Pro Choice/Abortion “Catholics”

[Annie]

We once chose as a society to have racial segregation. We once chose as a society to allow only men to vote. And so on.

How were these choices changed? By the perseverance of people who disagreed with them. People who thought that segregation was the wrong decision for our society fought until that was changed. People who thought that preventing women from voting was wrong fought against it until it was changed.

And now people who think our society is wrong to allow people to kill very young humans simply because they are very young are fighting to change it.

 

[Annie]

“The science is settled” only works with climate change. With abortion, the law is settled.

Ain’t life grand? Sometimes we can use science to help overturn or promulgate laws, but on other issues, the law is written in stone.

 

[Sbee0]

No I think the quotes are appropriate and not only will they stay in the title of this topic but I’ll continue to refer to these people in this way.

As they speak about “their” Catholicism - most likely as a ploy to get votes - while also promoting something the Church calls a moral evil.

 

[Sbee0]

Sbee0:

There is a parallel between a rape victim being pregnant and a sailor finding a stowaway. Is it justified that a sailor throws the stowaway overboard because it’s “unfair” they were put in this position?

Sbee0, I’ve never heard this one before. If it should happen that you read about it somewhere, I’d love the reference so I could read up more on this line of reasoning and how to employ it. If it is your own contribution to the internet, well, that is super too!

I did read an article with this as an example of where we have a moral obligation to help others and it is definitely applicable in this topic. I will try to find it.

 

[LateCatholic]

Perhaps you should research facts instead of just listening to liberal talking points. None of these are accurate.

Perhaps we both should. Consider that prior to ObamaCare, women that had miscarriages could be denied health insurance. Pro-life indeed.
And I’m sure all those babies and children taken from their mothers at the border was ‘fake news’.
Oh, and this:

Trump in 2004: Pregnancy Is an 'Inconvenience' to Employers

 

[Convert3]

The children being separated from parents who had entered the country illegally and were put in jail, is nothing new. It happened during the Obama years too. Many of the images published were fake. One in particular that went viral had the father of the child telling news sources that his child was never separated from the child. Others showed terrible conditions for those that were separated, which again was fake. The kids were kept in clean housing with everything they needed. Trump also signed an executive order stopping the separation. Why is that not mentioned in your argument?
Health care is a mess. Costs have skyrocketed since 1965 and the beginning of Medicare. Since Obamacare, premiums, deductibles, copays and coinsurance costs have skyrocketed so that people may have insurance, but can’t afford the costs of care, so they don’t see their health care providers soon enough. Many providers chose not to accept Obamacare. Many providers pulled out of markets, including mine. The cheapest plan in my area is about $22,000/year just in premiums. Deductible is $6500 each, for two of us $13,000, with copays and coinsurance on top of that. Government intervention makes costs rise. I won’t argue about it being bad before, but Obamacare really didn’t make things better.
Peace

 

[goout]

goout:

Nonsense. The very argument here is about what we will choose and allow as a society.

Yes. And for the most part, we have chosen a woman’s right to choose.

This is your assertion that I was responding to:

the pro-choice people I know don’t care what pro-life people choose for themselves.

If you didn’t care what others choose, you wouldn’t be here worrying about what pro life people think and choose. The assertion that pro choice people are not rabidly dogmatic about their beliefs is nonsense.
Pro life people want to protect human life as a priority to “choice”, pro choice people subject human life to individual choices. You protest for individual choice, tell people who disagree with you they are wrong, and codify the exaltation of individual choice into law .

If human life is subject to choice, then you must accept slavery, genocide, environmental pollution, and any other evil that someone chooses, because you value “choice” above objective goods.
The fact that your values are not well integrated should cause you to think. That’s a good thing.

 

[AdamP88]

Does even just having pro choice views also incur excommunication?

If they publicly promote abortion, then yes, I think so.

During Ireland’s recent referendum there were a multitude of “Catholics” who stated their opposition to Church teaching and intention to vote for abortion. I believe that is enough to incur excommunication.

 

[AdamP88]

Yes. And for the most part, we have chosen a woman’s right to choose.

Yeah. A woman’s “right” to choose to dismember her unborn child. What a great society we are!

 

[mVitus]

Sbee0:

Does even just having pro choice views also incur excommunication?

If they publicly promote abortion, then yes, I think so.

During Ireland’s recent referendum there were a multitude of “Catholics” who stated their opposition to Church teaching and intention to vote for abortion. I believe that is enough to incur excommunication.

A useful response from the beginning of the thread.

The Canon you refer to says that only those who “procure a completed abortion” can incur a latae sententiae excommunication. This is interpreted strictly, since a penalty is being levied. Therefore, the only people who incur this penalty are the mother, the doctor, and the person who paid for the procedure. And these three only incur the penalty if they meet the other conditions: they had to be aware of the penalty, and they had to freely perform the act in spite of knowing this.

So it isn’t “anyone who’s involved,” and it certainly isn’t politicians who speak up in favor of abortion or even vote for it who incur such a penalty. The law allows that those cases could be sanctioned by declared penalties. It really wouldn’t be necessary or helpful to make those other classes of people subject to an automatic penalty. You’d have to care that you’d be penalized in the first place.

-Fr ACEGC

 

[IWantGod]

Does even just having pro choice views also incur excommunication? I do not have such views but I know “Catholics” who do, and of course there are many Catholic (mostly Democrat but some Republican) politicians who do as well. Can they really call themselves Catholic?

It’s a complex situation.

First of all i don’t believe that voting for a party that calls itself pro-choice automatically means that you are voting for abortion rights. In fact, unless it can be proven that your vote is the cause of pro-choice laws or that such laws cannot be changed because of your vote, nobody can reasonably claim that your vote is immoral or anti-Catholic.

My view is that in any secular system, abortion rights are inevitable because women have a right to privacy. But even if your political system was essentially Christian, there would still be a political tension between the right to life in regards to the unborn and the right to privacy and dignity of women.

The problem is, if the unborn has an unconditional legal right to live (and i believe they have an unconditional moral right to live) to such an extent that it supersedes a mothers right to make her own decisions, then that would mean that the state would have a duty to interfere in peoples private matters and also it would mean that state would have a duty to imprison and force women to full term that are suspected of the intent of terminating their pregnancy.

Not only would this be impractical, i think this would be immoral even if it’s to save the unborn child.

So it’s difficult to see how the problem of abortion can be solved politically. I guess that’s why some Catholics feel compelled by their conscience to be pro-choice. Me personally i think abortion is the same thing as killing a person, thus either way it’s an immoral act in my eyes; a mortal sin.

 

[AdamP88]

So it isn’t “anyone who’s involved,” and it certainly isn’t politicians who speak up in favor of abortion or even vote for it who incur such a penalty. The law allows that those cases could be sanctioned by declared penalties. It really wouldn’t be necessary or helpful to make those other classes of people subject to an automatic penalty. You’d have to care that you’d be penalized in the first place.

Problem is, Some people who do care never get a penalty. My local politician who I supported changed his views at the last minute and he’s still reading at mass and taking part in church events despite his pro-abortion views.

Also, I think it’s more serious to vote for abortion in a country that actually had a law specifically protecting the unborn, than to vote for a pro-choice candidate in a place where abortion is common.

Those who voted in the Irish referendum are directly responsible for a ushering in regime that will kill thousands of unborn babies for pure convenience. And for the change in society and attitudes that will take place because of this.

I think there should be penalties for those “Catholics” that voted for this.

 

[goout]

I know having or being involved in any way with an abortion is an automatic latae sententae excommunication for Catholics.

Does even just having pro choice views also incur excommunication? I do not have such views but I know “Catholics” who do, and of course there are many Catholic (mostly Democrat but some Republican) politicians who do as well. Can they really call themselves Catholic?

It should be noted that terms like “heresy” and “excommunication” are legal terms, and they should be used by those with the competence and authority to do so. In fact, they have no real binding meaning when thrown around in conjecture.
People can claim whatever they want about a person’s status in the Church, but it doesn’t serve much purpose.

None of this detracts from our mission to proclaim the morality of these issues of course.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Problem is, Some people who do care never get a penalty.

We do not know what has gone on behind the scenes. Thank heavens, for most of us the pastoral discussions we have are not made public. If we barred sinners from volunteering with the parish it would be difficult to get anything done.

 

[CilladeRoma]

You do not get to choose who identifies as “Catholic”.

Anyone who has been baptized into the Church is Catholic.
Whether or not they are a Catholic in good standing is for their priest/confessor to decide.

 

[mVitus]

For people reading that post, I want to clarify the quoted words came from Fr. ACEGC, not me.

 

[Padres1969]

Not a very Christian attitude. Who are you to make that determination?

 

[notforgotten]

Ultimately, who makes the choice?..the man, woman or both? Considering that abortion is a sin, who does the sin fall upon?

 

[gcshapero]

That’s actually a good question.

Just so I understand, the example is someone who is a Catholic, believes in the Catholic faith, adheres to it, however has a personal pro-abortion belief though does not vote in favor of it or promote it – is this the scenario?

This could be a temptation the guy is dealing with, though has not submitted to it.

If you took someone on the opposite end, like Vice President Joe Biden for example who is a baptized Catholics and says he is pro-life but works in favor to promote abortion and says he won’t impose his pro-life position, this is actually worse, because he is claiming to know the truth but rejecting it anyway. Where as the other guy does personally believe in abortion (which is wrong) but chooses to stay by Church teaching.

It would be a good idea for the guy to learn and grow and overcome the temptation to support abortion, but that is far better than actually being actively pro-abortion.

Better “I am personally pro-choice but will continue to support the pro-life effort” and “I am personally pro-life but won’t stop someone from killing her child.”

 

[Annie]

My view is that in any secular system, abortion rights are inevitable because women have a right to privacy.

What does this mean?

Currently, if I were to tell a doctor that I was planning to kill someone, he would be mandated to tell someone. So much for the right to privacy, eh?

The right to privacy, like the right to free speech, has to have some boundaries.