Proof for praying to saints

[sandusky]

I realize your statement is not out of scripture, but this one is;
“Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity greedy, dishonest, adulterous or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” Gospel (Lk 18:9-14).
Do you recognize this verse?
Had you read those responses you state “consist mainly of long lists of verses” that you say you are “not going to waste my time going over them with you”, you might not have written such a deceiving statement.

I have no idea what you’re talking about in your statement above. You never explain anything, but list verses along with questions.

 

[twb1621]

I have no idea what you’re talking about in your statement above. You never explain anything, but list verses along with questions.

Regarding the statement quoted, refer to the quote. I only list verses when you deny any exist. I’ve made statements many of which you could not respond to in this and other threads but you continue being critical of the Catholic Faith claiming you were once Catholic. you also did not respond to this following portion of a question to you;

In regard to these questions you ask, you say you were a practicing Catholic at one time but you question as though you never heard of the Faith. If you have a bone of contention to pick with the Catholic Church, why not raise that issue in a thread and deal with that instead of targeting specific people who you think you can manipulate. You might find an answer to your real issues that you didn’t come up with before. If in fact you are a diverted Catholic (as I said there is no such thing as an ex-Catholic) perhaps you can tell us just what God or His Church did to earn such contempt.I believe many here would be willing to try and help.

 

[cowgirl89]

Hi! sorry i’m jumping on this thread kind of late, but i was just wondering where purgatory came into all of this…i thought that every christian that died had to go to purgatory before they went to heaven…if so, can people still hear you pray to them in purgatory? sorry, i’m in the process of becoming catholic so i don’t really know that much about purgatory and was just curious if that played any part on being able to pray to saints or family members, etc…that have gone before us Thanks!

 

[twb1621]

Hi! sorry i’m jumping on this thread kind of late, but i was just wondering where purgatory came into all of this…i thought that every christian that died had to go to purgatory before they went to heaven…if so, can people still hear you pray to them in purgatory? sorry, i’m in the process of becoming catholic so i don’t really know that much about purgatory and was just curious if that played any part on being able to pray to saints or family members, etc…that have gone before us Thanks!

Purgatory is a place of cleansing of souls after death that have been promised an eternal life in Heaven. It is purification of the soul. In some cases some who for instance have been martyred or lived a very holy and devoted life may not go through such purification but most do. Judgment is just by the Lord and each person’s situation is different.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Regarding the statement quoted, refer to the quote. I only list verses when you deny any exist. I’ve made statements many of which you could not respond to in this and other threads but you continue being critical of the Catholic Faith claiming you were once Catholic. you also did not respond to this following portion of a question to you;

In regard to these questions you ask, you say you were a practicing Catholic at one time but you question as though you never heard of the Faith. If you have a bone of contention to pick with the Catholic Church, why not raise that issue in a thread and deal with that instead of targeting specific people who you think you can manipulate. You might find an answer to your real issues that you didn’t come up with before. If in fact you are a diverted Catholic (as I said there is no such thing as an ex-Catholic) perhaps you can tell us just what God or His Church did to earn such contempt.I believe many here would be willing to try and help.

**

Hi twb,

many times with fallen away Catholics, They didn’t own the religion in the first place. Then something, be it a sin they committed (abortion, homosexual act, divorce, etc) or something else, like a recruiter from a counterfeit church gets to them and tricks them into leaving the real church condemning thei eternal sould to Hell. Since they never were “informed” Catholics, they don’t know our religion. They prove that by their actions. They can claim that all day long. But if they truly did believe in our Church, how could they ever leave Jesus? He is our Lord and Savior. How could they do that? If they were “Catholic” ~ the answer is: They couldn’t!
Think of it ~ Turning your back on GOD! How screwed up do you have to be to do that? They are the very same type of people who would go watch Elvis impersonaters and see no difference from the real Elvis whatsoever! Blinded by the devil and using their Protestant glasses they see Jesus where only the devil resides!

May God have mercy on their souls.**

 

[Peter_J]

I realize your statement is not out of scripture, but this one is;
“Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity greedy, dishonest, adulterous or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” Gospel (Lk 18:9-14).

I only wish that everyone who posts on CAF would read that.

 

[Peter_J]

I only wish that everyone who posts on CAF would read that.

P.S. That’s not to say that other forums are better than CAF. (I don’t want to get into that whole Catholic forums vs. Protestant forums argument.)

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I only wish that everyone who posts on CAF would read that.

**Oh Peter, My Peter, I really wish I could be as justified in my own eyes as you seem to be in yours.

Alas I am but a poor sinner.

I personally like the “Judge not…” verse.

God Bless you!**

 

[twb1621]

**

Hi twb,

many times with fallen away Catholics, They didn’t own the religion in the first place. Then something, be it a sin they committed (abortion, homosexual act, divorce, etc) or something else, like a recruiter from a counterfeit church gets to them and tricks them into leaving the real church condemning thei eternal sould to Hell. Since they never were “informed” Catholics, they don’t know our religion. They prove that by their actions. They can claim that all day long. But if they truly did believe in our Church, how could they ever leave Jesus? He is our Lord and Savior. How could they do that? If they were “Catholic” ~ the answer is: They couldn’t!
Think of it ~ Turning your back on GOD! How screwed up do you have to be to do that? They are the very same type of people who would go watch Elvis impersonaters and see no difference from the real Elvis whatsoever! Blinded by the devil and using their Protestant glasses they see Jesus where only the devil resides!

May God have mercy on their souls.**

It is true that those who are Catholic and leave the Church are usually those who had only a superficial knowledge to begin with. They go to another denomination because it suits their way of thinking or is easier to follow. But as Our Lord said, to those who received more, more is expected of them. The fact is that the statement regarding “those outside the Catholic Church not being able to reach salvation” was primarily directed to those who where in the Catholic Church and left it which does make sense. The CC is the fullness of Christianity. A person who doesn’t know the Catholic Church can not be condemned for sins he or she didn’t know they were committing. But it is each person’s responsibility for the salvation of their own soul to seek the truth. There is no such thing as an ex-catholic.

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[twb1621]

I only wish that everyone who posts on CAF would read that.

Thank you Peter, lets get the word out…

 

[twb1621]

P.S. That’s not to say that other forums are better than CAF. (I don’t want to get into that whole Catholic forums vs. Protestant forums argument.)

Absolutely!

 

[Peter_J]

Oh Peter, My Peter, I really wish I could be as justified in my own eyes as you seem to be in yours.

Um … Whoa.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Um … Whoa.

You did realize that the tax collector worked for the IRS right???

freesmileys.org/smileys/signs045.gif

[SIGN]Dear St. Padre Pio, Pray for me, please, that I may receive the graces I need to deeply participate in the holy sacrifice of the Mass. Please help me to desire humility, simplicity, and the spirit of obedience in my walk of life. Help me to realize the power in suffering united to the will of God. St. Padre Pio, pray for us and all who invoke your aid. If it is in God’s holy will, please grant me a greater love for My Lord and My brothers in Christ. Amen. [/SIGN]

 

[twb1621]

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[Ethan_Enoch]

I am supplying you with verses to respond to your questions because it is what you are ultimately asking. Perhaps you may read them where others ask questions but do not want answers. These are only a few verses that reflect the basis.

Thank you. I think it is a good idea to examine what, if anything Scripture has to say on this subject. Since person-to-person spiritual communication is not something any of us demonstrably experience, the only way we could know that it is real would be if God revealed that to us. Scripture is obviously Divine revelation, so we know that if it’s in the Bible, it’s true.

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

I am a strong believer in the communion of the saints. ‘Communion’, however, does not neccesarily mean ‘communication’. You have spiritual communion with those who are still physically alive, but not spiritual communication. I’ve always thought our communion with each other was only through God. The Eucharist is kind of a picture of this, which is why it is called communion. We are made one body by eating one bread, not because of any communication between ourselves.(1 Cor 10:17)

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

This raises some interesting questions. Were they physically there, or just spiritually? They were visible to the disciples, but so are angels sometimes. Elijah obviously did not die, so perhaps he recieved his spiritual body when he was taken up. Moses did die. It might be his resurrected body, but it seems wrong for anyone to have a resurrected body before Christ. But I digress. At any rate, Jesus is God, so He can have spiritual communication with whomever He wants anytime.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

I agree. It seems to me that the argument you’ve been having with Sandusky about whether the Saints are alive or dead is, if you will forgive me, a little silly. It is obvious that the Saints are spiritually alive, just as it is obvious that they are physically dead.

Don’t all of us agree?

The issue is not whether they are alive or dead. The issue is whether their physical death changes our ability to spiritually communicate with them.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

Angels are mentioned here, but not saints.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

The branches don’t all connect to each other; they connect to the vine.

1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

Yes, but this is true of us on earth as well, including those whom we cannot communicate with.

Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.

This is an interesting interpretation. I’ve always thought that “witnesses” referred not to them witnessing us, but witnessing to us. As in:

“By faith Abel offered to God a sacrifice exceeding that of Cain, by which he obtained a testimony that he was just, God giving testimony to his gifts. And by it he being dead yet speaketh.” Heb. 11:4

Anyway, thanks. I’m not responding to all your verse in the interest of space and time (or should that be space/time?). I’m just thinking about all this.

 

[twb1621]

Thank you. I think it is a good idea to examine what, if anything Scripture has to say on this subject. Since person-to-person spiritual communication is not something any of us demonstrably experience, the only way we could know that it is real would be if God revealed that to us. Scripture is obviously Divine revelation, so we know that if it’s in the Bible, it’s true.

I am a strong believer in the communion of the saints. ‘Communion’, however, does not neccesarily mean ‘communication’. You have spiritual communion with those who are still physically alive, but not spiritual communication. I’ve always thought our communion with each other was only through God. The Eucharist is kind of a picture of this, which is why it is called communion. We are made one body by eating one bread, not because of any communication between ourselves.(1 Cor 10:17)

COMMUNION. In Christian parlance the most sacred expression for any one of different forms of togetherness. As communion between God and the human soul in the divine indwelling; between Christ and the recipient of the Eucharist in Holy Communion; among all who belong to the Mystical Body in heaven, purgatory, and on earth in the Communion of Saints; and among those who belong to the Catholic Church as a communion of the faithful. (Etym. Latin communio, sharing unity, association; participation.)

This raises some interesting questions. Were they physically there, or just spiritually? They were visible to the disciples, but so are angels sometimes. Elijah obviously did not die, so perhaps he recieved his spiritual body when he was taken up. Moses did die. It might be his resurrected body, but it seems wrong for anyone to have a resurrected body before Christ. But I digress. At any rate, Jesus is God, so He can have spiritual communication with whomever He wants anytime.

Very true here

I agree. It seems to me that the argument you’ve been having with Sandusky about whether the Saints are alive or dead is, if you will forgive me, a little silly. It is obvious that the Saints are spiritually alive, just as it is obvious that they are physically dead.

Don’t all of us agree?

The issue is not whether they are alive or dead. The issue is whether their physical death changes our ability to spiritually communicate with them.

you are absolutely right. It has been silly and I do agree with you.

Angels are mentioned here, but not saints.

SAINTS. A name given in the New Testament to Christians generally (Colossians 1:2) but early restricted to persons who were eminent for holiness. In the strict sense saints are those who distinguish themselves by heroic virtue during life and whom the Church honors as saints either by her ordinary universal teaching authority or by a solemn definition called canonization. The Church’s official recognition of sanctity implies that the persons are now in heavenly glory, that they may be publicly invoked everywhere, and that their virtues during life or martyr’s death are a witness and example to the Christian faithful. (Etym. Latin sanctus, holy, sacred.)
I provided this CC definition because “Angel” in itself merely means messenger so this would have more of an implication as to the holiness as perceived.

The branches don’t all connect to each other; they connect to the vine.

Thats good, although I don’t agree and still see it as all connected together, I do respect this answer.

Yes, but this is true of us on earth as well, including those whom we cannot communicate with.

This is an interesting interpretation. I’ve always thought that “witnesses” referred not to them witnessing us, but witnessing to us. As in:

“By faith Abel offered to God a sacrifice exceeding that of Cain, by which he obtained a testimony that he was just, God giving testimony to his gifts. And by it he being dead yet speaketh.” Heb. 11:4

The Biblical interpretation is - Though dead, he still speaks: possibly because his blood “cries out to me from the soil” (⇒ Genesis 4:10), but more probably a way of saying that the repeated story of Abel provides ongoing witness to faith.

Anyway, thanks. I’m not responding to all your verse in the interest of space and time (or should that be space/time?). I’m just thinking about all this.

You do put sincere thought into information you are provided and that is to be respected. Thanks you for your thoughts.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

You do put sincere thought into information you are provided and that is to be respected. Thanks you for your thoughts.

Much better than Sand or JustAsking isn’t it?

freesmileys.org/smileys/bounce014.giffreesmileys.org/smileys/bounce014.gif

 

[Peter_J]

Scripture is obviously Divine revelation,

Not to nick-pick, but I would not say that Scripture is obviously Divine revelation. Rather I would say that both sides – Catholic and Protestants (and, of course, Orthodox as well) – agree that Scripture is Divine revelation.

It seems to me that the argument you’ve been having with Sandusky about whether the Saints are alive or dead is, if you will forgive me, a little silly.

I too thought it rather pointless.

I’ve always thought that “witnesses” referred not to them witnessing us, but witnessing to us.

Interesting. To be honest, I guess it never occurred to me to read Heb 12:1 that way.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

SAINTS. A name given in the New Testament to Christians generally (Colossians 1:2) but early restricted to persons who were eminent for holiness. In the strict sense saints are those who distinguish themselves by heroic virtue during life and whom the Church honors as saints either by her ordinary universal teaching authority or by a solemn definition called canonization. The Church’s official recognition of sanctity implies that the persons are now in heavenly glory, that they may be publicly invoked everywhere, and that their virtues during life or martyr’s death are a witness and example to the Christian faithful. (Etym. Latin sanctus, holy, sacred.)
I provided this CC definition because “Angel” in itself merely means messenger so this would have more of an implication as to the holiness as perceived.

I didn’t elaborate here, and I fear I was slightly obtuse. My point was that you seem to be assuming that if the angels in heaven are aware of something, then the saints in heaven must also be aware of it. I don’t think this is necessarily true. The saints and angels probably have different experiences, duties, &c.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

Not to nick-pick, but I would not say that Scripture is obviously Divine revelation. Rather I would say that both sides – Catholic and Protestants (and, of course, Orthodox as well) – agree that Scripture is Divine revelation.

I don’t know. I think Scripture is by definition Divine revelation. If it’s not Divine revelation, it’s not Scripture. Of course not everyone agrees that the Bible is Scripture.