I prefer what the Pope says.
Pachamama.
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Pachamama.
G
goout
Guest
Have you considered that the moral evaluation of idolatry does not have the material object as it’s focus?Vico:
No.
It means he had no idolatrous intentions.
It does NOT mean that this was not a pagan idol.
Morality evaluates human acts. Objects are morally neutral. While the object is improperly used as a focus for worship, the object itself is morally neutral.
If the material object is a cause for continuing immorality, it should be removed, destroyed, etc…as is prudent, and above all in a morally acceptable way.
Stealing the object and throwing it in the Tiber might satisfy the passions and make us want to smack our beer mugs together, but it does not solve the problem in any more than a temporary way.
Theft of another’s property is not justified in pursuit of an end to idolatry.
The longer Catholic chest thumping goes on in an imprudent way, the less our mission of right worship of God is taken seriously.
We all have a responsibility to act in mature faith.
We all have a responsibility to assume good motivation on the part of our pastors.
We also have a responsibility to understand Catholic moral theology before blowing a trumpet.
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Have you considered what exactly pachamama is?
For the moment I will ignore the insult inherent in your response.
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V
Vico
Guest
H.H. Pope Francis said in Italian that they were statue he did not say idoli.Vico:
I prefer what the Pope says.
Pachamama.
Do you think it better that they are paying homage to a statue instead of an idol?
That they are actively worshipping pachamama and then bringing that representation into the Church?
V
Vico
Guest
Worship takes various forms and only one is reserved to god: adoration.Vico:
Do you think it better that they are paying homage to a statue instead of an idol?
That they are actively worshipping pachamama and then bringing that representation into the Church?
The dictionary shows homage as “special honor or respect shown publicly”. It is morally proper to show respect using symbols and the statue is a symbol, such as a flag. We Catholics offer worship called adoration only to God. We often venerate the angels and saints through use of symbols, including statues.
Some people believe that an idol is a god or goddess or represents one, a deity.
Most would believe praying towards, bowing and prostration, and offerings would indicate worship.
I thought we reserved sacrifice and offerings to God alone as well.
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Vico
Guest
Worship as veneration has three principal forms, angels and saints:Vico:
Most would believe praying towards, bowing and prostration, and offerings would indicate worship.
- are honored for their sanctity,
- asked to intercede before God,
- and imitated in their love and service of God.
- recognition of God’s infinite perfection (adoration),
- prayer or the asking for divine help,
- offering of something precious to God.
- 1. expression of high regard: respect
- 2. something that shows respect or attests to the worth or influence of another: tribute
I understand the ceremony they had involved offering.
C
CTBcin
Guest
And all the more concerning when it is brought into the Church.
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Vico
Guest
There was no offering to idols. There were symbols present for the tree planting: fruit, candles, and carved items.Vico:
I understand the ceremony they had involved offering.
Having read the pachamama prayer, I am pretty confident the fruit was an offering.
Here is an English translation of it:
Pachamama of these places,
drink and eat as much as you like of these offerings,
so that this land may be fruitful.
Pachamama, good Mother
Be propitious! Be propitious!
Let the oxen walk well,
and let them not get tired.
Make the seed taste good,
that nothing bad happen to it,
that frost may not disrupt it,
that it produce good food.
We ask you:
give us everything.
Be propitious! Be propitious!
The patron saint of the United States is the Immaculate Conception. If I were to meet the pope in person and present him a statue of the Baphomet and claim it’s the patron of the United States, would it be fair for the pope to accept it and place it in a Catholic church because it was presented as a patron?vz71:
It was not presented as a pagan idol.Vico:
No.
It means he had no idolatrous intentions.
It does NOT mean that this was not a pagan idol.
B
bookshelf
Guest
An idol or statue is of no help in tree planting and reforestation.
If the Pope and the Bishops wanted to plant trees, there are many spaces outside the Vatican that need greening.
Since this meeting was about the Amazon, and the synod gurus were of the mind to plant trees, they should have flown directly to the Amazon, and plant trees to promote reforestation.
O
on_the_hill
Guest
How does this pachamama situation relate to events in Church history where pagan symbols were adopted into acceptable practices?
I can only think of Christmas trees at the moment (which, although my understanding is that they were pagan in origin, I won’t be surprised if someone disabuses me of that understanding).
I can only think of Christmas trees at the moment (which, although my understanding is that they were pagan in origin, I won’t be surprised if someone disabuses me of that understanding).
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B
bookshelf
Guest
Just because a pagan uses wood, stones and water, doesn’t mean a Catholic cannot use wood, stones and water.
A Christmas tree is only a tree. Catholics do not worship it, nor do they pray to it, nor do they ask the tree to intercede with God on their behalf.
H
HarryStotle
Guest
So the early Christians, when they were denied access to the marketplaces in Ephesus, for example – because they would not burn incense to the pantheon of Roman gods or to Artemis, the goddess of the hunt – could have simply and straightforwardly answered: “We Catholics offer worship called adoration only to God. We often venerate the angels and saints through use of symbols, including statues.”vz71:
Worship takes various forms and only one is reserved to god: adoration.Vico:
Do you think it better that they are paying homage to a statue instead of an idol?
That they are actively worshipping pachamama and then bringing that representation into the Church?
The dictionary shows homage as “special honor or respect shown publicly”. It is morally proper to show respect using symbols and the statue is a symbol, such as a flag. We Catholics offer worship called adoration only to God. We often venerate the angels and saints through use of symbols, including statues.
Some people believe that an idol is a god or goddess or represents one, a deity.
Instead of suffering martyrdom, then, they could have just explained their hesitation by carefully distinguishing between worship and veneration, and then burned the incense to Artemis and entered the marketplace with the proviso that they were venerating a cultural icon and not worshiping. I am sure the Ephesians wouldn’t have contended the distinction, and many martyrs would have been spared.
Too bad that you weren’t around back then to clarify terms. It would have spared a great deal of bloodshed and animosity from the pagan Romans. Christianity would have had a place at the table in the Roman Pantheon and Christians would have blended into the larger culture forever changing the course of history. Who knows? The Roman Empire may have gone on for thousands of years with such an amicable relationship in the spirit of accord. Blessed are the peacemakers.
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GiftofMercy
Guest
You say things much better then I can @HarryStotle Harrystotle but state what I enjoy reading. Thank you
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