Praying to Mary.

[mercygate]

Ozzie:

You can’t ASK saints in Heaven to intercede for you except that you do so via PRAYER TO them. When you pray TO them to ask them to intercede for you, then you are expecting them to answer that prayer request TO them. Bottom line, you’re PRAYING to them. This has no Biblical or Apostolic backing. It’s in fact, blasphemous!

WBB was right. You seem not to have a clear idea of what the Communion of Saints is – at least in the Catholic understanding. If you are part of a faith-group which holds to the Apostles’ Creed, then pursuing a little study of this could be really wonderful for you.

But perhaps your position is that the Saints in Heaven share a communion among themselves that they do not share with us, and that we on earth share a communion that we do not share with the saints in Heaven. While that runs afoul of Our Lord’s vine-and-branch image, I understand there are groups that believe that.

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

Ozzie:

From where do you learn to pray TO “saints” from the Apostles? That inscription on the Valerii tomb is not the words of Peter. Where is it recorded in Scripture that Peter ever instructed anyone to pray TO him? The inscriptions in the catacombs are the superstitious words of men, not God.Absolutely! To make intercessory prayer FOR someone is Biblical. ALL true believers are priests of God and can intercede for others through prayer. But to pray TO someone other than God is not ever found in Scripture. Paul did ask, by letter, for the brethren to pray FOR Him (1 Thess. 5:25; 2 Thess. 3:1; cf. Heb. 13:8). But can you give me one instance where Paul instructed them to pray TO him either before his death or after? Jay, I can ask you via this medium to pray FOR me, but would I be doing the same thing if I were to humble my heart, bow my head, get on my knees and pray TO you (I feel dirty just saying it)? That would put a whole different spin on it, my friend.

For one thing, Peter wouldn’t instruct people to pray to him while he’s alive, because they wouldn’t. People are in a sense “prayed to” after their souls have left their human bodies. That argument doesn’t amount to anything. You use the word prayer so subjectively. You remember, the church doesn’t have much modernized language. The terms and expressions we use were used way back in the day towards the middle ages and things like that. We don’t categorize things into subjective little families of words that mean only one thing as a protestant or a modern day person would. A lot of the speech we use is old-time translation and meaning. In case you didn’t know, meaning changes over time. To secular people, chastity means not having sex. To the church, chastity means accepting God’s plan of sexuality and love in all walks of life, to marriage, the priesthood, single lifestyle, any type of life we lead. The sense in which you simply ask Jay to pray for you for a certain intention, or just to pray for you, would be the same way in which you would approach a saint to pray for you, but you do it with reverence, because this person is a SAINT for crying out loud! They are with God in heaven in perfection and full of grace. Jay is just another Christian on Earth trying to make it. Your problem is this whole Sola Scriptura thing, which is that you want blatant proof text of Catholic belief and practice in scripture. For one, it’s not likely that you find Catholic practice in scripture because practice is another thing from doctrine, and not the same. Doctrine you would find if you just opened your eyes and stopped interpreting things in your own little subjective way. The things that you believe are found only implicitely stated in scripture, yet you act as though it’s blatantly saying what you want it to say, as though it’s obvious. To someone who doesn’t know anything about scripture, that would seem like the case, but we aren’t dumb, we aren’t new at this. We know exactly what you do to get your info and we know that you’re just banking on obscure Bible passages and outlandish interpretations of them.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Corpus Cristi:

…the church doesn’t have much modernized language.

This is a key to many of the misundertandings of the Catholic faith. Language barriers and misunderstandings have led many to become confused about how Catholics live a Christian life.

Unfortunately, as time goes by and our language continues to be transformed, there will be more misunderstandings and continued schism within Christianity.

 

[MariaG]

posted by Maria
Not getting into typology or anything like that, by defintion Queen Mother is the mother of a King. Christ is THE King. Mary is His mother. That would make her Queen Mother. Can you see this?

Your sister in Christ,

posted by Ozzie
The Christian faith is not based on earthly definitions, but divine revelation. That’s what separates truth from fiction, true Christianity from all other religions on earth. Can you not understand this?

I was not asking about what the Bible says or the Apostles, I was just asking if you understood that people who live now would say that since Christ is The King, Mary would be Queen Mother. And at the time of the Mary, it would have simply been Queen. Is it so hard to admit that the title queen for Mary is in any way logical?

I would be glad to discuss further with you about Mary from a divine revelation point. But until you can at least admit from an earthly point the Mary is a Queen/Queen Mother, I truly can see no point.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

Ozzie:

The Christian faith is not based on earthly definitions, but divine revelation. That’s what separates truth from fiction, true Christianity from all other religions on earth. Can you not understand this? Did Jesus, His Apostles, prophets, angelic beings or divinely inspired writings ever refer to her as “Queen Mother?” Is such a position assigned to her anywhere in Scripture? Is it recorded in Scripture that Jesus said to Mary that when He ascends to the Father He will set up a throne for her there? Men have no power to assign to Mary a Heavenly position that God has not. True Christianity is based on divine revelation, not men’s imagination.
QUOTE]

You’re right, the Christian faith is based on divine revelation. Are you insinuating that the Catholic faith is based on mans definitions? Well it’s not. Over time, as we’ve continued to be led by the holy spirit into all truth (if you think that we’ve figured out absolutely everything, you’d be surprised when you step into the future), things have come up, such as heresies and things that are effecting the church and culture today, such as the sexual revolution. The early church didn’t deal with ANYTHING like what we’re dealing with now. This isn’t man’s imagination, this is the guidance of the holy spirit. No one’s forcing you to believe it, if you don’t want to believe it, fine, but to try and REASON for us not to believe it with scripture, something that comes from the same divine wellspring as sacred tradition and magestrial teaching? Don’t make me laugh! You only have your opinions of what the Bible says and what Christianity is, much less the truth.

 

[mkesser47]

A Protestant girl who i work with wants to know why Catholics pray to Mary and not straight to God or not to God at all. Can someone please give me an answer that would convince her that it is alright to pray to Mary and that there is a Biblical basis for it?

 

[MariaG]

The easiest way to explain it is to point out that the word pray has a older meaning than is commonly used today. Today, most Christians think of the word pray as something that applies only to God. This has not always been the case. And as a very old religion, Catholic Christians also have used this old meaning.

Pray to Mary = Ask Mary to pray for us

The Bible is filled with Christians asking others to pray for them.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

mkesser47:

A Protestant girl who i work with wants to know why Catholics pray to Mary and not straight to God or not to God at all. Can someone please give me an answer that would convince her that it is alright to pray to Mary and that there is a Biblical basis for it?

Well, a very good way to get info is to go to the following pages:

catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

catholic.com/library/Rosary.asp

Also, a good way to get info is the look throughout this post and other posts like this so you can not only find apologetics for this, but also find the objections that people bring up, and other things that people might say, including scriptures that they bring up with faulty and sometimes, outlandish interpretations.

 

[Axion]

Ozzie:

The Christian faith is not based on earthly definitions, but divine revelation. That’s what separates truth from fiction, true Christianity from all other religions on earth. Can you not understand this?

What you ignore is the fact that typology is extremely important in scriptural interpretation. And Jesus is specifically spoken of in scripture as inheriting the Kingship of the Line of David.

Luke 1:32
He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David.

As such, Jesus adopts all the attributes of that Kingship. One of those attributes is that His mother is Queen Mother, as with all the Kings of the line of David.

Did Jesus, His Apostles, prophets, angelic beings or divinely inspired writings ever refer to her as “Queen Mother?” Is such a position assigned to her anywhere in Scripture?

Mary is seen Crowned in Heaven in Revelation 12.
1 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. 5 she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

King David never elevated his mother to such a position, hence, one cannot refer to it as “Davidic tradition.”

All the Kings listed for Israel and Judah in the OT, are listed with their respective Queen Mothers.

And what debunks this whole false “Queen Mother” doctrine is the fact that Jesus Himself is not yet reigning and ruling over the Davidic Kingdom… His reign will not occur until He returns to this earth and sets up His Messianic kingdom, and reigns over it from Jerusalem .

I am afraid the above is all misguided dispensationalist cod-theology! Jesus is King now. His kingdom exists now. Or do you deny that? His Kingdom is not earthly but of the Spirit. The idea that Jesus is going to establish a physical earthly kingdom in Jerusalem, and that His kingdom is going to have to wait until then to appear, is a catastrophic error.

Jesus Himself yet anticipates the day when He will sit on HIS THRONE, but for now He shares His Father’s in Heaven, not as King, but as High Priest and Advocate for believers.

Jesus can function both as King and High Priest simultaneously. It is a continual error of some evangelicals to see things in terms of “either/or” instead of “as well as”.

Jesus differentiates between His Father’s throne in Heaven from that of His future throne on earth in Rev. 3:21. And we see this being fulfilled prophetically in Matt. 25:31 where it says, *“But WHEN the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, THEN He will sit on His glorious throne.” *
THEN he will sit on His throne of judgement. This does not mean he is not King NOW. This is another false “either/or”.

Mary cannot be reigning as “Queen Mother” in Heaven when Jesus Himself is not even reigning there as “King.”

Your argument depends on denying that Jesus is **now ** heavenly King. And this is the great hole of error that you fall into with this argument.

John 12:
13 So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the **King ** of Israel!” 14 And Jesus found a young *** and sat upon it; as it is written, 15 “Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, your **king ** is coming, sitting on an ***'s colt!”

Col 1:13 -
He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

 

[mayra_hart]

2:5).Why do Catholics pray to Mary and the saints when Sacred Scripture states that there is one Mediator between God and man – Christ Jesus? (1 Tim.

When Catholics pray to Mary and the other saints in Heaven they are not bypassing Christ, whom they acknowledge as the sole Mediator between God and man. They are going to Christ through Mary and the other saints. They are asking Mary and other saints to intercede for them before the throne of Christ in Heaven. “For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.” (James 5:16). How much more availing is the unceasing prayer of the sinless Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ! St. Paul asked his fellow Christians to intercede for him: “Brethren, pray for us.” (2 Thess. 3:1). And again: “I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God . . .” (Rom. 15:30). Christ must particularly approve of our going to Him through Mary, His Blessed Mother, because He chose to come to us through her. And at Cana, He performed His first miracle after a word from His Mother. (John 2:2-11).

It is clear in Sacred Scripture that the saints in Heaven will intercede for us before the throne of Christ if they are petitioned in prayer (Apoc. or Rev. 8:3-4), and it is clear in the records of primitive Christianity that the first Christians eagerly sought their intercession. Wrote St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century: “When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies, but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power.” If the saints have such power with God, how much more His own Mother.

 

[StubbleSpark]

A few things about my former Protestant faith that bugged me is the idea that even though Mary is undisputable Mother of God, no Protestant (except for maybe the very high Protestants like Anglicans) will ever call her that.

One objection I have heard is that Mary is only the mother of Jesus’ earthly body but this is a poor excuse. Seeing as our earthly mothers do not supply our bodies with a soul, yet we still call them “mother.”

Do you think Jesus in Heaven calls his mother “Mary”? How disrespectful! “Hey Mary, how are things coming?” I think Our Lord knows better than Bart Simpson. He would refer to her by her title: Mother. And because we are members of His divine family through baptism, we also MUST refer to her by her title: Mother.

Yet even this very simple practice is denied in Protestant circles (nevermind that Luther died praying the rosary). Why? Why insist on calling her “Mary” as if she were some relative stranger to whom we have no real connection? In reality, this is the resurfacing of the old Nestorian heresy in which it was disputed that if you could call Mary the “Mother of God” then you could also say that “God was a three month old baby.” By attacking Mary’s rightful place as the mother of God, Nestorius also attacked the very divinity of Chirst.

newadvent.org/cathen/05491a.htm

Marian teachings have always been the most sturdy of bullwarks to defend Christological teachings. “She is the moat around Christ” (Tim Staples). Marian heresies always end in Christological heresies. If you deny one, you deny the other.

The Davidic Kingdom, the OT priesthood, the Catholic Church and all her sacraments have something phenomenal in common: they were all made by God. They are thus eternal and good. It is interesting that you cannot deny the Queenship of our Mother without first positing the dispensationalist notion that the true Kingdom of Heaven is “delayed.” So is Jesus not Lord over all? You see how Marianism works to protect the truth of Christ? I thought that was terribly clever.

Your theology demands that Jesus disrespects His very mother in Heaven, that His Kingdom is on hold, and that gifts from God to man (like the sacraments, the Church, etc) are actually fabrications of fanciful Jewish and Christian imaginations!

Yuck!

If Jesus is real, then He is Lord over all, Mary is his mother, and the Church He made is really really boss (as in cool)!

 

[credo]

It seems to me that I read somewhere that the Virgin Mary wants to be called The Blessed Mother, as she is the Mother of God and the Mother of ALL Christians, be they Catholic or otherwise. I refer to her only as the Blessed Mother and have gotten my wife to do the same.

She only wants to show us her Son and for us to know Him as she knows Him. She is the greatest of all intercessories (sic). Our Lord always listens to his mother.

And the final point, the Son along with the woman (Blessed Mother) will crush the head of the serpent (Devil) at the end of time to ensure victory over evil. Therefore, heaven on Earth!! She has been graced by God and the Son and the Spirit with supernatural powers that can only be dreamed about.
Peace be to you!

credo

 

[Exporter]

arnulf:

I believe what is causing your problem is your choice of words, “pray to Mary”. This is not what we do. Rather, we pray with Mary, and ask Mary to pray for us.

---

I agree. Exactly correct. We are always pointed to Jesus when Mary is involved.

I ask Mary to ask her Son, Jesus for my petitions. Don’t you think a Son would listen to His Mother?