors for us, just like we ask each other to pray for us.

Now, back to the topic. We know that all in heaven are outside of time. They do not perceave the passing of time as we do. Because of this, they can hear our requests differently than they way they are prayed. How is this possible? Because God allows it. I know that that is not the answer that you want, but I for one am not going to tell God that he does not have the ability or athority to allow that to happen.
 
Why would anybody put their faith in Mary, intercessory or otherwise, when God our Father loves us so? And let us be plain - one is putting Faith (note the “F”) in Mary, and not God, when one prays to or via Mary. I am not convinced that God needs: 1) Endorsements of our prayers by designated Heavenly Officials, 2) Approval by a committee of the faithful to move a prayer into Executive Session, or 3) Heavenly Whips to advance Private Bills. (And please, these are analogies, not attacks on the RC Church.)

God loves you, me and all of His creation. He will listen. Let’s join together now, “Our Father, who art in Heaven, …” Strike that. It’s only Jesus who taught us to pray THAT way. Sorry, my mistake.

(Yes, MartyL is a “Reformed Catholic.” He loves his Roman Catholic wife, mom and the big Italian half of his family. They talk about this stuff all the time. He loves you too, and says, “Go for it. Explain why I’m wrong!” He also notes that the Mass is now in English, German and many other languages of the laity, that indulgences ain’t advertised like they use to be, and that justification theories ain’t so different after all. Hmm, maybe some thoughts have been provoked? Now, about the whole “Be fruitful and multiply”/celebacy thing …!)
 
***You have to understand it in terms of a family covenant. God is our sole source of life on earth and in the age to come. Ok. The Saints, be they canonized or not, can pray for us in heaven. Remember, they are our friends in Christ. They are not our gods or goddesses that we go to for protection of this or for defense of that. They are our friends in Christ. How can Christ be jealous of His Friends? That’s ridicules, just as if I came into your home and said a nice friendly word or 2 to your mother. That would even more make you feel good that I have established a rapport with your family and that it does not change in anyway our friendship. How can therefore Christ be jealous of us honoring, seeking intercession and aid from His Mother? Christ bestows an infinity of that honor on His own Mother so our honoring Her can never equal or come close to His honoring her. ***
As for Mary hearing our prayers. Simple answer: Mary and The Saints in Heaven hear our prayers through the sole Medium of God. They are always in God’s presence, and therefore have powers far beyond those we can ever even begin to try to duplicate on earth. Oh yes…we can try…by seeking the intercession of thousands through the medium of The INTERNET! Think of how many can see a requested or posted prayer on the internet? Innumerable!!! I think even The Lord is Bigger than the internet!
 
The question posed is not about what the Saints are doing: it’s about what you do when you pray to, via or cc a Saint. It does not matter if they are part of the Church family or not. Let them and the earthly members of the Church pray for you or your concern. It’s about why you pray to, via or cc a saint.

First, what is prayer? It is not just talking about your problems to the guy in the next pew. It is our link to God, and an analogy to the Internet just doesn’t work. Your relationship to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is not web based. It begins not with an “Address Book,” but with “Our Father, who art in Heaven, …”

So why would anybody try to petition the saintly instead of the Trinity? To communicate to God on your behalf? On their behalf? Does God love the Saint more than you, and therefore respond more favorably? Or, would our Father like to hear from the wasteful son who left the family instead of the good son/Saint who toiled in the family fields? He wants to hear from the less saintly, of course! He would rejoice. Perhaps, just perhaps, he might throw a party! Or think about it another way: what Good Shepard wouldn’t leave 99 Saints to talk to 1 guy asleep in the back pew?

So, praying to/via/cc Saints just doesn’t cut it. We know:

  1. *]God wants to hear from you, not the Saints;
    *]Jesus explained how to pray, and didn’t mention the via method; and,
    *]When you place your faith in a Saint, God’s relationship to the Saint, or any other aspect of a Saint, at the very least you imply that God loves you less than the rest of his Church. At worst, you create false gods.

    Let’s see if we can start that group prayer again, “Our Father, who art in Heaven, …”

    MartyL
 
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Katholikos:
The earliest extant image known of Mary and the Child Jesus is in the Catacomb of Priscilla; it dates to c. 150 A.D.
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Actually, there are at least three icons painted by Saint Luke that have survived to this day. I believe two are in Greece and one is in Russia. I am blessed to have had the opportunity to venerate one of the two in Greece. It is called Panagia Sumela and was brought to Greece from the Sumela monastery during the population exchange after the war of independance.

John.
 
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prodromos:
Actually, there are at least three icons painted by Saint Luke that have survived to this day. I believe two are in Greece and one is in Russia. I am blessed to have had the opportunity to venerate one of the two in Greece. It is called Panagia Sumela and was brought to Greece from the Sumela monastery during the population exchange after the war of independance.

John.
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How do you know St Luke painted them?
 
MartyL,

do you pray for others or only for yourself?
Do you think it pleases God when we pray for others or would He prefer we only prayed for ourselves?
Assuming you answer the above in the affirmative, what do you think motivates us to pray for others? Do you think it is love?
Does God wish to promote love between His children? How best can that be acheived?
Does your love for someone stop when they die?
Does your love for someone stop when you die?
Does God distinguish between His children who are living and His children who have died? Should we?

John.
 
_Christopher_:
How do you know St Luke painted them?
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Tradition (cue theme music from Fiddler on the Roof), the same Tradition that identifies the authors of books in the bible that don’t name their authors etc.

John.
 
God’s own Angel Gabriel prayed to Mary. This is not man-made “tradition”, it’s BIBLICAL:

“Hail Mary, full of Grace! The Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus!”

The prayer most commonly said by Catholics to the Blessed Mother (the “Hail Mary”) was not composed by humans, but divinely inspired! God’s own angel recognized Mary as the ONLY woman in the history of mankind completely free from original sin (“full of grace”) and hence worthy to be the vessel of the baby Lord Jesus.

On the Cross, Jesus vouchsafed Mary to his beloved disciple, “Behold, this is your Mother.” Some believe he was indicating she was now the Mother of the New Church.

Mary and Jesus had a close, loving, and understanding relationship on earth. Think of the Cana Wedding, where it was her idea to do something about the wine. Jesus obliged because of Mary’s INTERVENTION on behalf of the bride and groom!

We also believe Mary was assumed into Heaven and has already received her Glorified Body. She’s up there with Jesus, no one is closer to Him, surely, as he was carried in her womb. Why not talk to her?
 
This reply is from Catholic Answers (I am sure they won’t mind me using it)and explains without doubt that the “Saints” in heaven can hear us. Whatever one wants to or not read into this scripture it is quite plain that it at the very least lends credence to the Catholic teaching of those in heaven hearing us.

"One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding."

For those non catholics, Ask yourself this question. If in heaven they cannot hear us then our petitions to them are in vain, but we have neither lost or gained anything. If they can hear us then our petitions can achieve much. By requestiing the intercession of the “Saints” we can only win, or break even so to speak.

If I offered you the opportunity to bet on a race and offered you a return of break even or win and never loss, you would all jump at the bet. This is no different, why deny youself something that can at worst be of no value but at best help you to salvation.

In Christ

Tim Hayes
 
I thank God I have a Mother in heaven (Gods own Mother) to pray to/with for my needs.
 
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MartyL:
The question posed is not about what the Saints are doing: it’s about what you do when you pray to, via or cc a Saint. It does not matter if they are part of the Church family or not. Let them and the earthly members of the Church pray for you or your concern. It’s about why you pray to, via or cc a saint.
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Then it’s erroneous to ask Christians on earth to pray with you and for you to God, just as it is erroneous to ask Christians in Heaven to pray with you and for you to God.
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MartyL:
So why would anybody try to petition the saintly instead of the Trinity?
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Instead of?

Asking Christians in Heaven to pray with you and for you to God doesn’t necessarily exclude asking God directly, any more than asking Christians on Earth to pray with you and for you to God excludes asking God directly.

There *may * be those who *mistakenly * ask Christians (whether on Earth or in Heaven) to pray for them, at the exclusion of asking God directly, but it’s fallacious to conclude that the asking of Christians (whether on Earth or in Heaven) to pray with us and for us to God intrinsically entails the exclusion of praying directly to God.
 
Omnicient menas knows all at once, omnipresent means everywhere at once…

Hearing millions of prayers does not mean she hears all prayers, and being outside our concept of time and space means she can hear one prayer at time and still seem to us like she is hearing all prayers, also she ony hears the prayers God allows for her to hear, precisely because she is not God, In fact you only hear the request for prayers God allows for you to hear as well…
 
Tim Hayes:
…

“One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
…
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.”
…
For those non catholics, Ask yourself this question. If in heaven they cannot hear us then our petitions to them are in vain, but we have neither lost or gained anything. If they can hear us then our petitions can achieve much. By requestiing the intercession of the “Saints” we can only win, or break even so to speak.

…
Tim Hayes
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But John does not “explicitly” tell us that the saints are praying intercessory prayers. Revelations 5:8 indicates that the bowl of incense represented the prayers "of" the Saints not "to" (or via or cc) the Saints. The Good Book does not indicate that nature of the Saint’s prayers. All we really know from this is that Saints pray.

And I reiterate that this issue is not about what the Saints (or Angels like Gabriel) do, or how they communicate to God or Mary. The issue is how people relate to their god (“g”). The 10 Commandments were handed down from God to Moses for his people. His people must follow these commandments, and the first is, “You shall have no other gods before me.” So, while it might seem attactive to reach a middle ground by saying that at worst we “break even” by praying to/via/cc a saint, there is a big problem with interjecting the Saint between you and God. God works through Saints, no doubt, but people should go through God.

I note that the break-even approach can work another way. Regardless of the first commandment, if one believes it is proper to pray directly to God and to Saints, you will “break even” by praying only to God. Indeed, if the risk is violating a commandment, why take the risk? This is especially true for those whose postings on this topic seek to minimize the role of the saint. If your willing to minimize, then go all the way.

The issue becomes more serious for those seek favor of a “patron saint” by making vows, fasting, praying or make other acts of worship to the saint. Such folks might as well rely on their own works to get into heaven. Putting their faith in the saint, just like putting it in good works, mammon or a golden idol, is not the road to justificaton by faith in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

MartyL
 
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