Predestination

[mikeledes]

Isaiah 5:1-7

**1Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. **

The vineyard is the House of Israel. God asserts that he did everything possible for His vineyard in order for it to produce righteousness. He even asks, “What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?” The question clearly implies that God did everything His vineyard needed to bear the grapes of righteousness, and yet it did not bear the fruit He wanted. Now we all know that righteous living must be preceded by repentance and repentance must be preceded by grace. For righteous deeds done while one is under the dominion of sin are as “filthy rags.”

Isaiah 64:6

6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;

Isaiah 1:15-17

**15 When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.
16 “ Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
17 Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow. **

So if God did not provide sufficient grace in order for His people to bear fruit in righteousness, than there was something He could have done that he did not do. But the question in verse 4 and the metaphor in verses 2 clearly implies that God did everything needed in order for His people to bear righteous fruit and hence God must have provided sufficient grace. If God did His part, why asn’t this grace efficacious? Another factor must have come into play, the human will. This reminds me of another verse:

Luke 13:34

34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

How can God’s desire expressed in this passage be sincere if He did not provide a genuine opportunity for this to occur? If He knows that man in his natural state can only reject God and hence does not enable him to chose or reject Him, then how can He be sincere when He says He desires not the death of the wicked, but that they repent and live.

As Catholics we believe that both the elect and reprobate receive sufficient grace to chose God. This grace will be effectual in producing repentance and justification in the case of the elect and many of the non-elect. However, only the elect will receive what the Catholic Church calls the gift of final perseverance, which essentially means dying in a state of grace. Reception of this gift depends on God’s sovereign will.

God Bless,
Michael

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Hi Mike,
Not gonna stay on this thread long it gets to frustrating and makes my head hurt, but the answer is NO. God’s predestination does not mean that we cannot make free will choices. God predestines in and through our choices because God is all knowing and all powerful. He knows what we will do because he knows all things. He cannot not know all things. So, whatever you choose to do out of your own free volition is known. But his knowing doesn’t mean you don’t free choose. Hope this helps.

Thanks, Simon!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Pophead]

Hi Mike,
Not gonna stay on this thread long it gets to frustrating and makes my head hurt, but the answer is NO. God’s predestination does not mean that we cannot make free will choices. God predestines in and through our choices because God is all knowing and all powerful. He knows what we will do because he knows all things. He cannot not know all things. So, whatever you choose to do out of your own free volition is known. But his knowing doesn’t mean you don’t free choose. Hope this helps.

myfavoritemartin,

The question ‘Did God cause Adam to sin?’ - was presented in this thread about predestination, but it is what is called a ruse. No proper understanding of the subject can be arrived at without a careful study of the Scriptures, with a very specific attention to the doctrine of God’s will.

As God has revealed His nature to us progressively, from the writings of Moses (explore the episode with Moses and Pharoah to get the context of Paul’s expression in Romans 9, 10 and 11), the prophets, pay special attention to Isaiah, and the many passages that I will bring to this thread gradually to make a firm case for the will of God. Then and then only will one be able to answer difficult questions, that are brushed away with a very light coat of paint. When difficulties come it is amazing how like old Adam and Eve we look for someway to understand the origin of all events in History and those to come.

Take for example:

When Job’s life fell apart…and I suggest you read the story again and get the impact of a life that was literally ripped out from under him, you learn that here is a man who understood the will of God.

His whole world had crumbled to dust, and instead of blaming his wife, who said, ‘Curse God and die" or his children who had been the one’s who by their wanton living had opened the hedge of God’s protective power, he simply said, **"The Lord has given AND the Lord has…TAKEN AWAY…Blessed be the name of the Lord.’ **

We are happy to call the good that happens God’s will, but when bad things happen suddenly it could not have been directly predestined by God…Adam and Eve’s first instinct was to identify each other as the originators of the deception… Interesting that Satan who knew exactly what God was like, did not blame God or Adam or Eve, for having been the gaurding cherub of the Shekinah (glory of God) he knew who the Boss was.

This is only a foretaste. Perhaps you might consider Ephesians 1 verse 11 for starters. The only reason your head hurts is because you are thinking really hard, and do not worry mine hurt for a few years until I learned that there is considerably more to this matter of Predestination, than one realizes. It will change the way you live and bring you to GREAT inner strength, NO MATTER what happens in your life.

Pophead.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

We are happy to call the good that happens God’s will, but when bad things happen suddenly it could not have been directly predestined by God…like Adam and Eve, we look for someone else to blame. Interesting that Satan who knew exactly what God was like, did not blame God, for God is Sovereign down to the last detail.

God is sovereign and has supreme authority over everything** including sin and consequences**. Yet,He does not cause sin,for to do so would violate His righteous and Holy nature.

Sometime God allows sin to run its full course (see Psalms 81:12). In this context.sometimes God permits sin ,so without divine protection,the nation of Israel succumbed to corrupt influences and ultimately was overrun. The Lord could have sheltered them from that outcome,but those very consequences drove the Israelites to repentance,which was His plan.

Sometimes,God will put an immediate halt to sin such as when Abimelech took Abraham’s wife Sarah for himself. The king had been misled by the couple and was unaware that he was about to commit sin. The Lord knew and intervened. (Gen 20:1-6). The Lord’s sovereignty over our life means any temptation or trial must pass through His permissive will. In this way,He makes sure His children are not tempted or tried beyond what they can bear or resist (I Cor. 10:13)

I have learned to be very careful not to attribute to Satan that which may be from God ! Note; The unpardonable sin account. Every thing must be examined by Scripture.
Simon

 

[Pophead]

As Catholics we believe that both the elect and reprobate receive sufficient grace to chose God. This grace will be effectual in producing repentance and justification in the case of the elect and many of the non-elect. However, only the elect will receive what the Catholic Church calls the gift of final perseverance, which essentially means dying in a state of grace. Reception of this gift depends on God’s sovereign will.

God Bless,
Michael

Dear Michael,

You do make a most compelling case for your what Catholics believe, and I am going to look very closely at the passages you have presented to motivate for this position.

The matter of arriving a solid understanding of the will of God, is still something that needs to be established, or we will be sampling here and there in an attempt to properly understand what predestination really is.

Sincerely,
Pophead.

ps. Thanks again for the effort. I will present something substantial for you in a day or two. We have finally got our kitchen and toilet back from the renovators and you can guess what I am going to be doing at 7pm. (now time)

 

[Pophead]

God is sovereign and has supreme authority over everything** including sin and consequences**. Yet,He does not cause sin,for to do so would violate His righteous and Holy nature.

Sometime God allows sin to run its full course (see Psalms 81:12). In this context.sometimes God permits sin ,so without divine protection,the nation of Israel succumbed to corrupt influences and ultimately was overrun. The Lord could have sheltered them from that outcome,but those very consequences drove the Israelites to repentance,which was His plan.

Sometimes,God will put an immediate halt to sin such as when Abimelech took Abraham’s wife Sarah for himself. The king had been misled by the couple and was unaware that he was about to commit sin. The Lord knew and intervened. (Gen 20:1-6). The Lord’s sovereignty over our life means any temptation or trial must pass through His permissive will. In this way,He makes sure His children are not tempted or tried beyond what they can bear or resist (I Cor. 10:13)

I have learned to be very careful not to attribute to Satan that which may be from God ! Note; The unpardonable sin account. Every thing must be examined by Scripture.
Simon

There is not doubt that God is visible doing some things and we thereby conclude that is all that He does.

Let us take an example from war.

A fighter plane is a most beautiful thing to watch flying over on a special day when the military has a show. We might even be blessed to see a mock sea manouvre by the Navy seals or some fantastic bombing of neutral targets. No apparent harm is being done to other humans…let’s forget about the plants and animals for now.

When Johnny is amped by his parents to do what must be done to protect our Land; you know patriotic swill that is fed to the young fighter pilots that are going to convince themselves that God is in what they are doing because they are going to protect their country from the enemies that if not checked. No one questions that this is the will of God. Except maybe some crazy hippies from Woodstock days, who think that it is all about love and mercy and goodwill.

On the other side of enemy lines a Mother says to her children who are watching Daddy holding the fractured body of their oldest son, who just happened to be cycling home from school, when the target was reached in the name of Jesus…our might warrior GOD. She consoles them by saying, ‘It was the will of God.’ It does not really take away the pain, for the next day her children are killed in a freak bombing…and her husband discovers her crying beside the bed on her knees and he says to her, ‘It is the will of God.’

On the way back the fighter pilot collides with one of his own planes and dies. He is comes home in a box and the flag is drapped around his body and the people all sing a patriotic hymn, shed many tears and eventually say, ‘He did it for His country and freedom of speech…and maybe, just maybe they say, He was doing the will of God.’

Everyone believes that what they are doing is the will of God. Everyone wants to believe that all they are doing is good, yet we can see that some of it is downright terrible. Yet according to each person it is the will of God.

When rain falls upon the earth, and the sun shines we say it is the will of God. But when the rain forms a big enough puddle to drown the creatures upon the earth, that no one sees, is this not the will of God ?

I do understand our views are different but I will bring a more definite presentation in a day or two.

Pophead.

 

[mikeledes]

God is sovereign and has supreme authority over everything** including sin and consequences**. Yet,He does not cause sin,for to do so would violate His righteous and Holy nature.

Sometime God allows sin to run its full course (see Psalms 81:12). In this context.sometimes God permits sin ,so without divine protection,the nation of Israel succumbed to corrupt influences and ultimately was overrun. The Lord could have sheltered them from that outcome,but those very consequences drove the Israelites to repentance,which was His plan.

Sometimes,God will put an immediate halt to sin such as when Abimelech took Abraham’s wife Sarah for himself. The king had been misled by the couple and was unaware that he was about to commit sin. The Lord knew and intervened. (Gen 20:1-6). The Lord’s sovereignty over our life means any temptation or trial must pass through His permissive will. In this way,He makes sure His children are not tempted or tried beyond what they can bear or resist (I Cor. 10:13)

I didn’t think this would happen, but I guess it had to happen some day…



God Bless,
Michael

 

[tm30]

There is not doubt that God is visible doing some things and we thereby conclude that is all that He does.

Let us take an example from war.

A fighter plane is a most beautiful thing to watch flying over on a special day when the military has a show. We might even be blessed to see a mock sea manouvre by the Navy seals or some fantastic bombing of neutral targets. No apparent harm is being done to other humans…let’s forget about the plants and animals for now.

When Johnny is amped by his parents to do what must be done to protect our Land; you know patriotic swill that is fed to the young fighter pilots that are going to convince themselves that God is in what they are doing because they are going to protect their country from the enemies that if not checked. No one questions that this is the will of God. Except maybe some crazy hippies from Woodstock days, who think that it is all about love and mercy and goodwill.

On the other side of enemy lines a Mother says to her children who are watching Daddy holding the fractured body of their oldest son, who just happened to be cycling home from school, when the target was reached in the name of Jesus…our might warrior GOD. She consoles them by saying, ‘It was the will of God.’ It does not really take away the pain, for the next day her children are killed in a freak bombing…and her husband discovers her crying beside the bed on her knees and he says to her, ‘It is the will of God.’

On the way back the fighter pilot collides with one of his own planes and dies. He is comes home in a box and the flag is drapped around his body and the people all sing a patriotic hymn, shed many tears and eventually say, ‘He did it for His country and freedom of speech…and maybe, just maybe they say, He was doing the will of God.’

Everyone believes that what they are doing is the will of God. Everyone wants to believe that all they are doing is good, yet we can see that some of it is downright terrible. Yet according to each person it is the will of God.

When rain falls upon the earth, and the sun shines we say it is the will of God. But when the rain forms a big enough puddle to drown the creatures upon the earth, that no one sees, is this not the will of God ?

I do understand our views are different but I will bring a more definite presentation in a day or two.

Pophead.

God’s passivity is not an usurpation of our free will. Only in a distorted sense is God “willing” His inactivity to prevent disaster. The right order of God’s “operation” is to either positively intervene, or not. Likewise, the rain that falls for forty days and forty nights is God’s will. The decision not to enter the ark is man’s choice. The outcome (death) is not the positive will of God, but the result of man’s choice. It just so happens that, if more people loved God, more would have been on the ark by their own choice. Noah had the same choice to either listen to God or ignore Him. The outcome was based not on God’s will, but Noah’s response to God’s will.

Therefore, alike to the Great Flood, man’s descent into hell comes not by the will of God, but the choice of man not to enter into the ark. The Flood is not that which destroyed Creation. The Flood is that which baptized the earth and gave Noah the chance to be saved. Those who died were those who did not respond to the opportunity of salvation.

 

[mikeledes]

There is not doubt that God is visible doing some things and we thereby conclude that is all that He does.

Let us take an example from war.

A fighter plane is a most beautiful thing to watch flying over on a special day when the military has a show. We might even be blessed to see a mock sea manouvre by the Navy seals or some fantastic bombing of neutral targets. No apparent harm is being done to other humans…let’s forget about the plants and animals for now.

When Johnny is amped by his parents to do what must be done to protect our Land; you know patriotic swill that is fed to the young fighter pilots that are going to convince themselves that God is in what they are doing because they are going to protect their country from the enemies that if not checked. No one questions that this is the will of God. Except maybe some crazy hippies from Woodstock days, who think that it is all about love and mercy and goodwill.

On the other side of enemy lines a Mother says to her children who are watching Daddy holding the fractured body of their oldest son, who just happened to be cycling home from school, when the target was reached in the name of Jesus…our might warrior GOD. She consoles them by saying, ‘It was the will of God.’ It does not really take away the pain, for the next day her children are killed in a freak bombing…and her husband discovers her crying beside the bed on her knees and he says to her, ‘It is the will of God.’

On the way back the fighter pilot collides with one of his own planes and dies. He is comes home in a box and the flag is drapped around his body and the people all sing a patriotic hymn, shed many tears and eventually say, ‘He did it for His country and freedom of speech…and maybe, just maybe they say, He was doing the will of God.’

Everyone believes that what they are doing is the will of God. Everyone wants to believe that all they are doing is good, yet we can see that some of it is downright terrible. Yet according to each person it is the will of God.

When rain falls upon the earth, and the sun shines we say it is the will of God. But when the rain forms a big enough puddle to drown the creatures upon the earth, that no one sees, is this not the will of God ?

I do understand our views are different but I will bring a more definite presentation in a day or two.

Pophead.

Are you saying that God is the cause of sin?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Dear Michael,

You do make a most compelling case for your what Catholics believe, and I am going to look very closely at the passages you have presented to motivate for this position.

The matter of arriving a solid understanding of the will of God, is still something that needs to be established, or we will be sampling here and there in an attempt to properly understand what predestination really is.

Sincerely,
Pophead.

ps. Thanks again for the effort. I will present something substantial for you in a day or two. We have finally got our kitchen and toilet back from the renovators and you can guess what I am going to be doing at 7pm. (now time)

As I’ve stated before, the following three beliefs are held by all Catholic theologians on predestination:

**(1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. **

Those predestined to glory (the elect) will infallibly receive the gift of final perseverance from God. This gift cannot be merited and thus ultimately depends on the sovereign will of God.

I am looking forward to your discussion on the will of God. I believe that God has an active and a passive will and that He allows evil things to happen for a greater good. I do not believe that God is the cause of sin and that God’s sovereign will precludes man’s free will. I don’t believe its either/or but rather both/and.

I am glad you got your kitchen and toilet back. Those certainly are essentials.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Pophead]

Dear Friends,

Thank-you for granting me the understanding of the Catholic view of Predestination. I know I could have easily read it on the Internet off the numerous Catholic sites but this is far more exciting.

I am going to step back a bit and consider what has been written so far. It is all so interesting! < I do not want to go the way of all flesh, I mean threads…hehehe

Enthusiastically,
Pophead.

ps. In the meantime I have presented a new which was triggerred by the discussion of ‘Spiritual Perfection’…it is ‘Exactly who was Mary?’ < please do not respond to this here…it will deviate the topic and bring down the Mod’s to close it. It is just to interesting to lose…well, I think so. You guys have been simply FANTASTIC.

 

[mgrfin]

In Christ,

Edwin

In the 16th Century Calvin put forward a false view of Predestination, which has become famous. He taught that from all eternity God definitely and explicitly chose some men for eternal life, and just as definitely and explicitly, other men for eternal damnation, his own glory being the end he sought. Nothing that man is going to do affects in any way that terrible decree by which heaven is chosen for some, hell for others.

As a necessary conseqjuence to Calvin’s heretical theory, we must say that God does not will the salvation of all men.

The fundamental error is its denial that God really wills the salvation of only the elect. We believe, and Trent taught, God wills the salvation of all and gives to all sufficient grace to enable them to save their souls; and if some lose their soul, it is due to their own rejection of grace, and not to God’s choice of their damnation.

This is the fundamental truth that must be safeguarded in every theory of Predestination, which a Catholic must hold. We may not say that there is a positive Reprobation of man antecedant to his sin; it is only because of his sin that God wills his condemnation; he has had sufficient grace, he has rejected it, and therefore God condemns him.

We have been over this territory once before. I am here to state the Catholic position, not necessary to prove it, except by the teaching Magisterium of the Church.

peace

 

[Pophead]

I am here to state the Catholic position, not necessary to prove it, except by the teaching Magisterium of the Church.

peace

Dear mgrfin,

I appreciate it that you as others on this thread do regularly assert what is the teaching Magisterium of the Church.

I am not a Calvinist and am not presenting the views of Jean Cauvin, only my own ideas as they have been stimulated by the study of the Scriptures and the reasoning powers granted me by Almighty God.

I intend to post one last comment and surrender to John 3:27.

As Scripture reveals a thin line of the progressive historical revelation of the redemptive plan of God, through the Lord Jesus Christ, I am certainly aware that very few have the clearness of mind and heart to understand that God not only revealed by the Holy Scriptures that He both decreed and foreknew all events relative to the Saviour, but also the death of a sparrow.

Where the greatest fear exists is the idea that God sins, which in itself is a great misunderstanding of the way in which God orders and controls all of life.

We get a glimpse of the hand of God in the temptation of Jesus, when Jesus is led of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil and when Jesus at a particular time mounts a donkey to be worshipped by men, the timetable and the determination which Jesus fulfills every last detail, allows us the understanding that nothing - be it the men who blasphemed him, and smote him with their fists, was not clearly prophecied from the counsel of God. The thirty pieces of silver, satan entering Judas to complete his part, these unseen events are what the Scriptures give us light to see, but in only particular events, not to say that all of life is not so beautifull composed, orchestrated and then conducted by the One who controls the mighty waves of the ocean.

I will make my final post within 24 hours and out of respect post no more.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Pophead.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I didn’t think this would happen, but I guess it had to happen some day…



God Bless,
Michael

A first for everything eh? i almost spit out my coffee when I saw your post!

 

[Melchior]

God foreknew (foreloved) and, based on that, predestined!!

Foreknowledge comes first.

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

How can we apply chronology to God’s eternal decree? God’s knows and foreordains from eternity. He is outside of time. All who will be saved are saved because God chose to save them before the foundation of the world. He uses means to achieve that end, but it is illogical to say God predestines based on what He witnesses with some sort of time machine tv. God foreknowing does not come before His electing some to final perseverence. God does not predestine based on knowledge. That would not be predesitination at all. Plus, it gives man to much credit. God predestines where and when we will be born, who our family will be and when we will die. He did not foresee these circumstances. He ordained them, He predestined them. If one is saved in the end it is because God predestined them to be saved from the beginning based on His divine will, not ours. He only uses our will to achieve His un-thwartable ends.

 

[cpayne]

I think saying foreknowledge comes before predestination means it is logically prior, not temporally prior.

 

[Melchior]

Actually - the golden chain of salvation does give a sequence…

**Foreknew…predestined…called…justified…and, finally…glorified. **

The chain cannot be broken…

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

The read Romans 9 to see that St. Paul is only speaking in human terms, from man’s perspective. The next chapter gives the divine context and how we are completely unable to comprehend it. Clearly, in context, St. Paul teaches

Romans 9:11-18

*though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, **“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” ****So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. *For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Plus, he foreknows everyone, but He does predestine everyone to final perseverence.

 

[Axion]

How can we apply chronology to God’s eternal decree? God’s knows and foreordains from eternity. He is outside of time. All who will be saved are saved because God chose to save them before the foundation of the world. He uses means to achieve that end, but it is illogical to say God predestines based on what He witnesses with some sort of time machine tv. God foreknowing does not come before His electing some to final perseverence. God does not predestine based on knowledge. That would not be predesitination at all. Plus, it gives man to much credit. God predestines where and when we will be born, who our family will be and when we will die. He did not foresee these circumstances. He ordained them, He predestined them. If one is saved in the end it is because God predestined them to be saved from the beginning based on His divine will, not ours. He only uses our will to achieve His un-thwartable ends.

This is stating that God must be the author of all sin - which is the Calvinist heresy.

 

[Axion]

I think saying foreknowledge comes before predestination means it is logically prior, not temporally prior.

God is outside time. He bases predestination on something. What is that something? Random cruelty? Or foreknowledge? Clearly foreknowledge

 

[Axion]

Are you saying that God is the cause of sin?

God Bless,
Michael

that is the inescapable logical corrollary of predistenationist theory.