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dvdjs
Guest
That is very charitable of you in light of the Fr Toth’s life.
Priesthood and celibacy question for my fellow Easterners (and Latin brethren as well 😊)
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
In light of his life? He’s honored as a saint among the Orthodox, and holiness of life is a condition for sanctity among the Orthodox just as much as among the Catholic…
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dvdjs
Guest
Yes, in light of his life, as recounted in post#37.
Apparently in the OCA is OK to that he was “concealing his virtues from others”
As I have noted before, I am happy that there are people who regard Fr Toth as a saint.
It gives hope to many shaleny rusnacki, of whom I am the first,
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Is this actually the custom in the East?
We just had a thread on it and there is no such custom for married Latin Rite priests (who say Mass daily so they would basically be required to abstain from sex with their wives continuously) but we didn’t know the answer for ECs.
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
Do you have a source for this? The Wikipedia article on Fr. Alexis Toth doesn’t say that he came back to the Catholic Church.
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dvdjs
Guest
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
Thank you. It looks like I need to clean my glasses.
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dvdjs
Guest
'ts OK. We all read too fast sometimes.
A good source for this history is Fr. Slivka’s Historical Mirror.
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dochawk
Guest
No, that just goes to how married men were called to priesthood, not whether . . .
Nor to the lack thereof . . .
Assigning probability like this is to reason from your prior conclusion. (as well as being inconsistent with “man of one wife”, and so forth . . .)
“betrayed and ejected” is closer than “quit” . . .
widower. And prior seminary rector.
No. Never.
Married men were ordained, but priests and bishops did not marry.
Past that, though, there is 100% correlation between “what happened” and the speaker’s prior disposition . . .
:crazy_face:
Yes. The use of the spoon to drop the Eucharist into the communicant’s ,pitch was a radical innovation (late 3d century, iirc).A spoon?
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AlNg
Guest
i don’t believe that is true. As mentioned already the Catholic Encyclopedia says " a large number of the clergy, not only priests but bishops, openly took wives and begot children to whom they transmitted their benefices ,"
There is a more recent example of a Catholic priest in India who left the Catholic priesthood and then got married. After that he was accepted as a priest in the Orthodox church even though he had married after his Catholic priestly ordination.
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dochawk
Guest
There are modern cases of the ROC accepting RC priests, recognizing their ordination, yet permitting them to marry as they were “wrongfully denied” their opportunity to marry before ordination. [note the historically, the ROC would not ordain single men outside of the monastery. I’m not sure of the current standard for them]
I’d note that even if, after going through the grammar/translation into English, the accounts of marriage are correct, that doesn’t mean the the marriages were licit or permitted . . . there are also reports of priests purchasing “licenses” to take concubines after the imposition of celibacy in the west . . .
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dvdjs
Guest
How => as celibates.
He was not ejected. But, sadly, he did betray the Catholic Church.
He taught Church history and Canon Law at the Presov seminary, I have seen no biography that saws he was a the Seminary rector.
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OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
Sure, but Orthodoxy clearly sees it as veneration for casting down false union and leading people away from Catholic Church (kontakion, stichera). So reasons for veneration are different for Catholics… hopefully.
Though there was a certain Cardinal who fought for Latin traditions in Constantinople… called Humbert. While he fought for Western traditions, he isn’t venerated because his acts spread disunity. For me, Alexis Toth is similar case. Of course, others are free to do as they like.
Why would his kontakion and stichera says such things then? Smh
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ziapueblo
Guest
Yes, because he stood up for Eastern practice.
I would put St Josaphat Kuntsevych in that category. The tactics he employed, in my opinion, were extremely distasteful, but that was the time in which he lived and some on the Orthodox side were not any better.
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AlNg
Guest
What happens in case of reunion? Will each side have to accept the saints of the other? Seems like this could be another barrier to reunion.
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ziapueblo
Guest
I think that St Josaphat and St Alexis Toth were doing what they did because they thought it was right and out of love for the Church.
To quote a friend of mine:
“I’m sure English Catholics don’t feel to happy about Joan of Arc, either. I don’t, and I’m not even English. Throughout history, the Church, both Orthodox and Catholic, has at times chosen to venerate persons who, in various aspects of their lives, do not appear to have lived a life in Christ in all piety and dignity. In such cases, what else can we do besides leave the final judgment up to God himself? No one is obligated to venerate any saint. For that matter, no one can stop anyone from venerating a saint in the privacy of his own domestic church and in his own heart.”
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To quote a friend of mine:
“I’m sure English Catholics don’t feel to happy about Joan of Arc, either. I don’t, and I’m not even English. Throughout history, the Church, both Orthodox and Catholic, has at times chosen to venerate persons who, in various aspects of their lives, do not appear to have lived a life in Christ in all piety and dignity. In such cases, what else can we do besides leave the final judgment up to God himself? No one is obligated to venerate any saint. For that matter, no one can stop anyone from venerating a saint in the privacy of his own domestic church and in his own heart.”
ZP
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dvdjs
Guest
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dvdjs
Guest
IMO, that impression is not really consistent with the actual history of Fr. Toth’s life and mission. IMO, his actions, from his encounter with Ireland - even taking his own account at face value - and to his campaign against Greek Catholic parishes - is not the stuff of glory.
Many stories that have been developed about the files of men like Toth, Kuntsevych, and Humbertus, One might ask: have the narratives repeated over and over been subject to solid historical research? Are they true? To what degree are the exaggerated and selective to make polemical arguments? I think that one shoud be cautious about buying into the narratives, let alone repeating them.
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
I’m sorry but there’s no comparison.
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ziapueblo
Guest
Many saints have blood on their hands. I have no need to see the saints of having lives spotless lives in this world. The Church in her judgement has determined these people are deserving of veneration, and it is their intention, as much as their thoughts, words and deeds, that count in their favor.
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ZP
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