Pro Choice/Abortion “Catholics”

[goout]

goout:

Not sure what point you are addressing. Of course, God is love. What does that love look like when innocent life is at stake?
Is God’s love silent in the face of injustice? Is mercy only for the powerful?

The point is, some wars can only be fought with a specific kind of weapon. If you walk into a room full of delusional people and start enforcing rules and crying out that laws ought to reflect God’s rule, it will be unlikely that you will garner much support and they will rebel against you. In their eyes you will be the tyrant, the evil one even though you’re the one in the right. But if you show them what love is, and inspire love in their hearts, there is an opportunity for God to work in them and change them. It’s not easy, but i just don’t think that using the weapons of the system will get us very far in convincing people that abortion is the same thing as killing a living breathing human with a personal soul. Until they are convinced of this, the law will not change.

Right, well pointing out the science of the thing is very helpful.
A conceived child is a unique individual of the human species, so…that should be convincing.

Back to the privacy assertion: no one has the right to take innocent life under the guise of a right to privacy. I’m not allowed to kill a Frenchman because I have a “right to privacy”. I’m not allowed to lynch a black man in my backyard because I have a “right to privacy”. We recognize the value of those human lives.
Abortion merely denies what is self evident, and uses “privacy” to hide it’s vacant logic.

 

[QwertyGirl]

you didn’t care what others choose, you wouldn’t be here worrying about what pro life people think and choose. The assertion that pro choice people are not rabidly dogmatic about their beliefs is nonsense.
Pro life people want to protect human life as a priority to “choice”, pro choice people subject human life to individual choices. You protest for individual choice, tell people who disagree with you they are wrong, and codify the exaltation of individual choice into law .

If human life is subject to choice, then you must accept slavery, genocide, environmental pollution, and any other evil that someone chooses, because you value “choice” above objective goods.
The fact that your values are not well integrated should cause you to think. That’s a good thing.

I don’t know why you are arguing with me. I made two statements, both true. First is that pro-life people don’t want women to have the choice to terminate their pregnancies. The second statement is that, as a society (speaking of in the U.S.), the choice has been made to allow woman to make the choice of whether they terminate or keep a pregnancy (the majority of people in the U.S. approve of a woman’s right to choose).

You seem to want to argue with me about how we got to this point. I am not interested in arguing about it with you, quite frankly. I don’t argue about the right or wrong of this issue, especially on a Catholic forum. That would be a little silly, wouldn’t it?

 

[Elf01]

There are many good pro life arguments that are slam dunk and convincing. Calling people heretics is not one of them.

I don’t think it’s meant to be a pro life argument so much as wondering if pro abortion politicians could be excommunicated on the grounds of publicly promoting heretical beliefs.

 

[Padres1969]

Doesn’t mean they’re not Catholic however… not according to your mother church.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Makes me wonder, aside from Facebook or other social media/internet discussions, how many posters here have had actual conversations with pro-choice Catholics? Real, meaningful conversations (not name calling red faced shouting matches).

In every conversation I have had with a pro-choice Catholic the other person does not just get all gung ho giddy that there are abortions and think abortions should be available for any reason at a kiosk in the mall. They all have some limits that they want to see in place. When you weigh those limits against the loopholes that the people on the other side of the aisle have accepted, there is not much space between them.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

Didn’t Ireland have parties celebrating having the right to abortion?

 

[TheLittleLady]

Most political action groups celebrate wins. That is not want I am talking about, I am talking about individuals. The people who sit in the next pew.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

That’s not really a discussion people have before Mass.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Again, you know that is not what I mean. I am talking about having honest, thoughtful conversations with Catholics who call themselves “pro choice”.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

I haven’t met anyone like that in my parish or anywhere.

 

[TULIPed]

(I think it’s called an ad hominem attack, no? See - Protestants can use Latin! )

 

[Padres1969]

Incorrect. They’ve not separated themselves, nor can they even as heretics. At least not from the Catholic POV.

I say that as someone who actually believes contrary to that.

 

[deMontfort]

You and the people you’re engaging are talking past each other, primarily because you aren’t speaking the same language. My read is you’re talking the language of pre-Vatican II, and they’re seeing things from a post-Vatican II perspective.

 

[upant]

The above reference is not meant to justify abortions, it is to show Democratic policies are more effective for reducing abortions.

except it didn’t. it deals with late-term. why didn’t they sacrifice the child earlier?

are you advocating child sacrifice right up until birth? why not up until the age a kid can be on its own.

The solution is to make unwanted pregnancies into ‘wanted’ pregnancies.

the solution is to follow the church’s teachings

But despite the 98% approval rate for birth control in the USA, Catholics leadership refuses to step into the modern age.

i believe this was a targeted poll, besides the church isn’t a democracy

They don’t care about the health of viability of the baby or other.

nonsense, they have a different approach to the solution. money hasn’t been the answer, it just destroyed the family.

Democrats (and I’m NOT a Democrat) are the only party that promotes policies that not only PREVENT unwanted pregnancies but also convert unwanted pregnancies into “wanted” pregnancies.

sacrificing a child isn’t a policy that can be justified by other policies.

In fact, I am STUNNED that a Catholic would even argue with me

i’m stunned any catholic can argue for child sacrifice in any way

Since when are Catholics against health care? Since when are Catholics against helping the poor? I don’t get it. I think you are all being tricked by the Republicans. They just want your votes, and then they do everything they can to get richer.

since when is the failed policy of throwing money at problems the only acceptable answer?

We once chose as a society to have racial segregation.

seems like we are going back to this on some college campuses.

If we barred sinners from volunteering with the parish it would be difficult to get anything done.

sinners and those causing current scandal are 2 different things

The facts is that you CANNOT have a free society if you force/control a woman’s body. Period.

we don’t have a free society for a number of reasons. we may have the freest society available but it is not really free. the group is forcing its will on the rest of us in a variety of ways. it doesn’t matter which group is in charge.

 

[JackMcCoy]

I see most Republican politicians as pro-hypocrites. The spout anti-abortion rhetoric to gain votes, but do nothing once in office.
They currently control the House, Senate and the White House, yet the highlight of their accomplishments is a tax break for the wealthy, who do not need tax relief. They did try to undo health care, but were unsuccessful.
Where’s their bill to outlaw abortion? Nowhere. They use Christians to stay in office. That is their bottom line!

 

[LateCatholic]

Being pro abortion rights is also completely incompatible with Catholic teaching.

I understand that. I was raised Catholic. But I literally disagree with almost ALL Catholic institutional teaching:

• Homosexual rights
• Birth control
• Right to choose (within limits)
• Equality of women
• Importance of the environment
• Financial support of the poor
• Freedom of religion
• Freedom of speech
• Empathy for animals
• Non-violence
• Stem cells
• Non-inheritance of sin and guilt
• Death penalty
• Importance and accuracy of science
• municipal independence
• Historical accuracy

I mean, there is literally nothing I have found that agree with regarding the institutional beliefs and dogma of the Church. Note that this is NOT the same as what you will hear outwardly or of course what Jesus says. I’m talking institutionally, dogmatically, and theologically.

 

[LateCatholic]

Pro choice is not pro genocide. Pro choice is not pro lynching. Pro choice is not pro child slavery.
Yes there are people who believe killing inferior human beings is the right decision. Because “we can’t afford them we don’t want them they are a burden.”
Yes there are people who believe lynching inferior races is the right decision.
Yes there are people who believe child slavery is the right decision.

Why are you making this false equivalence? Every point you make refers to another human being.
This all comes down to when you think a fetus is viable and deserves independence in terms of human rights.

Catholic believe that life begins at conception and that the fetus should be treated as a human life at that point.

I believe that in a free society, you must give women the right to control their bodies up to a certain point. Then that fetus is an independent human being and MUST be treated as a human being. I don’t support abortion rights past a certain point. And personally, I would never recommend an abortion at any point.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

The reasoning makes sense, but they have to take into account the mark that Baptism leaves in the soul.
I’m pretty sure it is also not official.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

The fetus isn’t a part of their body and there is an obvious distinction between the two.

 

[LateCatholic]

are you advocating child sacrifice right up until birth? why not up until the age a kid can be on its own.

At about 18 weeks pregnant I don’t see how any pro-choice arguments can continue to be made. Maybe sooner.

the solution is to follow the church’s teachings

The Church’s teaching is completely ineffective, immoral, and in many cases, evil. Consider how the spread of AIDS has exploded in Africa where the Church’s teaching against condom usage is considered a key if not primary factor.

i believe this was a targeted poll, besides the church isn’t a democracy

The actual number from pew research is 4% of all people and 8% of Catholics do not think birth control is immoral. Not sure what you mean by ‘targeted’.

besides the church isn’t a democracy

You got that right.

i’m stunned any catholic can argue for child sacrifice in any way

I thunk it is funny to hear this from a Catholic when the Bible is chock full of child sacrifices, torture, and the justified murder of children by God. God directly or indirectly murders 37 million people including children in the Bible.