Proclaiming the bride and not the bridegroom

[guanophore]

Do you still end every prayer with. “in Jesus name”? Is it a song and dance, as you call it?

Just because you don’t understand what we do does not mean it has no meaning. Can you tell me why we Catholics use this greeting? Do you know the history of it?

I can tell you precisely why it was done and when it was first started. If you have no knowledge of something it is best not to comment on it.

Maybe Rocket has personally experienced an emptiness of worship in Catholicism, and he blames the Church for his experience. That happened to me as a youngster. I thought it was the ritual that was empty, but it turned out to be me!

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd_Adam:

For the Christmas season, I will limit my participation to this one thread. :christmastree1:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=405340

 

[zerinus]

Catholics can miss Jesus by proclaiming the Church instead of Christ.

Protestants can miss Jesus by proclaiming the Scriptures instead of Chrst.

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, - John 5:39

Put On the New Self

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Protestants have a much bigger problem than that. They miss Christ by believing and preaching an altogether false gospel.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Maybe Rocket has personally experienced an emptiness of worship in Catholicism, and he blames the Church for his experience. That happened to me as a youngster. I thought it was the ritual that was empty, but it turned out to be me!

I still observe the emptyness when I attend for someones funeral. It is no different today then when I was a youngster or when I returned back to the church after my repentance hoping to find something anew. The words in the prayer “Our Father” had meaning and new worth, but returning to the CC and hearing them mumbled again without heart drove me away.

I hoped to find some that shared my excitement and love for God. But what I found were those practicing those same old heartless rituals that I remembered from my youth. So was I at fault, when I said to myself, how can you offer up those same prayers over and over and over thinking your going to earn favor with God?

 

[guanophore]

I still observe the emptyness when I attend for someones funeral. It is no different today then when I was a youngster or when I returned back to the church after my repentance hoping to find something anew. The words in the prayer “Our Father” had meaning and new worth, but returning to the CC and hearing them mumbled again without heart drove me away.

I hear ya! I also had unspeakable grief when my heart was fanned into flame by the HS, then I attended Mass and could not perceive any flame around me. I looked at the faces, and wondered “where is the passion? Where is the joy of salvation?”. I judged their hearts and found them wanting.

I also allowed my eyes and ears to be the source of my judgement of their spiritual state, and I allowed that to drive me away. It never occurred to me that perhaps God was interested in using me to renew the Church, or to help others fan the flame of their passion for God.

I am not sure what you would expect at a funeral. To me, the loss of a loved one leaves a great feeling of emptiness.

I hoped to find some that shared my excitement and love for God. But what I found were those practicing those same old heartless rituals that I remembered from my youth.

Yes, this was my experience also. It was many years before I realized that I was looking at them, and seeing myself. It was I who had engaged in the “heartless rituals”. I was arrogant, and believed that I could judge the condition of their hearts before God by the volume of the “Amen” in their response.

So was I at fault, when I said to myself, how can you offer up those same prayers over and over and over thinking your going to earn favor with God?

Yes. It is not the offering of repetitive prayer that “earns favor” with God, but faith and humility. The reason that Cornelius’ prayers had merit with God was the attitude of his heart. Retpetive prayer, of itself, does not preclude life giving interaction with God.

 

[guanophore]

Do they still reply “And also with you”. Does it carry any meaning when they say it or is it the same old song and dance you call worship.

It appears you are suffering from a seriously disdainful experience of the Divine Liturgy as well as a deficient understanding of the nature of worship.

The greeting at the opening of the liturgy does not constitute “worship” for those who have receive the faith of the Apostles.

I will agree that participating in it with enthusiasm will better dispose the heart to worship, but in and of itself, it does not constitute.

 

[ccolley2]

I still observe the emptyness when I attend for someones funeral. It is no different today then when I was a youngster or when I returned back to the church after my repentance hoping to find something anew. The words in the prayer “Our Father” had meaning and new worth, but returning to the CC and hearing them mumbled again without heart drove me away.

I hoped to find some that shared my excitement and love for God. But what I found were those practicing those same old heartless rituals that I remembered from my youth. So was I at fault, when I said to myself, how can you offer up those same prayers over and over and over thinking your going to earn favor with God?

I am truly sorry that you have experienced that in the Churches where you attend funerals. However, you have to remember that funerals and weddings are generally when you are going to encounter many lukewarm/marginal Catholics. While there maybe a lack of outwardly manifested zeal, I have found that most Catholics exhibit a quiet, prayerful, zeal…not everyone has to exhibit their zeal outwardly to have zeal for the faith. I am a “hospitality minister”(ie usher) at my parish and I find that if I exhibit friendliness and zeal for the Mass, that it is “contagious”. Perhaps since I am a convert, I don’t have the “history” that some cradle Catholics have with the Church. I do think that we all have to ask ourselves…Are we attending church with the idea that it is a “gimme, gimme” experience?" "Are we involved in our church, or are we waiting for someone else to create things like bible studies and faith formation classes? Are we part of the problem? or part of the solution? Are we attending the wedding feast of the Lamb’s supper? or are we just sleeping through our own wedding???

I am also sorry that you were so badly catechized that you don’t understand the reasons behind what is happening at Mass. If you did…if all Catholics did…then IMO, everyone would want to be Catholic. I remember something that Scott Hahn said once, he said that the first time he went to a Catholic Mass…he was shocked…he said that everything he heard at the Mass had a Biblical reference.

For example: In the liturgy of the Eucharist, the priest says…“From east to west a perfect offering is made…” That is from Malachi 1:11 “…for from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations…” and again, in the Mass, we say, “Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord, God of power and might…heaven and earth are full of your glory, Hosanna in the highest…” a direct quote from the book of Revelation.

As for “heartless rituals”…well, my answer to that is that ritual is as much a part of being human as breathing…all humans have rituals…we get ready for work in the morning, we do specific things in a particular order. A ritual is just a way that you do something. Church rituals come to us via Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. In the Protestant faith, there are rituals…you arrive at Church…then you have coffee and donuts…then you sing songs then you hear the pastor give his sermon…then you pass the collection basket…or whatever…that is ritual. Can it become meaningless? Yes! Is it always meaningless? NO!

OOPS! perhaps I should have started a different thread…sorry for going out on a tangent…I just get tired of hearing that we Catholics “do meaningless repetitive prayer that we think will get us to heaven”…oh, please~
CC
[SIGN]Fallen away Protestant~[/SIGN]

 

[Rocket_Man]

I am also sorry that you were so badly catechized that you don’t understand the reasons behind what is happening at Mass.

I know that guan and others besides you have tried to lay the badly catechized issue on my doorstep. While it may be that I wasn’t catechized as I should have been, I still can’t agree that if I had been throughly catechized things would had been different. I absolutely had no interest in the things of God as I should had after receiving the spiritual rebirth in the sacraments of Catholic baptism and in the laying on the hands in confirmation. I was bent towards sin and loved sin and had no regard for the things of God with or without the instructions.

 

[izoid]

I know that guan and others besides you have tried to lay the badly catechized issue on my doorstep. While it may be that I wasn’t catechized as I should have been, I still can’t agree that if I had been throughly catechized things would had been different. I absolutely had no interest in the things of God as I should had after receiving the spiritual rebirth in the sacraments of Catholic baptism and in the laying on the hands in confirmation. I was bent towards sin and loved sin and had no regard for the things of God with or without the instructions.

The sacraments are not a “magic pill”, that make you behave against your will. The fact that you chose to embrace sin and reject God is all on you and not on anyone, or anything else. I think you have completely missed the point.

 

[Hisalone]

The sacraments are not a “magic pill”, that make you behave against your will. The fact that you chose to embrace sin and reject God is all on you and not on anyone, or anything else. I think you have completely missed the point.

How does Rocketman chose to embrace sin?

 

[izoid]

How does Rocketman chose to embrace sin?

Did you read his quote in my post. He said it, I merely repeated what he already said.

 

[Rocket_Man]

The sacraments are not a “magic pill”, that make you behave against your will. The fact that you chose to embrace sin and reject God is all on you and not on anyone, or anything else. I think you have completely missed the point.

“This sacrament is the door of the Church of Christ and the entrance into a new life. We are reborn from the state of slaves of sin into the freedom of the Sons of God.”

Fact #1, I was not regenerated.

 

[guanophore]

I know that guan and others besides you have tried to lay the badly catechized issue on my doorstep. While it may be that I wasn’t catechized as I should have been, I still can’t agree that if I had been throughly catechized things would had been different. I absolutely had no interest in the things of God as I should had after receiving the spiritual rebirth in the sacraments of Catholic baptism and in the laying on the hands in confirmation. I was bent towards sin and loved sin and had no regard for the things of God with or without the instructions.

It seems that you expected that the sacraments would turn your heart toward God. They are not “magic”, where they do something to people that the recipient does not intend. They are avenues of grace. If they do not meet with faith in the person participating, then salvation cannot be produced. It is not the sacraments that are empty or void, however. People who engage in them that are empty and void practice a form of godliness without the power thereof.

I am glad you came to connect wtih God in a personal and life changing way. One has to wonder what brings you here to CAF.

 

[guanophore]

How does Rocketman chose to embrace sin?

At the time he received the sacraments of initiation, he has testified that his heart was not turned toward God. He had not experienced a regeneration of the heart until apparently later in life. Now, he seems to look back on the sacraments as impotent.

 

[guanophore]

“This sacrament is the door of the Church of Christ and the entrance into a new life. We are reborn from the state of slaves of sin into the freedom of the Sons of God.”

Fact #1, I was not regenerated.

I can understand that it seems that way to you, but God does what He says He will do. When He breathed upon the Apostles in the upper room, He said “receive the Holy Spirit”. They did not feel “regenerated” either, until Pentecost. They received the Spirit when Jesus pronounced it so. They did not have an experiential understanding until later.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I can understand that it seems that way to you, but God does what He says He will do. When He breathed upon the Apostles in the upper room, He said “receive the Holy Spirit”. They did not feel “regenerated” either, until Pentecost. They received the Spirit when Jesus pronounced it so. They did not have an experiential understanding until later.

That sir, is a horrible misdirection of scripture.

 

[guanophore]

That sir, is a horrible misdirection of scripture.

It certainly does not capture the whole story, but why do you think He breathed upon them and told them that? do you think it had any meaning at all, and if so, what was it?