Prophets after Jesus

[josh987654321]

Someone can become a Baha’i only when they believe that Baha’u’llah speaks from the station of the absolute truth and authority of God.

That implies believing that that same “I AM” spoke through Jesus of Nazareth. Any Baha’i who denies the authority and divine station of Jesus is not in fact a Baha’i. Baha’is emphatically reject the idea that Jesus was merely a human being, however wise or enlightened, who taught moral truths to humanity.

Jesus embodied in His Person the power, truth, authority and station of Almighty God. None of us, no matter how sanctified we will ever become, can ever touch or begin to understand the loftiness of Christ’s station and power. To us as human beings, Jesus Christ IS God.

So why reject any of his teachings? and if you don’t reject any of his teachings, than why are you not Catholic? why Baha’i?

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

Because God is the elephant, and we are the blind men holding trunk, leg and tail.

The fallacy of that analogy is that if we are blind men holding the trunk, leg or tail of an elephant, than how is it that you can see the whole elephant to know that we are only holding the trunk, leg or tail?

The anaology assumes you can see the whole elephant and thus know that not one blind man holds the whole thing.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Servant19]

I would say:

an example

Certainly the Catholic Community is another example. There are Catholics of every race and cultural background and a very broad diversity of understandings about the nature of God and about other faiths such as Islam and the Baha’i Faith.

I believe that God does not play exclusive favorites with any religious body, and His Holy Spirit is found within the walls of all faiths.

Hi Matthew

Happy fasting period firstly. I pray you have a spiritually reviving month of fasting dear brother.

What would you say was the purpose, from your understanding, of Bah’u’llahs coming to mankind?

.

 

[Servant19]

Please explain if it is Catholic why does it exist?
Obviously if it was Catholic in thought and teaching
YOU would be attending a Catholic Church.
Lol

So it is not Catholic teaching to invite and assist others to be filled with the Holy Spirit and be in right relationship with God?

I never knew that…

.

 

[marywarfield]

So it is not Catholic teaching to invite and assist others to be filled with the Holy Spirit and be in right relationship with God?

I never knew that…

.

Clever that. But you cannot fulfill what has already been
fulfilled and as I said before if all you have to offer
is what the Church already offers what is your point
other than redundancy?

 

[Servant19]

Clever that. But you cannot fulfill what has already been
fulfilled and as I said before if all you have to offer
is what the Church already offers what is your point
other than redundancy?

I believe the purpose of the Bahai Community is to create saints out of every single person on earth. As I said, to “see Christ in ALL things”

I don’t believe that is a redundant endeavour

.

 

[josh987654321]

So it is not Catholic teaching to invite and assist others to be filled with the Holy Spirit and be in right relationship with God?

I never knew that…

ahhh, but it all depends on how you define right relationship with God, wouldn’t you agree? it’s kinda like the math test, when two students supply two completely different answers, they cannot both be correct.

A classic example would be the real presense in the Holy Eucharist, in Baha’i’s efforts to be ‘all embracing’ they are in effect losing the truth of the real presense of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist and thus in effect leading people away from Christ.

I believe the purpose of the Bahai Community is to create saints out of every single person on earth. As I said, to “see Christ in ALL things”

I don’t believe that is a redundant endeavour

What if Christ is not in ALL things? such as the hindu temple where false God’s are worshiped or the pagan altar where food is sacrificed to false idols?

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Servant19]

ahhh, but it all depends on how you define right relationship with God, wouldn’t you agree? it’s kinda like the math test, when two students supply two completely different answers, they cannot both be correct.

A classic example would be the real presense in the Holy Eucharist, in Baha’i’s efforts to be ‘all embracing’ they are in effect losing the truth of the real presense of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist and thus in effect leading people away from Christ.

What if Christ is not in ALL things? such as the hindu temple where false God’s are worshiped or the pagan altar where food is sacrificed to false idols?

Thank you for reading
Josh

God bless you Josh

May I ask you, in terms of dietary necessities, what is the right relationship between mother and child?

At one time, it is milk and only mothers milk
At another, it’s mashed up vegetables and a dab of mothers milk mixed in
At yet another it’s the Sunday roast, with gravy

I have yet to see the adult child requesting only mothers milk because that’s the ONLY dietary necessity, Sunday roast can’t be right, if mothers milk is right, right?

 

[josh987654321]

God bless you Josh

Thank you, God bless you too

May I ask you, in terms of dietary necessities, what is the right relationship between mother and child?

At one time, it is milk and only mothers milk
At another, it’s mashed up vegetables and a dab of mothers milk mixed in
At yet another it’s the Sunday roast, with gravy

I have yet to see the adult child requesting only mothers milk because that’s the ONLY dietary necessity, Sunday roast can’t be right, if mothers milk is right, right?

Nice analogy, but I believe it does not apply in the regard you wish to use it, as worshipping false God’s and sacrificing food to false idols would not be considered ‘*a different type of food’ *it’s considered ‘a type of poison’.

The damage done to souls through things like ouji boards, fortune telling, tarot cards and such black arts is enourmous, so these practices are very far from a different kind of food, they are poisons and if people wish to place the ‘ratsak poison’ in amongst the health food isle of the supermarket, than that I believe is just asking for trouble.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Dialogues]

The non-divine Jesus stumbled into Jerusalem and somehow got himself killed?

The Jews hated Jesus as he was speaking vociferously against them [Matthew 23], exposing their hypocrisy. Besides, they wanted a political messiah, who would give them power over the roman empire [much like some Muslim groups today seek political power using Islam as their excuse]. They were not so much interested in someone who would deliver them from their sins but not from the yoke of the roman empire. Blasphemy was a false charge against him, just as they falsely accused him before Pilate, putting undue pressure on him to crucify him. Jesus refuted their false charge of blasphemy in [John 10:30-36] explaining the expression son of God by reference to scripture; see my post #49. The Jewish leaders wanted him crucified as they would then be able to claim he died an accursed death in accordance with [Deut 21:23].

However in saying this you will find that all throughout the Gospels where Jesus’ divinity is challenged, he avoids the questions as much as possible, hence why he refers to himself as “the Son of Man.” because he wanted people to see it, to recognise who he was,

This is just an attempt to explain away why he never said ‘I am God, worship me’. It is not a natural conclusion that someone who used to eat and digest food regularly was God.

because if Jesus is not God, than by what authority could he tell you that he is?

And he never said he was God. People ascribe divinity to him, but not on his authority. Study [John 10:30-36] carefully; he clearly denies divinity.

Peace.

 

[josh987654321]

The Jews hated Jesus as he was speaking vociferously against them [Matthew 23], exposing their hypocrisy. Besides, they wanted a political messiah, who would give them power over the roman empire [much like some Muslim groups today seek political power using Islam as their excuse]. They were not so much interested in someone who would deliver them from their sins but not from the yoke of the roman empire. Blasphemy was a false charge against him, just as they falsely accused him before Pilate, putting undue pressure on him to crucify him. Jesus refuted their false charge of blasphemy in [John 10:30-36] explaining the expression son of God by reference to scripture; see my post #49. The Jewish leaders wanted him crucified as they would then be able to claim he died an accursed death in accordance with [Deut 21:23].

Would you agree that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God?

This is just an attempt to explain away why he never said ‘I am God, worship me’. It is not a natural conclusion that someone who used to eat and digest food regularly was God.

And he never said he was God. People ascribe divinity to him, but not on his authority. Study [John 10:30-36] carefully; he clearly denies divinity.

Peace.

About what you quoted from me, my apologies, when I said

Josh987654321:

because if Jesus is not God, than by what authority could he tell you that he is?

I had accidently backspaced too much of what I originally typed and thus only included half of what I was saying.

I meant to say -

If you don’t believe Jesus is God, than by what authority could he tell you that he is God? thus why it’s not a dodge when I say that he avoided the question and thus referred to himself as ‘The Son of Man’.

Do you agree that when Jesus referrences ‘the father’ he is talking about God? do you agree when Jesus say’s “I am one with the father and the father is one with me”? thus the divinity of Jesus?
John 14:1-14:

Jesus Is the Way to the Father

14 Jesus said to his disciples, “Don’t be worried! Have faith in God and have faith in me. 2 There are many rooms in my Father’s house. I wouldn’t tell you this, unless it was true. I am going there to prepare a place for each of you. 3 After I have done this, I will come back and take you with me. Then we will be together. 4 You know the way to where I am going.”

5 Thomas said, “Lord, we don’t even know where you are going! How can we know the way?”

6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life!” Jesus answered. “Without me, no one can go to the Father. 7 If you had known me, you would have known the Father. But from now on, you do know him, and you have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need.”

9 Jesus replied:

Philip, I have been with you for a long time. Don’t you know who I am? If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. How can you ask me to show you the Father? 10 Don’t you believe that I am one with the Father and that the Father is one with me? What I say isn’t said on my own. The Father who lives in me does these things.

11 Have faith in me when I say that the Father is one with me and that I am one with the Father. Or else have faith in me simply because of the things I do. 12 I tell you for certain that if you have faith in me, you will do the same things that I am doing. You will do even greater things, now that I am going back to the Father. 13 Ask me, and I will do whatever you ask. This way the Son will bring honor to the Father. 14 I will do whatever you ask me to do.

Matthew 16:13-20:

Who Is Jesus?

13 When Jesus and his disciples were near the town of Caesarea Philippi, he asked them, “What do people say about the Son of Man?”

14 The disciples answered, “Some people say you are John the Baptist or maybe Elijah or Jeremiah or some other prophet.”

15 Then Jesus asked them, “But who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter spoke up, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus told him:

Simon, son of Jonah, you are blessed! You didn’t discover this on your own. It was shown to you by my Father in heaven. 18 So I will call you Peter, which means “a rock.” On this rock I will build my church, and death itself will not have any power over it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and God in heaven will allow whatever you allow on earth. But he will not allow anything that you don’t allow.

20 Jesus told his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

This is the same question he asks mankind today, “Who do you say that I am?” Who is he for every man or woman, what’s important to Jesus is our personal response to these great questions: Who Am I for you? What do I mean to you?

As when Jesus would be taken before Pilate and he would say: “Are you the King of the Jews?”, Jesus replied: “Does that question come from you or are you repeating what others told you about Me?” (John 18:33-34) In the same way, when we tell Him: “You are the Lord, You are God; You are the Son of God”, Jesus asks us: Do you say this of your own accord, or is it because you have heard it?

 

[josh987654321]

Hi,

If you read the verses preceding [John 10:36], you will see that when Jesus is accused of blasphemy, he refutes it by saying that the expression ‘Gods’ has been used in scripture for those who were not actually Gods, but were so called only because they received the word of God.

Hence he proved to them that the charge of blasphemy was shown to be false from their own scripture, and he clearly said to them that they cannot refute/break his argument because it was from their scripture.

The fact is that ‘Son of God’ is a common Biblical metaphor meaning a beloved of God. It is used for Ephraim, Israel, David etc.

Peace.

The only problem with that theory I believe is that it doesn’t explain his claim that “I and the father are one.” in that very same passage you quoted (John 10:30), it doesn’t explain when Jesus said “Before Abraham was, I was and I am.” and many more.

Id say a Catholic theologian would be able to give you a good answer for that bit your having trouble with, but I cannot at this stage, but I will be looking into it don’t worry.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[MartinJordan]

The Jews hated Jesus as he was speaking vociferously against them [Matthew 23], exposing their hypocrisy. Besides, they wanted a political messiah, who would give them power over the roman empire [much like some Muslim groups today seek political power using Islam as their excuse]. They were not so much interested in someone who would deliver them from their sins but not from the yoke of the roman empire. Blasphemy was a false charge against him, just as they falsely accused him before Pilate, putting undue pressure on him to crucify him. Jesus refuted their false charge of blasphemy in [John 10:30-36] explaining the expression son of God by reference to scripture; see my post #49. The Jewish leaders wanted him crucified as they would then be able to claim he died an accursed death in accordance with [Deut 21:23].

This is just an attempt to explain away why he never said ‘I am God, worship me’. It is not a natural conclusion that someone who used to eat and digest food regularly was God.

And he never said he was God. People ascribe divinity to him, but not on his authority. Study [John 10:30-36] carefully; he clearly denies divinity.

Peace.

MJ

 

[rossum]

The only problem with that theory I believe is that it doesn’t explain his claim that “I and the father are one.” in that very same passage you quoted (John 10:30)

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

How can one God both know something and not know the same thing? Father and Son are different. If they are different, and there is only one God…

rossum

 

[Dialogues]

Most Muslims deny the crucifixion, based on a very ambiguous passage in the Quran.

Some however do not.

The passage is not straightforward at all:

“That they [the Jews] said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;”

One interpretation of this is that Jesus’ body was killed, and that the Jews thought they had killed Him, but of course the Spirit of God cannot be killed in reality.

Some Muslims follow that interpretation.

The verse first mentions the Jewish claim that they succeeded in having Jesus killed [which is what is to be done with false prophets], and says ‘they killed him not’. The natural question that arises from this is ‘what about the alleged crucifixion?’. The response to this is ‘nor crucified him’.

Then the question that arises is ‘then what happened?’ This is answered by saying ‘but so it was made to appear to them’, i.e. he appeared to them as though he had died on the cross. Crucifixion means death on the cross, not mere placement on it. This is true in English [check the dictionaries] as well as in Arabic. Just as a denial of drowning does not mean that the person concerned was never even in the water.

Thus he only fainted on the cross, and this was after he finished receiving a drink given to him, when he bowed his head, this being mistaken for death, viz:

• [John 19:28] After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfil the scripture), “I thirst.” 29 A bowl full of vinegar stood there; so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished”; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. *

It is fairly obvious that the drink was drugged, or his head would not have bowed immediately after finishing it.

Peace.

 

[josh987654321]

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

How can one God both know something and not know the same thing? Father and Son are different. If they are different, and there is only one God…

rossum

Id say this would need discussions on the trinity, but good question, I’ll have to look into it. Have you ever brought that question up on these forums before? if so could you give me a link please and if not i’ll start one.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Dialogues]

Hi Josh,

The only problem with that theory I believe is that it doesn’t explain his claim that “I and the father are one.” in that very same passage you quoted (John 10:30)

Read: * John 17:20-22 “That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE”. *

Are the disciples also considered to be God? No, clearly such expressions are to be taken as being metaphorical.

it doesn’t explain when Jesus said “Before Abraham was, I was and I am.” and many more.

This is also easy to understand. God is All-Knowing, and so the prophets were decreed well before the creation of the universe. It is no claim to divinity.

Peace.

 

[josh987654321]

Hi Josh,

Read: * John 17:20-22 “That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE”. *

Are the disciples also considered to be God? No, clearly such expressions are to be taken as being metaphorical.

This is also easy to understand. God is All-Knowing, and so the prophets were decreed well before the creation of the universe. It is no claim to divinity.

Peace.

I believe someone else on these forums will have to chime in here, I have a rough idea of what to say, but I have not studied a great deal of theology, so I would surely screw it up and run myself off into a ditch lol

Please ask these questions to others on CAF, I’m afraid I can’t go right into them as my answers in that regard would be a little ignorant.

Thanks for the discussion thus far Dialogues.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

I actually have a good theology book but I got a little tired of the first few pages of spirit and matter and how matter is different to spirit etc etc lol, it talks about the trinity alot though, the father, son and spirit being distinct but of the same nature etc I’ll be sure to read it now though as that knowledge would have come in handy right about now, in about a week or two I will have some answers for you both.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Dialogues]

Hi Josh,

Would you agree that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God?

In the sense in which the expression ‘Son of God’ is used in the Bible, i.e. as a beloved of God, I have no problems with saying ‘Yes’.

If you don’t believe Jesus is God, than by what authority could he tell you that he is God?

Why should I believe he is God in the first place, when he did not even say ‘I am God, worship me’? You believe he was God NOT because he said so, but because you have been told so that by other people who have been believing so. And this belief of theirs seems to be based on questionable interpretations of biblical passages.

thus why it’s not a dodge when I say that he avoided the question and thus referred to himself as ‘The Son of Man’.

IF he was God, then there was no need to avoid the issue. Was he afraid of people?

Peace.