Praying to Mary.

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Revelations 8, 3-4
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Here we see that the prayers of those on earth go through the angel, who present their prayers. The angel serves as a mini-mediator who presents these prayers to God. This passage is another one that shows that prayers from those on earth are actually presented by God’s servants in heaven, to God. Since we know that they do pray for us, how can we disregard God‘s servants in heaven?

Which ever way you want to look at it, the prayers of the Saints whether they be in heaven or earth are now being directed to God from the Angles, in other words the angels now act as mediators in offering the prayers of the Saints to God.

Now if we talk about the Saints in heaven surely they have no need of angels interceding with God on their behalf. Are you going to insist that the Saints in heaven cannot have their prayers directly answered by God without going through Angels.

In fact it is quite obvious that the Saints referred to in this paragraph are the Saints on earth and their prayers in this part are being heard by the Angels and then forwarded to God.

Unless their is advantage in having Angels or Saints in heaven sending our prayers to God, why do our prayers have to be offered to God through them.

In Christ

Tim Hayes
 
To many people analyze and theorize from the outside. The key is to enter the mystery. Prayer to/with Mary is real and can change your life.
 
Tim Hayes:
…
Unless their is advantage in having Angels or Saints in heaven sending our prayers to God, why do our prayers have to be offered to God through them.

In Christ

Tim Hayes
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Tim, respectfully, that is my point. Our prayers are to be offered to in intiment discourse with God directly, not Saints or Angels:

“But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will repay you. … Pray, then in this way: Our Father, who art in heaven …”
Matthew 6: 6-9. Saintly third parties aren’t invited to this event.

Regarding the passages from Revelations, Chapter 8, let me note that they foretell what most people consider future events. I didn’t see in the NY Times today or recently that the Seventh Seal had been broken, that hail mixed with blood and that a third of the earth, trees and grass were burned up. I have been rather distracted at work lately, I must admit, but I think I would have caught that one.

When you get right down to it, God through Moses and Jesus plainly told us, people, what to do. Pray to Him. References about what Elders, Horsemen, Beasts, Angels and Saints, in Heaven, in the future, are not nearly as germane on that point.

MartyL
 
Marty, There is absolutely no need whatsoever for those humans in heaven or the angels to present our prayers to God, if according to you, our prayers/requests should only go directly to God.

The whole point of Protestant disagreement with Catholicism is that Protestants say that those in heaven don’t know what is going on in our realm so therefore any requests for intercession made by them cannot be of any value because they never receive them.

Surely you agree that we are taught in scripture to pray for one another or in other words ask other people on earth to interced via prayer with God on our behalf, Do you affirm that this is correct?

The whole point of Revelation quotation is to show that those in heaven, deceased humans(Saints) and Angels(Saints) know what is going on on earth and can intercede with God.

Tell me If what you say is correct and those in heaven cannot intercede with God on our behalf, then why does it show in Revelation that the deceased humans(Saints) and Angels (Saints) presenting our prayers to God. Why does the prayer go through these Saints?

In Christ

Tim
 
Hi Homer

Catholics do pray to Mary but not as a god, at Cana Mary said to Jesus" they have no wine" -------Mary said “do as he tells you”
and I’m sure you know the rest.
At Calvary Jesus said “Woman behold thy son, son behold thy mother”
From that moment on Mary stayed with John, he looked after her from then on.
When we pray to Mary, she presents our prayers to Jesus, and He presents them to the Father, this will alay the fears that many have when Jesus says that no-one comes to the Father but through me.
And Catholics don’t pray to statues, you wouldn’t think of getting rid of your photographic album, that reminds you of your loved ones, images I might add, little children need visable symbols"Out of sight is out of mind" we are all little children in the eyes of GOD.
Thats why I think those Churches that take the statues especially of the Sacred Heart and the Imaculate Heart of Mary are in grave error.
There are a lot of idols around at the minute that people worship, money,television,porn,sex, but it is a natural inclination for humans to sin, and it is a constant battle with sin, that is why prayer and the sarcaments are so important.
Pray not to be put to the test.

God Bless—Stephen

olrl.org/apologetics/one_church.shtml

catholicism.org/pages/aubrey.htm
 
Hi all, been busy lately. I will just give my conclusion after examining this debate. The main problem is that Catholics say that we need to pray via/cc Mary and the Saints but from my point of view i see that Jesus came to earth and died so we will be saved and that’s enough for me. I don’t feel like i need anyone to pray via/cc/through him/her because God will always listen to us, we are all his children.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 2:5).
 
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homer:
We all know that ONLY God possess the following attributes:
Omnipotent (all-powerful)
Omni-present (everywhere)
Omniscient (all-knowing)

You have millions of prayers a second being offered to Mary (Also prayers offered to saints). People in all over the world, are praying the Rosary, asking Mary to be there at the hour of their death, asking her to guide them, help them, teach them, secure for them eternal redemption and imploring her to come dwell in their hearts as though she were able to fulfill all these requests! A Catholic may deny that Mary is a god, but by asking all these things of her, she would have to be God to do them. She must have powers and capabilities that are only possessed with God.

Please can someone give me an explanation for this contradiction?
Thank you.
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Homer,

Read the following…that is if you want to know the Truth.

catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

and

cin.org/users/james/questions/q062.htm

"Q: I always understood the Bible to say that there is one mediator between God and Man, the man Jesus Christ. For this reason, it seems wrong to me to ask Mary to intercede for us.

A: Jesus is certainly the only Mediator in the sense that he his the only God-man, the only Person who serves as a bridge between the human and the divine in that way, as 1 Timothy 2:5 (the verse you quote) indicates.

However, Jesus’ unique role as the only God-man does not mean that nobody else gets to pray for us. This is clear if you read 1 Tim. 2:1-4, in which Paul says that we should all pray for everybody. So in the very same passage that Paul describes Jesus as the one Mediator, he also says that we should all pray and intercede for others. This is what Mary and the other heavenly saints do for us, just as people down here on earth do.

When you ask another Christian here on earth to pray for you, you are asking an earthly saint to intercede on your behalf. When you ask Mary to pray for you, you are doing the exact same thing, only it is a heavenly saint instead. Protestants ask earthly saints to pray for them; Catholics simply broaden this to all of the family of God and ask out heavenly brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us as well as our brothers and sisters here on earth.

In fact, we know they pray for us already because, if you read Revelation 5:8, you will see the twenty-four elders (who represent the leaders of the people of God in heaven) offering to God the prayers of the saints. Thus we have the heavenly saints offering to God the prayers of the earthly saints. Thus we only ask our heavenly brothers and sisters to do what they are already anxious to do on our behalf, just as our earthly brother and sister Christians wish to pray for us whenever we are in need."
 
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homer:
Hi all, been busy lately. I will just give my conclusion after examining this debate. The main problem is that Catholics say that we need to pray via/cc Mary and the Saints but from my point of view i see that Jesus came to earth and died so we will be saved and that’s enough for me. I don’t feel like i need anyone to pray via/cc/through him/her because God will always listen to us, we are all his children.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 2:5).
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Hi Homer,

First of all, I would like to summarize the 2 aspects that have been discussed regarding the prayers of the Saints on earth and in Heaven.
Your original question was of how can Mary and the rest of the Saints in Heaven hear our prayers since according to you only God can do that.
I believe that the answer has alrady been given several times. We all (Catholics) agree that when we go to Heaven, we get the ability to know things in a way similar to how God knows them (of course because God wanted it to be so). This we know not because we invented it but because it was so tought by St. Paul
in his 1st letter to the Corinthians 13:12 ans so we read:

“For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.”

So there you are, it is in the bible stated that when “the perfect comes” (When we are in Heaven). We’ll be able to know what is going on on earth and hear what people are praying.

The other part of your argument in more centered on “Why do Catholics Paray to Mary/Saints?” or “Why do they pray through Mary/Saints?”.

On this issue I want to clarify to you once more, because it has been said many times. We do not pray neither through or to Mary or the Saints. We simply ask them to pray for us. This was adressed very early in the thread however you keep insisting on us praying through or to Mary/Saints. Now that gives me the impresion that you are not being honest with yourself or the rest of the people. Because the moment you accept it your whole argument falls down. The moment you start realizing that what we are dointg is NOT what you thought but something which is ok and good your confidence and arguments start to shake, you go back to try to affirm we do something we really don’t.
Now the reason why we ask them to pray for us is not only one, but several I will mention a couple:
  1. We ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us in the same way we ask other saints on earth to do so. For a very important priciple called the “Communion of the Saints” which means that we all support each other and are united in Faith, Heart and Spirit i Christ Jesus. Therefore it is good to pray for each other and have the others pray for us. Saints DO NOT loose their communion with all their brohters when they go to Heaven on the contrary they understand it better and therefore live it more deeply.
  2. Prayers of the Saints in Heaven are more perfect than prayers of the saints on earth, simply because they have reached the fullness of Holyness by the Holy Spirit. Therefore they will be able to put forward a much more pleasing prayer to God than we can. All this in the same context Imentioned before (no 1).
In summary, if you pray for your brothers and ask them to pray for you when their prayers might be a bit better or not than yours. How much more should we get our brothers in Heaven inbolved in praying for us!!!
You have seen that it says in the bible that they can hear us, that they can bring (together with the angels) our prayers to God (as it has been mentioned before). Furthermore, you probably agree when someone prays for you while being imperfect here on earth, so what is your problem with having someone pray a much more perfected prayer for you in Heaven?

If you seek the truth you will find it. If you just want to confuse people you better examine yourself.

Blessings,
J.C.
 
Intercessory prayer: asking those in Heaven and on Earth to pray with us and for us to God.

Is this necessary? No.

Will God hear you if you ask him directly? Of course.

But if it’s good enough for Paul to ask his readers to pray with him and for him to God, then . . . . . 🙂
 
:blessyou: Homer,

The most important thing that I must remember to do from a Catholic’s point of view is; according to my own free will, remain in the state of Grace. Now, as for praying to Mary, in my opinion,
Mary is our TRUE model of chastity, humility, love and obedience. She lives now with her Son, Jesus in Heaven. She prays incessantly for our souls (through Him to God the Father in union with The Holy Spirit), and for the souls of all the Faithful, especially those who are in need of God’s grace. As you know from the Bible, (see at end of this note)she has been endowed with many Graces. Luke 1: 46:55(Canticle of Mary) The first being born without original sin, the second was the request from God to carry The Word, and God Himself with the Holy Spirit. (Because you cannot separate the three) Today is the Feast of the Holy Trinity. How important a task was that? WOW!
We look to her as an example of how to be virtuous. How to love, how to be good and how to suffer, to be meek and humble and all the wonderful attributes that we normally do not have. All virtues that must be worked on day by day, year by year. She suffers each time we sin, because each sin hurts her Son, Jesus, and diminishes our possibility of getting to Heaven with her and her Son. But she is known as The Refuge of all Sinners. Sinners all can come to her and ask her for prayers to her Son for help. When all else fails, go to His Mother. A mother has special qualities that noone else has. A tender spot. That is why Jesus
left us such a great gift…His Mom. That we can understand and love and thank Him for. There is nothing a son would not do for his momma. Because we cannot see Christ, or His mother or any of the Saints does not mean that they are not prepared and ready to intercede for us. That is the Communion of Saints, our Heavenly saints waiting to hear our prayers and bring them to the altar of God. But know this, We do not Adore her!!! That would be sinful. But we do honor and Love her and thank her for her great role in bringing our Saviour to the world. And here is her beautiful song.

Canticle of Mary (Luke 1: 46-53)
My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord,
my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant.

From this day all generations will call me blessed:
the Almighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his Name.

He has mercy on those who fear him
in every generation.

He has shown the strength of his arm,
he has scattered the proud in their conceit.

He has cast down the mighty from their thrones,
and has lifted up the lowly.

He has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent away empty.

He has come to the help of his servant Israel
for he has remembered his promise of mercy,
the promise he made to our fathers,
to Abraham and his children for ever.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now,
and will be for ever. Amen
 
First, let us understand how the kingdom of heaven works. To understand this we must look at the model from David’s kingdom in the OT. Here is an example found in 1 Kings 2: 13-20.

"Now Adonijah, the son of Haggith, went to Bathsheba, Solomon’s mother. Bathsheba asked him, “Do you come peacefully?” He answered, “Yes, peacefully.” Then he added, “I have something to say to you.” “You may say it,” she replied. “As you know,” he said, “the kingdom was mine. All Israel looked to me as their king. But things changed, and the kingdom has gone to my brother; for it has come to him from the LORD . Now I have one request to make of you. Do not refuse me.”

“You may make it,” she said. So he continued, “Please ask King Solomon-he will not refuse you-to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife.” “Very well,” Bathsheba replied, “I will speak to the king for you.” When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand. “I have one small request to make of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.”
The king replied, “Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you.”

Get it?

Well, from my limited knowledge but massive interpretation, let’s look at it like this: They asked the Queen to speak to the king on their behalf, so we too should PRAY to Mary to speak to THE KING on our behalf. “Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you.”

That is my final answer. 👋
 
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homer:
We all know that ONLY God possess the following attributes:
Omnipotent (all-powerful)
Omni-present (everywhere)
Omniscient (all-knowing)

You have millions of prayers a second being offered to Mary (Also prayers offered to saints). People in all over the world, are praying the Rosary, asking Mary to be there at the hour of their death, asking her to guide them, help them, teach them, secure for them eternal redemption and imploring her to come dwell in their hearts as though she were able to fulfill all these requests! A Catholic may deny that Mary is a god, but by asking all these things of her, she would have to be God to do them. She must have powers and capabilities that are only possessed with God.

Please can someone give me an explanation for this contradiction?
Thank you.
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Dude!
There IS no contradiction at all,at all. If Jesus is the Messiah that makes him the King of Israel, right? That makes Mary the “Giberah” or Queen Mother. (See Solomon’s Queen) The position was one of intercession for the needy. Mary obviously knew this from the outset as displayed in John 2 where we have the first record of her simple intercession. Her message down through the centuries of her repeated apparitions has been just the same. 'Do whatever he tells you". Mary PRAYS for us…God answers her prayers because " the effective fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much ". (See the letter of St. James).

*A Catholic may deny that Mary is a god, but by asking all these things of her, she would have to be God to do them. She must have powers and capabilities that are only possessed with God. *

THIS argument falls flat because it would then mean that all the miracles done by any & all of the apostles & saints would make them gods by your logic.You think either/or…we see it as what it really is. By your lights you cannot pray for me because you haven’t the godhead to answer my prayerful needs.

You also have no concept of the intercession of saints…yet what is that “great cloud of witnesses” in Hebrews 12…& Revelation speaks of angels offering the prayers of the saints to God. Sorry…there’s no idolatry here for you to condemn.

Further…What are angels all about then? God surely doesn’t NEED them to accomplish anything…yet He clearly sends them to do things for Him. I daresay you’ll have no reasonable answer for that. Read up on all the appearances of angels in the Bible & then explain that to me. I don’t think you can…but Catholics can…from the Bible.
 
ANY FRIEND OF GOD’S IS A FRIEND OF MINE

By Patrick Madrid
**
**
Little book packed with lots of great info on the Saints. Your question is answered in a very concise way in this book.
 
Church Militant:
There IS no contradiction at all,at all. If Jesus is the Messiah that makes him the King of Israel, right? That makes Mary the “Giberah” or Queen Mother. (See Solomon’s Queen) The position was one of intercession for the needy.
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Yes, Jesus is the Messiah, born King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2). But contrary to your logic, that does not make Mary Queen of anything. At the annunciation Mary was told by Gabriel that the Son she would conceive would be given, by God, the throne of His (earthly) father David and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever…(Lk. 1:32-33). It is the throne of David that Jesus will inherit, not Solomon’s. David did not elevate his mother to “Queen”; his government recognized no such position.
The position was one of intercession for the needy.
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From where do you get such a notion? Certainly not from 1 Kings 2. In fact, Bathsheba came before Solomon not expecting to be made “Queen Mother” and to sit on a throne beside him (this was unprecedented), but to make a deceitful plea on behalf of Adonijah, Solomon’s half brother. A favor, if granted, would have served to usurp her son’s throne. She was hardly interceding for the “needy.” And there’s nothing in the subsequent historical accounts that this new “Queen Mother” position was ever created for the purpose of interceding for the “needy.” Bathsheba was not wise, in fact quite foolish, for taking Adonijah’s request before the king. And Solomon himself acted unwisely by impulsively setting up such a position in the kingdom. Israel’s history reveals it often granted power to very corrupt women.
Mary obviously knew this from the outset as displayed in John 2 where we have the first record of her simple intercession.
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Mary was not told by Gabriel at the annunciation she would be made “Queen.” To say she understood this by her words at the wedding at Cana is not warranted by anything revealed there. One must impose such an idea INTO that passage. You certainly can’t arrive at that notion FROM from it. This is the old practice of imposing a fully developed, non-Biblical doctrine onto isolated Biblical passages. It does violence to the text and in the long run serves to discredit the Scriptures for the sake of one’s religious beliefs.
 
Not getting into typology or anything like that, by defintion Queen Mother is the mother of a King. Christ is THE King. Mary is His mother. That would make her Queen Mother. Can you see this?

Your sister in Christ,

Maria
 
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MartyL:
. The issue becomes more serious for those seek favor of a “patron saint” by making vows, fasting, praying or make other acts of worship to the saint. Such folks might as well rely on their own works to get into heaven. Putting their faith in the saint, just like putting it in good works, mammon or a golden idol, is not the road to justificaton by faith in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
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Catholics do not “make acts of worship to a saint.” Catholics pray to the saints because we have always done so; we learned it from the Apostles. Inscribed on the tomb of the Valerii family located near the tomb of St. Peter are the words: “Peter pray for the pious men who are buried near your body.” The catacombs are full of inscriptions asking the saints for their intercession.

To make intercession for another is biblical. St. Paul asked others to pray for him. Come-lately Protestants are disconnected from Christian history and thus object to the practice; but our ancestors in faith have been praying to the saints for 2,000 years. So we’ll keep right on asking for their prayers. And we do it because it gets results! I’m sorry you don’t have the friends we do in heaven. As the title of a book by Patrick Madrid about this subject says, ANY FRIEND OF GOD’S IS A FRIEND OF MINE.

To pray means to ask. We ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us. God is the recipient of all prayer, so what’s the big deal? Who has the most influence, the saints or sinful me? I and a saint or two can ask God to grant my prayer, can’t we? Well, I’ll answer that. Yes, we can.

Patron Saints are role models of Christian life. We aim to imitate their lives in the hope that one day we will join them in heaven.

Catholics do not believe good works will save us. That’s a Protestant myth. Works salvation was declared a heresy at the Council of Orange in 529. We are justified by grace through faith working in love, and not by faith alone.

JMJ Jay
 
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homer:
Hi all, been busy lately. I will just give my conclusion after examining this debate. **The main problem is that Catholics say that we need to pray via/cc Mary and the Saints ** but from my point of view i see that Jesus came to earth and died so we will be saved and that’s enough for me. I don’t feel like i need anyone to pray via/cc/through him/her because God will always listen to us, we are all his children.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 2:5).
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Your biggest problem, homer, is that you honestly believe that the Catholic church teaches as doctrine that we NEED to pray to Mary and the saints. The problem is, that we don’t, and the church doesn’t teach that. You’re confusing doctrine with practice. Doctrine, is what you believe. Practice, is what is used to carry out that belief in everyday life. You, yourself have Christian practices, or else, you wouldn’t read your Bible, you wouldn’t pray, or anything like that. When you have Christian practice ALONG WITH Christian doctrine and belief, that’s wonderful. When you mix them up and confuse one for another, then it’s not-so-wonderful. Having a crucifix in your home, the rosary, having an advent wreathe, celebrating Christmas in some sort of special way in your home, etc, are practices. The divinity of Christ, the Trinity, Christ’s true human and divine natures, yet him not being two people, but one, are beliefs held by Christians. They can’t be compromised. The rosary, and things like that can be easily changed and modified with the times. Prayer to saints and particular devotions can be modified, can be changed, can fall asleep and come back to life, and sometimes, can die completely. Not that they aren’t important in how we live our lives, but they don’t matter as much as, say, the incarnation. You’re confusing one for the other, and your saying that the Catholic Church teaches that you MUST DO THESE THINGS, when really, you don’t have to. It’s not manditory that you pray the rosary, or do the devotion of the first 5 Saturdays, or pray the St. Michael prayer, or anything like that to be a good Catholic. It would be very unusual for a good Catholic to not do those things, indeed. What the church stresses, is that through these acts of devotion, and through asking the saints, especially Mary, the mother of God incarnate for their prayers, we can be EVEN GREATER CATHOLICS! 🙂 Through the prayers of not only our brothers and sisters on Earth, but also of our brothers and sisters in heaven, we can be profused with grace from God, by their petitions before him on our behalf, and can become saints, just like the saints in heaven. That’s all it is. Nothing more, nothing less. We don’t complicate the matter, you’re just complicating it by insinuating, (falsely), that we as Catholics believe that this is manditory, or required. Nothing says that anywhere, and you’re right in saying so, but don’t knock something for what it’s not, knock it for what it is. I guaruntee that when you see the Catholic faith for what it is, then you won’t even be knocking it anymore, that is, unless you’re still completely against the church founded by Christ if and when you find out! 😉
 
All devotions to Mary and the saints ultimately glorify their Creator, who made them what they are. Could we possibly praise the Mona Lisa without praising Leonardo DaVinci? That masterpiece certainly did not paint itself! Even so, Mary is God’s great masterpiece, and all praise given to her is praise of Her Maker

Biblical Basis When Elizabeth praises Mary, saying “Blessed art thou amongst women”, Mary immediately replies “My soul doth magnify the Lord…” (Luke 1:42; 46). All the devotion which we offer her redounds to God’s praise and glory

Objections

  1. *]How can you say you don’t worship Mary when the most important Catholic prayer - the Rosary - is a prayer to Mary?

    The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the most important Catholic prayer, not the Rosary! And the Mass is offered to God alone.

    *]In the Rosary you say ten Hail Marys for every one Our Father; you must think that Mary is ten times more important than God!

    That’s your interpretation, not ours. We say so many Hail Marys in the Rosary because it is a devotion with a Marian emphasis. We also have numerous devotions which center on Jesus, such as the Way of the Cross, Enthronement of the Sacred Heart, Benediction, etc.

    *]Catholics have composed more prayers to Mary than to God.

    Have you researched this? Have you actually counted every single Catholic prayer written in every language all over the globe during the past two millenia? If not, your objection is speculative and carries not weight.

    *]Do you really believe that you can be assured of salvation by wearing the Brown Scapular? Not without true faith and confidence in God and living a Christian life. Scapulars are intended as outward signs of inner faith. All who would use them superstitiously, thinking that they are magic passports which will get them admitted into heaven no matter what they do during life, are misusing this sacramental and so are certainly not assured of salvation. It is truly proper to glorify you who have borne God;
    the Ever-Blessed and Immaculate Mother of our God.
    More honorable than the Cherubim
    and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim,
    Who a virgin gave birth to God the Word.
    You, truly the Mother of God, we magnify!:blessyou:
 
Ozzie, you lack the viewpoint of a Jew or a Gentile listening to the teachings of the apostles in the first century. They knew of Kingdoms and monarchs, and the Jews especially, understood typology, and the fulfillment of many aspects of Judaism in Christianity. How then, are you putting scripture, written for an ancient audience, yet putting what is said into a modern day context? How can you do this and say that you’re interpreting scritpure correctly? How can you actually tell me, “this is what the scriptures say”, when the scriptures have no knowledge of today, or anything like that? As far as they were concerned, a lot of things that exist today, they thought would never exist. They would probably think that some things we have today, such as this computer I’m typing on, to be sorcery, or maybe democracy to be some crazy idea. They probably would have never dreamed of anything like what we have today. You have to look at the scriptures through the eyes of a Jewish man living in the Roman Empire in the first century to understand what the scriptures are really saying, what they really want to get across. They didn’t have democracy, they had monarchies and principalities. They didn’t govern themselves, someone else governed them, and someone else told them what they could do and what they could not do. The same with Christianity. This isn’t the democracy of God. Even you would admit, as scripture admits, that God established a kingdom, and a king builds his kingdom on subjects. This is not some democracy that we’re running. We don’t govern God, quite the opposite, God governs us. We don’t see things the way we see them and go from there. We look to the one who is the ruler, or in some cases, the one whom he built his kingdom on to take up that capacity to command his subjects in his name. Read Philemon. Paul says that he could very well command Philemon to take Onesimus back as his brother in Christ, but he’s asking him in love. You could probably read throughout the epistles and find places where Paul says that he could command or order, any other synonym to the verb, that the Christians he’s writing to, do something. He has that authority, not to get into another issue, I’m just trying to make a point here. God built his kingdom on men who did his will. He still is. We are workers in the kingdom, trying to build it up. He is our monarch, not our president. We don’t vote on anything that we want, he does as he wills, because he’s God our King, not our president that has to submit to someone else. So much more would be clearer if you simply didn’t, in a sense, “Americanize” Christianity. 🙂
 
In the Davidic tradition, the mother of the king is the queen. Jesus is Lord = Mary is queen.

As children of God, we do not HAVE to ever say a word to Mary to get to Heaven. As children of God, we GET to talk to Mary about going to Heaven.

Jesus talked to dead people in the transfiguration. Jesus never sinned.

Jesus prayed to God in the Garden of Gethsemane. If prayer were worship, is God worshipping Himself?

The saints are actually closer to us after dying than they ever were in life. Our Church transcends time, space, and mortal existence straight into Heaven. Cool, huh?

Marty and Homer, it is soooo much better over here!
 
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