Predestination/Calvinism

[Sufjon]

Hey Sufjon Lot of activity on this thread today, huh?

On the topic of free will, I don’t feel that I can uphold a libertarian kind of free will where people have “the ability to do otherwise.” I think that doing so puts me in a position where I would have to deny at least one attribute of God out of two that are non-negotiable for me. I do still want to uphold a certain kind of free will, though, in that God is non-coercive. But many people think that’s internally inconsistent, not really free will when all things are taken into account, etc. I’ll wait to see if anyone wants to address that directly, though.

Those are two issues that I’m a little curious about what others will say, too- first, whether the thing we call “free will” necessitates the “ability to do otherwise,” and second, whether election/predestination or divine determinism (in a sense) normally means God is coercive. (Why-oriented explanations would be great, too). For example, would some people want to say God predestines the elect for heaven, but in a way that is certainly non-coercive or in a way that could be described as coercive? Or what about double-predestination? Do you assume divine coercion if you hate it, or would you hate it even if it wasn’t? What about those who are more accepting of it?

More on the topic of the things you brought up, Sufjon, I think you’re asking excellent questions. I’ve asked very similar questions in the past, and I’ve talked to a number of Christians that have worked through similar things, too. I hope that a little exploration into these kinds of topics is something that you can enjoy to a certain extent, and I sincerely hope you don’t get frustrated with us. If there’s anything I can do that would help you, let me know and I’ll do what I can. I’m taking a little bit of a guess, but I’m hoping that the topic of coercion will be of some help. Let me know what you think.

Hi Cooterhein: I always appreciate your patience and well thought replies. You asked an excellent question: Which condition would I hate the most? That’s where the introspection gets tough. I think I would resent either option if I believed in a permanent hell, but in my faith, that is only a state of being we create, from which we must extricate ourselves. We believe that eventually everyone makes it after our journeys. God takes on human form from time to time (as with Jesus) to tell us how to find Him. It seems we usually miss the point. As for free will, it looks like that is a bit more complicated of a term than we bargained for. The physics of the past 80 years or so suggest that we might create reality as we go, but from the start, the outcomes might be set. Those two ideas seem at odds with one another at first glance. Anyway, if we were to find a unified theory of creation it seems we would find that the condition of the cosmos at the end of this cycle or permutation of it is set from the start. The conditions present at the start are also determined because of the conditions present at the end. I don’t know how much free will we have, but I think very little. It may be an illusion created by the “stubbornly persistent illusion of time”, as Einstein called it.

Thanks as usual Cooterhein - I enjoy your conversations.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[jericho777]

Hey Sufjon Lot of activity on this thread today, huh?

On the topic of free will, I don’t feel that I can uphold a libertarian kind of free will where people have “the ability to do otherwise.” I think that doing so puts me in a position where I would have to deny at least one attribute of God out of two that are non-negotiable for me. I do still want to uphold a certain kind of free will, though, in that God is non-coercive. But many people think that’s internally inconsistent, not really free will when all things are taken into account, etc. I’ll wait to see if anyone wants to address that directly, though.

Those are two issues that I’m a little curious about what others will say, too- first, whether the thing we call “free will” necessitates the “ability to do otherwise,” and second, whether election/predestination or divine determinism (in a sense) normally means God is coercive. (Why-oriented explanations would be great, too). For example, would some people want to say God predestines the elect for heaven, but in a way that is certainly non-coercive or in a way that could be described as coercive? Or what about double-predestination? Do you assume divine coercion if you hate it, or would you hate it even if it wasn’t? What about those who are more accepting of it?

More on the topic of the things you brought up, Sufjon, I think you’re asking excellent questions. I’ve asked very similar questions in the past, and I’ve talked to a number of Christians that have worked through similar things, too. I hope that a little exploration into these kinds of topics is something that you can enjoy to a certain extent, and I sincerely hope you don’t get frustrated with us. If there’s anything I can do that would help you, let me know and I’ll do what I can. I’m taking a little bit of a guess, but I’m hoping that the topic of coercion will be of some help. Let me know what you think.

Hi cooterhein,

We really don’t have true freewill. Our free will is tempered by the sovereign will and purpose of God. Let me explain, if you had the ability to destroy the world and were actively perusing that end God will not let you do it if it goes against His sovereign will or purpose. He protects us all the time from other people trying to do us harm thereby keeping them from exercising their freewill. Does this make sense to you? The scriptures are replete with instances of this. Also look at Pharaoh Rom 9:17 and Gog Ezekiel 38:4. They will do Gods will. For who resists his will?”

 

[cooterhein]

Hi cooterhein,

We really don’t have true freewill. Our free will is tempered by the sovereign will and purpose of God. Let me explain, if you had the ability to destroy the world and were actively perusing that end God will not let you do it if it goes against His sovereign will or purpose. He protects us all the time from other people trying to do us harm thereby keeping them from exercising their freewill. Does this make sense to you? The scriptures are replete with instances of this. Also look at Pharaoh Rom 9:17 and Gog Ezekiel 38:4. They will do Gods will. For who resists his will?”

Do we have free will in some sense, albeit not libertarian free will? I know you’re not a LFW person (and neither am I), but are you more of a compatibilist or a hard determinist? If you’re a compatibilist, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on the nature of the free will that we do have.

 

[Cruxis117]

Hi cooterhein,

We really don’t have true freewill. Our free will is tempered by the sovereign will and purpose of God. Let me explain, if you had the ability to destroy the world and were actively perusing that end God will not let you do it if it goes against His sovereign will or purpose. He protects us all the time from other people trying to do us harm thereby keeping them from exercising their freewill. Does this make sense to you? The scriptures are replete with instances of this. Also look at Pharaoh Rom 9:17 and Gog Ezekiel 38:4. They will do Gods will. For who resists his will?”

I must ask, if God is always protecting the ‘elect’ from the free will of others, as well as from (I’d assume) Satan if they are to be the chosen, predestined for heaven, then I must ask, why would Peter warn the believers, who are supposedly protected from going to hell (being predestined), to beware Satan? (1 Peter 5:8). It sounds too redundant.
And what of Deuteronomy 30:11-20?

[BIBLEDRB]Deuteronomy 30:11-20[/BIBLEDRB]

Why would there be a statement to choose life, if there is already those predestined to go to heaven, and cannot resist God’s will? What gives?

And what of Jeremiah 18:7-10?
[BIBLEDRB]Jeremiah 18:7-10[/BIBLEDRB]

In Matthew 19:17-22, Jesus tells the Rich Young Man that he must give away all he had in order to follow him and have treasure in heaven. Yet the Rich Young Man would not. He chose to not do so. How is it that this man was able to resist the will of God? Christ himself told the man what he must do in order to achieve perfection. Yet the man wouldn’t. These verses clearly express that predestination to the degree of all people already having their fate decided by God is impossible, if there are so many different calls to choose life and to be perfect, as well as the fact that those who are predestined to heaven wouldn’t need to beware the devil, as stated above.

 

[cooterhein]

Hi Cooterhein: I always appreciate your patience and well thought replies. You asked an excellent question: Which condition would I hate the most? That’s where the introspection gets tough. I think I would resent either option if I believed in a permanent hell, but in my faith, that is only a state of being we create, from which we must extricate ourselves. We believe that eventually everyone makes it after our journeys.

Hey, thanks, man. I’m really glad you’re here to share your perspective and explore. I’m afraid I haven’t asked you a whole lot of specific questions in the past, though; can I ask where or what you make it to? Is it also a state that you create, and not really understood as a “place”?

God takes on human form from time to time (as with Jesus) to tell us how to find Him. It seems we usually miss the point.

What other human forms are you referring to? I’m rather ignorant of this. Additionally, when I think of the things Jesus told us about finding God, the first thing that comes to my mind is “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” I’m sure you’ve seen that verse more times than you can count, so I hope you’ll bear with me. In that particular case, what was the point of Jesus’ message, and are there some different references that come to your mind that involve Jesus telling us how to find Him (God)?

As for free will, it looks like that is a bit more complicated of a term than we bargained for. The physics of the past 80 years or so suggest that we might create reality as we go, but from the start, the outcomes might be set.

Are there any physicists that you could point me to? I’m familiar with some of the “free will is an illusion” hard determinist kinds of scientists, but not to the extent that I should be- and I don’t recall reading up on physicists who deal with what you described. That would be good to look at, though.

Those two ideas seem at odds with one another at first glance.

That is exactly what I thought at first. I started to describe it in my own words, then I backed out and went with “what you described.”

Anyway, if we were to find a unified theory of creation it seems we would find that the condition of the cosmos at the end of this cycle or permutation of it is set from the start. The conditions present at the start are also determined because of the conditions present at the end.

I’m only slightly familiar with things like the TOE and the GUT- Theory of Everything and the Grand Unified Theory. Is this kind of like an offshoot of those, or is the unified theory of creation a more formal stand-alone construct that people are working on? Is the work on it largely limited to scientists, or is it something more collaborative? I’m afraid that theory is something else that’s unknown to me. But that’s why it’s good for me that you bring these things up, right?

I don’t know how much free will we have, but I think very little. It may be an illusion created by the “stubbornly persistent illusion of time”, as Einstein called it.

Thanks as usual Cooterhein - I enjoy your conversations.

Thanks, Sufjon, I really enjoy what you bring to discussion, too- both the content, which tends to have at least a little something that’s new for me, and the way you do it. It’s quite good.

If we do have a little bit of free will, how would you describe that free will? In what ways do we exercise freedom, and in what ways is it just an illusion? Also, what’s your pick for the minimum criteria by which it may be called “free will”?

 

[Sufjon]

I’m afraid I haven’t asked you a whole lot of specific questions in the past, though; can I ask where or what you make it to? Is it also a state that you create, and not really understood as a “place”?

Hi Cooterhein: It is hard to explain. Heaven and hell are inside of us and all around us, at least the way we see it. Hell is created within oneself through ignorance of who and what we really are and secondly through want. I believe that all of creation exists within one consciousness - God’s. I think there is no other. No you, no me, just God. Every particle in the universe is part of one huge organism, which is God Himself. He experiences what He made (himself) through the sentient beings He makes, but we are only part of Him. We mistake the interplay between our sense organs and our brains to be consciousness, individuality or a separate being, but that is only awareness of a [articular physical proximity. I think it is an illusion. I believe you can peel this illusion away by practicing hard the methods of self-realization that were taught by God in earlier human incarnations of Himself. That is how I think one reaches a state of heaven right here in this life and thereafter.

What other human forms are you referring to? I’m rather ignorant of this. Additionally, when I think of the things Jesus told us about finding God, the first thing that comes to my mind is “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” I’m sure you’ve seen that verse more times than you can count, so I hope you’ll bear with me. In that particular case, what was the point of Jesus’ message, and are there some different references that come to your mind that involve Jesus telling us how to find Him (God)?

Well, I need to be clear that these are my beliefs, but I think that Jesus is the tenth or eleventh incarnation of God. He is one of the three most important to modern humans. The other two would be Rama and Krishna, although they came some time before Jesus. The things Jesus make perfect sense when you compare them to what Krishna said. It’s just a continuum. When I look at Him or anything in the context or orientation of the Old Testament, well then things start to get a little shaky. Jesus said He was the Alpha and the Omega and the way the truth and the life. He said the same things a thousand years before as Krishna, but then He also gave specific instructions on how to achieve union with him. I think some of those instructions are also stated by Jesus. Other westerners who would share that line of thought would be people like Thoreau, Emerson, Melville, Jung, Huxley and Richard Alpert.
cooterhein;7381052:

Are there any physicists that you could point me to? I’m familiar with some of the “free will is an illusion” hard determinist kinds of scientists, but not to the extent that I should be- and I don’t recall reading up on physicists who deal with what you described. That would be good to look at, though.

tTere have been thousands of experiments in the last 20 years on the interplay between consciousness and quantum physics. Many of the earlier experiments are noted in detail in a book by Amit Goswami, Ph.D, Professor of physical at the Institute of Theoretical Sciences at the University of Oregon. The book is called “The Self Aware Universe.” It explains it all in great detail, and notes a number of these experiments.

I’m only slightly familiar with things like the TOE and the GUT- Theory of Everything and the Grand Unified Theory. Is this kind of like an offshoot of those, or is the unified theory of creation a more formal stand-alone construct that people are working on? Is the work on it largely limited to scientists, or is it something more collaborative? I’m afraid that theory is something else that’s unknown to me. But that’s why it’s good for me that you bring these things up, right?

There is no unified theory yet, but it seems we get closer all the time. New particle accelerators and telescopes are hauling in a lot of information very quickly.

If we do have a little bit of free will, how would you describe that free will? In what ways do we exercise freedom, and in what ways is it just an illusion? Also, what’s your pick for the minimum criteria by which it may be called “free will”?

I think that’s the confusing part Cooterhein. We seem to be creating the realities we experience as we go, but you might recall that I mentioned that I do not believe there are individual consciousnesses. Only one consciousness. One soul, expressed as an infinite many. It is doing all the creating, and*** it ***is us. I think we have mistaken the measuring and experiential devices we temporarily wear as being something with an individual nature. This understanding would bring big meaning to Jesus’ instructions to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Because they ***are ***yourself. It also brings a good deal of meaning to the verse that says “whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, you have also done unto me,” because it is all only He. This bread, that wine, this sparrow, that man, this human family, this universe - all He. That’s an exciting idea I think. although it’s about a 4,000 year old one. It’s all laid out in detail in the Upanishads. Thanks again Cooterhein!

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[benedictus2]

So according to your reasoning God is truly unable to save anyone because a person has to seek and knock on their own. God has to just hope people will just do the right thing so they can be saved.

Well no. That is no what Benidict meant at all.

You obviously do not believe we have free will.

Salvation is a grace but it God created us with free will.

Unless you believe we are all robots.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Cooterhein: I get what you are saying. I am seeing the same problem.

Your friend
Sufjon

There is no problem. The problem arises only because Cooterhein have a lot of wrong assumptions.

 

[benedictus2]

Three simple questions.

Can a person find God on their own?

Can a person initiate a relationship with God?

On your best day what have you done that God should save you?

Grace is definitely God’s action.

But based on the above, how did you come to the conclusion that even before He created you He has already decided that He will cast you to hell?

What sort of a god is that? You answer that question.

 

[benedictus2]

It’s not about me. It’s about Him and what He has done for me.

So what have you done that God should consider you worthy of saving?

Let me put it this way.

How do you understand salvation?

When you say that a person is “saved”, what do you mean by that?

 

[benedictus2]

The tragedy is people who think they can do enough good works so God will consider them worthy of salvation.

You are denying scripture. WE all deserve hell but out of His love and mercy He chooses to save.

Again, that’s because you understand what salvation means.

Explain this: what does salvation consist of ?

 

[benedictus2]

I can do nothing that Christ would consider me worthy of saving. It is solely based on His grace and mercy toward me.

How does Christ save you? What did Christ save your FROM and what is Christ saving you FOR?

 

[benedictus2]

The tragedy is that people think they need to be saved.

Why is it a tragedy?

Another is believing that you deserve hell. The more I am learning about Christianity the sadder it looks.

Then you obviously have not understood Christianity.

Do you understand the interplay between Grace and Free Will? If you don’t how can you say you know about Christianity.

If I thought God was like the thing described in the Old Testament I should think I’d go off and do my own thing and leave the angry jealous God of Abraham to play sadistic games with His little tribe of Israel.

That is only because you misunderstand the OT. The anger and jealousy of God is His passion for our good.

I’m glad He chose them to be “chosen” rather than me. If I were born into a religion like this I would leave home.

Not because it is wrong but because you misunderstand it.

Fortunately, the mind God gave me tells me that the angry jealous God who is at odds with His creations is a construct of people’s minds and not actually a reflection on the God who made me. I know that He is not like this at all. It is sad that so many people are stuck with this view of Him though.

Perhaps you should read some Biblical commentaries before you start judging the OT.

That is if you are serious about learning the truth about Christianity.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi cooterhein,

We really don’t have true freewill. Our free will is tempered by the sovereign will and purpose of God.

If that is so, therefore when we commit sin it is really God making us sin?

Let me explain, if you had the ability to destroy the world and were actively perusing that end God will not let you do it if it goes against His sovereign will or purpose.

So therefore Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot were all doing the will of God?

He protects us all the time from other people trying to do us harm thereby keeping them from exercising their freewill.

What do you say then to those tortured by Hitlet, Stalin and Pol Pot?

Does this make sense to you? The scriptures are replete with instances of this. Also look at Pharaoh Rom 9:17 and Gog Ezekiel 38:4. They will do Gods will. For who resists his will?”

The scriptures are replete with beautiful verses that you twist and mangle.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Cooterhein: It is hard to explain. Heaven and hell are inside of us and all around us, at least the way we see it. Hell is created within oneself through ignorance of who and what we really are and secondly through want. I believe that all of creation exists within one consciousness - God’s. I think there is no other. No you, no me, just God. Every particle in the universe is part of one huge organism, which is God Himself. He experiences what He made (himself) through the sentient beings He makes, but we are only part of Him. We mistake the interplay between our sense organs and our brains to be consciousness, individuality or a separate being, but that is only awareness of a [articular physical proximity. I think it is an illusion. I believe you can peel this illusion away by practicing hard the methods of self-realization that were taught by God in earlier human incarnations of Himself. That is how I think one reaches a state of heaven right here in this life and thereafter.

Well, I need to be clear that these are my beliefs, but I think that Jesus is the tenth or eleventh incarnation of God. He is one of the three most important to modern humans. The other two would be Rama and Krishna, although they came some time before Jesus. The things Jesus make perfect sense when you compare them to what Krishna said. It’s just a continuum. When I look at Him or anything in the context or orientation of the Old Testament, well then things start to get a little shaky. Jesus said He was the Alpha and the Omega and the way the truth and the life. He said the same things a thousand years before as Krishna, but then He also gave specific instructions on how to achieve union with him. I think some of those instructions are also stated by Jesus. Other westerners who would share that line of thought would be people like Thoreau, Emerson, Melville, Jung, Huxley and Richard Alpert.

tTere have been thousands of experiments in the last 20 years on the interplay between consciousness and quantum physics. Many of the earlier experiments are noted in detail in a book by Amit Goswami, Ph.D, Professor of physical at the Institute of Theoretical Sciences at the University of Oregon. The book is called “The Self Aware Universe.” It explains it all in great detail, and notes a number of these experiments.

This is nothing more than New Age hogwash.

And has absolutely nothing to do with Predestination or Calvinism so I think you and cootertine should start a thread on that one because what you are discussing is way off the topic of predestination.
[/quote]

 

[benedictus2]

Well, I need to be clear that these are my beliefs, but I think that Jesus is the tenth or eleventh incarnation of God.

And what do you base that belief on?

 

[Sufjon]

And what do you base that belief on?

Dear Friend Benedictus: I have stated what my beliefs are founded on many times on this thread and others. As far as New Age goes, the scriptures from my faith are thousands of years older than those from your faith tradition, and happen to just match modern science as well, so calling my faith New Age and hogwash sounds a bit silly to me, but do as you like.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[benedictus2]

Dear Friend Benedictus: I have stated what my beliefs are founded on many times on this thread and others. As far as New Age goes, the scriptures from my faith are thousands of years older than those from your faith tradition, and happen to just match modern science as well, so calling my faith New Age and hogwash sounds a bit silly to me, but do as you like.

Your friend
Sufjon

Thousands years older does not make it true.

Its called paganism.

And no, your faith tradition does not match modern science at all. But I am sure you wish it does. Your belief is a mish mash of paganism and PSEUDO science.

What you have written here sounds like something from “What the Bleep Do We Know” and scientist have shown how inaccurate the pseudo science they peddle there.

 

[benedictus2]

Dear Friend Benedictus: I have stated what my beliefs are founded on many times on this thread and others. As far as New Age goes, the scriptures from my faith are thousands of years older than those from your faith tradition, and happen to just match modern science as well, so calling my faith New Age and hogwash sounds a bit silly to me, but do as you like.

Your friend
Sufjon

PS. I also asked you in post 73 why you think it is a tragedy that people think they need to be saved. You have not answered that one.

 

[Sufjon]

Why is it a tragedy?

Because it appears to be an abusive and dysfunctional relationship.

Then you obviously have not understood Christianity.

Well, I am here to learn, and there is no shame in that, so feel free to tell me where I get things wrong.
benedictus2;7381424:

Do you understand the interplay between Grace and Free Will? If you don’t how can you say you know about Christianity.

Okay, tell me about the interplay between grace and free will.

That is only because you misunderstand the OT. The anger and jealousy of God is His passion for our good.

How is that different than the anger and jealousy of a father who goes overboard in disciplining his children? I have two children, and I am not angry or jealous with either of them. How did I fare so much better than God?

Not because it is wrong but because you misunderstand it.

I hope you are right.

Perhaps you should read some Biblical commentaries before you start judging the OT.

It seems the Old testament should be able to stand on it’s own. God should be able to author something and have it make sense to the minds He created should He not? If we don’t, is that our fault too, like all the other things that go wrong in this relationship? I’m being totally serious.

Your friend
Sufjon