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truthsilence
Guest
I forgot to mention Sacred Tradition and the Scriptures. With the Holy Spirit’s protection its a winning combination. 
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truthsilence
Guest
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zerinus
Guest
I don’t dispute that during the past 2000 years or so that Christianity has been around, many faithful Christians that have believed in Christ and led virtuous lives have had the wholesome influence of the Holy Spirit to guide them in their lives that has led them to acts of good, and even been inspired in a way to know truth and accomplish good things in the world and in the Christian church. There is a verse in the Book of Mormon that is applicable here:
Jarom 1:
4 And there are many among us who have many revelations, for they are not all stiffnecked. And as many as are not stiffnecked and have faith, have communion with the Holy Spirit, which maketh manifest unto the children of men, according to their faith.
But that is a different thing from the priesthood authority that the Quorum of the Twelve has to be able to govern the Church by revelation. That is a different thing entirely. Those types of inspiration cannot compensate for the absence of that.
zerinus
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TOmNossor
Guest
The Didache specifically says that you may know an apostle is false if they teary for more than a few days.
There are also places were local bishops are counseled to not travel from their flock in general.
These bits of info are offered to show things like Peter as the first Bishop of Rome (or the first Bishop of Antioch) is not something compatible with the earliest documents of the church.
LDS apostles like apostles of old are general authorities not local authorities. LDS bishops like bishops of old are local authorities not general authorities. This is a good read of the data and it radically undercuts the simple succession theories offered by Catholic apologists.
There was huge chaos and doctrinal confusion after the apostles departed. The Council of Nicea was called by Constantine because there was no church authority who could do this. The records we had in 1900 supported huge doctrinal confusion. The records we have discovered in the last century introduce Gnostic and whole new realms of confusion. It is likely other records were not preserved that would augment the view of the early church as radically diverse.
Certainly Rome was a very faithful church with strong leaders, but this is a long way from a singular bishop early on or the Bishop or Rome as head of the entire church early on or for quite some time.
There is certainly evidence that ECF spoke of the knowledge that was passed from earlier to counter act the new innovations, but such argument appear all over the place and do not necessarily map to what seems to have been the case.
Creation ex nihilo being an area I have studied, there is a curious argument from Tertullian where he condemns the innovations of a Hermogenes. He claims that this fellow is not right because his ideas are new. Elsewhere Tertullian argues that the Hermogenes he is addressing believes the same a fellow by the same name who proceeded him. Scholars (as opposed to theologians) now generally acknowledge that creation ex nihilo is a post Biblical (even mid 2nd century) creation. Tertullian undermined his own argument for us, but modern scholarship seems to suggest that he was right to have undermined it.
It is the data presented by Nibley and Sullivan and Eno that Catholic apologist have not dealt. I think assessing bias is not without its importance which is why I try to get info from sources with different biases.
I am all for your “faith that the Holy Spirit has been present all along.” And I know that by saying that you are not trying to suggest you have adopted a view contrary to what reason would direct you to take. I do suggest that the evidence that Nibley and Sullivan present is not something that I see discussed by Catholic apologists and I think it is significant.
Sullivan is a Catholic priest, he just recognizes the developed nature of the Catholic authority. I think Catholics who deal with the evidence need to see this in a way that I find absent from the argument of Dahlgren, Hess, Butler, Madrid, and …
Charity, TOm
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majick275
Guest
and I don’t see that as problematic since I see apostles as a unique calling in the time of Christ incarnation and NOT as a perpetual office.
okay. I see apostles as both apostle AND bishop. I see their successors as bishops only.
only if you approach this from an LDS point of view. I still see no evidence that Apostle is an “office” that was to perpetuate. I think there is vast evidence to support councils of bishops making decisions for the church and Rome being accorded a prime status.
these were no worse than the issues we face today. there was in fact sufficient consensus that we see a definite difference between what was considered orthodox vs. what was considered heterodox then. we see a church that obviously was capable of making such decisions but was not so open about it until gaining imperial support from constantine.
this is an area where documentation is sketchy and thus our point of view has greater impact on our interpretation on of what is there.
enough with the strawman. save creatio ex nihilo for it’s own thread. If you want to keep basing on the tertullians and hermogones then I have to respond with the greater ecclestiastical authority (within their own church) of Mconkie, Pratt, petersen, etc.
but is the reason catholoc apologists have ingored this that they have no answer or just that it is considered insignificant? I see that you value this liine of reasoning and I have no cause to demean it. I just don’t share your view of it’s importance.
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majick275
Guest
continued
I look at the didache, polycarp, clement, hermas, ignatius, etc. as a whole and consider the authority each held, their circumstances, the condition of the writings we have attributed to them and process that through and obviously catholic perspective. I am in effect “screening in”. that being said I do not find what I consider to be grave contradictions that I must discard, resulting in my own cherry picking, proof texting, etc. I find the overall ECF view of the church to be very catholic and I certainly don’t find evidence of either mormonism or an apostasy.
the Eucharist calls you even now. That is probably the biggest weekly faith builder I have. That is my spiritual witness that has rewarded my search for truth.
see above. I don’t know that most catholics share your view of what the important evidence is. That’s not say your viewpoint isn’t worthy of consideration just that it may be unique.
I look at the didache, polycarp, clement, hermas, ignatius, etc. as a whole and consider the authority each held, their circumstances, the condition of the writings we have attributed to them and process that through and obviously catholic perspective. I am in effect “screening in”. that being said I do not find what I consider to be grave contradictions that I must discard, resulting in my own cherry picking, proof texting, etc. I find the overall ECF view of the church to be very catholic and I certainly don’t find evidence of either mormonism or an apostasy.
the Eucharist calls you even now. That is probably the biggest weekly faith builder I have. That is my spiritual witness that has rewarded my search for truth.
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rikkk1958
Guest
For information to those who are late in this thread:
What is: CojCoLDS, IMO, ECF, SSPX, and etc, pls give us update. Thanks
PS. Who is Tom Nossor? a true LDS or a reformed LDS?
What is: CojCoLDS, IMO, ECF, SSPX, and etc, pls give us update. Thanks
PS. Who is Tom Nossor? a true LDS or a reformed LDS?
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zerinus
Guest
Yes, after some thought, here are some additional scriptures comes to my mind:
Galatians 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ephesians 5:
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; )
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
D&C 11:
12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.
13 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I will impart unto you of my Spirit, which shall enlighten your mind, which shall fill your soul with joy;
14 And then shall ye know, or by this shall you know, all things whatsoever you desire of me, which are pertaining unto things of righteousness, in faith believing in me that you shall receive.
D&D 50:
23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.
24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.
D&C 88:
67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.
68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.
zerinus
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majick275
Guest
okay:
CoJCoLDS= church of jesus christ of latter day saints (mormons)
IMO= in my opinion
ECF = Early Church Father (such as polycarp, clement, augustine, etc.)
SSPX = society of saint pius X ( a catholic splinter group that pretty much rejected vatican 2 )
Tom Nossor is a convert to mormonism who is very much LDS and likes apologetics.
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truthsilence
Guest
I realize in my last post, I said “you believe”. Ha! I don’t want to misrepresent what you believe. So if I was mistaken, I’m sorry about that.
You replied that you believe that during the past 2000 years or so, there have been many faithful Christians that have believed in Christ, led virtuous lives and had the influence of the Holy Spirit to guide them.
Well, Zerinus, don’t you believe that same Holy Spirit who influenced those faithful Christians also had enough influence to keep the church Jesus established going? Don’t you think it would be of great interest to the Lord that those early Christians who were led by the Spirit, even if at times they were small in number, would be able to commune with one another and participate in the Sacraments instituted by Christ?
I can’t comprehend why God would be so seemingly disinterested in those faithful early Christians, that He would allow His church to break down and be left without any Sacraments for 1800 years. I can’t comprehend that the Holy Spirit would be with some people, but not the people in authority positions of the church. Why would the Holy Spirit fail to guide them in knowing who to ordain, and pass that authority to?
I think you are going to tell me it is because all the people in authority positions either became wicked or were killed. But that just doesn’t make any sense.
I believe Jesus knew what He was doing when he established His church, and when He said things like the gates of hell would not prevail against it, and that He would not leave them orphans, he really meant it. I think He chose people who, infused by the Holy Spirit, were determined to carry out His admonitions to carry His Gospel to the ends of the earth. And by the influence and guidance of the Holy Spirit, I believe they’ve succeeded in an unbroken chain to this day.
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zerinus
Guest
You would be surprised by what I am “going to tell you”. I believe that during the past 2,000 years of Christian history, there have been good and bad people at all levels of the Christian establishments. I don’t think that the “good people” were confined just to the laity. I think that there have been good and bad among the clergy. I think there have been good and bad Popes. Those who were good had the inspiration of the Spirit to guide them. But there were also bad ones mixed with them. Do you remember the parable of the wheat and the tares in the New Testament? That is a fulfilment of that parable.
The church itself didn’t die. The true church consisted of those true believers in Christ (the “wheat”), which have existed throughout Christian history—mixed with the “tares” who are the children of the kingdom of the devil. What has been missing from the true church has been the priesthood authority, and all the true offices and sacraments that goes with it. The purpose of this Restoration is to actually separate the “wheat” from the “tares,” preparatory to the second coming of Christ. The separation takes place as the “wheat” (the true church) recognize the truth of the Restoration by the witness of the Holy Ghost, and join it; while the “tares” are left out, and “bound in bundles” ready to be burned. That is why we don’t preach against any religion. We believe that the true church of Christ are mixed in with them. Go back and read the parable of the wheat and the tares, and you will have a better idea of what I am talking about.
zerinus
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rikkk1958
Guest
Thanks majick275.
Whew, these people are really good but ours is better because we do not need to be a genius inorder to understand the teachings and messages of Jesus. Simple messages are for simple people and it will not discriminate wheteher you are dumb or a scientist. Salvation must be for everyone and you do not need to be a scientist to decipher what Jesus did and said. We do not need another revelation or another interpretation to know the meaning of salvation our Lord offered. What Jesus said was enough for me to understand and to have faith in the Church He wanted built. I am proud of the tradition of our Church with the succession of the Vicar of Christ. It may not be perfect but in the end we endured, made amends on our mistakes, and now the Church grows in Love. Fellow Catholics, remain steadfast and be glad of our faith. I salute the defender of the faith, please keep up your wonderful works.
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PattyPryor
Guest
okay i have a question.
The LDS I have talked to say that Peter took the keys with him. So like I’m confused by the LDS position still to this day even after reading the Bom, Pearl of great price and D&C oh ya I read the Bible too
So anyway like after jesus died and then peter. peter went “THERE MY KEYS YOU CAN’T HAVE THEM! I"M TAKING THEM WITH ME!”
Okay I say that to be funny I know he didn’t say that. But the LDS really believe that the church was like corrupt after like 100 years after jesus died. Heck even sooner than that.
What was the point of Jesus dying for our salvaion then if he was just gonna take the One true “church” away so fast?
I say “church” like that cuz of other faiths.
So then later Joseph Smith was out in the forest and God and Jesus came down and told him to restore it?
Like could God in his glory do that himself?
I do not understand how people can be LDS to be honest with you.
Its like a puzzle with a thousands of missing pieces
The LDS I have talked to say that Peter took the keys with him. So like I’m confused by the LDS position still to this day even after reading the Bom, Pearl of great price and D&C oh ya I read the Bible too
So anyway like after jesus died and then peter. peter went “THERE MY KEYS YOU CAN’T HAVE THEM! I"M TAKING THEM WITH ME!”
Okay I say that to be funny I know he didn’t say that. But the LDS really believe that the church was like corrupt after like 100 years after jesus died. Heck even sooner than that.
What was the point of Jesus dying for our salvaion then if he was just gonna take the One true “church” away so fast?
I say “church” like that cuz of other faiths.
So then later Joseph Smith was out in the forest and God and Jesus came down and told him to restore it?
Like could God in his glory do that himself?
I do not understand how people can be LDS to be honest with you.
Its like a puzzle with a thousands of missing pieces
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truthsilence
Guest
This parable says nothing about the True Church, the Sacraments, or Priesthood Authority as ever “missing” from the earth. I think you’re placing too much attention on the poor soil/plants rather than the good soil/plants. Of course that is something one needs to do, in order to put forward the doctrine of an apostasy with complete loss of Priesthood etc. But it just isn’t there. And certainly not in this parable.
I found this:
The Church listens to the warnings, has been aware of every heresy, and has fought against them from the beginning and continues to do so.
What keeps coming to my mind are some of the doctrines not exclusive to Mormonism, but which are perpetuated through Mormonism. Particularly the rejection of the One true God in exchange for multiple Gods; our Father in Heaven being just one of the many. This is a prime example of heresy and one of the easiest to spot if you have the Spirit of God within you.
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zerinus
Guest
This is the parable of the wheat and the tares found in the in the NT:
Matthew 13:
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
36 . . . and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom [of God]; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
This parable suggests that the “wheat” and “tares” are hard to distinguish at first as they grow, which means it cannot just be referring to “heretics” as you understand them. In modern scripture the Lord has explained the parable more fully in these words:
D&C 86:
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants, concerning the parable of the wheat and of the tares:
2 Behold, verily I say, the field was the world, and the apostles were the sowers of the seed;
3 And after they have fallen asleep the great persecutor of the church, the apostate, the whore, even Babylon, that maketh all nations to drink of her cup, in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reign—behold he soweth the tares; wherefore, the tares choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness.
4 But behold, in the last days, even now while the Lord is beginning to bring forth the word, and the blade is springing up and is yet tender—
5 Behold, verily I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night, who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields;
6 But the Lord saith unto them, pluck not up the tares while the blade is yet tender (for verily your faith is weak), lest you destroy the wheat also.
7 Therefore, let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the tares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the tares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be burned.
D&C 101:
65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;
66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire.
That “gathering of the wheat” takes place as the true believers in Christ (which constitutes the “church” in the widest sense) accept the Restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and join His true Church out of all churches and religions of the world; while the “tares” are bound in bundles ready to be burned.
zerinus
Matthew 13:
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
36 . . . and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom [of God]; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
This parable suggests that the “wheat” and “tares” are hard to distinguish at first as they grow, which means it cannot just be referring to “heretics” as you understand them. In modern scripture the Lord has explained the parable more fully in these words:
D&C 86:
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants, concerning the parable of the wheat and of the tares:
2 Behold, verily I say, the field was the world, and the apostles were the sowers of the seed;
3 And after they have fallen asleep the great persecutor of the church, the apostate, the whore, even Babylon, that maketh all nations to drink of her cup, in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reign—behold he soweth the tares; wherefore, the tares choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness.
4 But behold, in the last days, even now while the Lord is beginning to bring forth the word, and the blade is springing up and is yet tender—
5 Behold, verily I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night, who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields;
6 But the Lord saith unto them, pluck not up the tares while the blade is yet tender (for verily your faith is weak), lest you destroy the wheat also.
7 Therefore, let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the tares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the tares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be burned.
D&C 101:
65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;
66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire.
That “gathering of the wheat” takes place as the true believers in Christ (which constitutes the “church” in the widest sense) accept the Restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and join His true Church out of all churches and religions of the world; while the “tares” are bound in bundles ready to be burned.
zerinus
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PattyPryor
Guest
Why are you using D&C to prove your point? Most of us on this forum don’t see it as inspired or even true.
no one has answered my question above
no one has answered my question above
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Jerusha
Guest
Please allow me to paraphrase and comment on what you just wrote to match my own personal beliefs.
That “gathering of the wheat” (is this why LDS people like to store wheat against the privations of the end times, and group together in communities obsessed with persecution?) takes place as disillusioned LDS reject the gospels of JS and BY and join the True Church united with Rome…As the LDS church falters and then fails, those who leave it come to understand why the Latter Day Saints took that name. The early “Saints” personalized the belief that when the fraud would be found out it would seem to true believers that the world would be coming to an end. And many true believers would rather see the world come to an end, than meet the Real Jesus.
That “gathering of the wheat” (is this why LDS people like to store wheat against the privations of the end times, and group together in communities obsessed with persecution?) takes place as disillusioned LDS reject the gospels of JS and BY and join the True Church united with Rome…As the LDS church falters and then fails, those who leave it come to understand why the Latter Day Saints took that name. The early “Saints” personalized the belief that when the fraud would be found out it would seem to true believers that the world would be coming to an end. And many true believers would rather see the world come to an end, than meet the Real Jesus.
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truthsilence
Guest
I studied this parable further last night, Again, I saw no indication that it was speaking of an Apostasy of the Church.
As far as the wheat and tares being hard to distinguish, I agree, because the weed in its first stage of growth can resemble the wheat. Jesus instructs the disciples that they must allow the weeds to grow among the wheat and that they must not to try to pluck out the weeds because they might pluck the wheat as well. On a personal level, each individual receives the word of God in different ways and with different circumstances in their lives when they receive it. On an individual basis we don’t always nurture it or live our lives as we are taught. Some may hear the word, but never accept it. Some hear and accept but later fall away because of persecution, anxiety or worldly seductions such as riches, etc. But those who are not faithful, or who don’t produce good fruit are still allowed to live among those who do. That is why the Church is to continue to cry repentance to all the earth. But remember, the parable also speaks of those who hear and respond to the word, and produce fruit abundantly!
Until the final judgment when God will eliminate evil, the Church is to be wise, (preach sound doctrine - eliminate heresy) be patient, preach repentance, and wait on the Lord, He alone is the one who will make a definitive exclusion of sinners from the kingdom.
J
Jerusha
Guest
Truthsilence:
Comparing your post with Z’s makes it very clear how far the standard interpretation of the wheat and tares parable is from the LDS one. No wonder JS felt it necessary to “retranslate” (edit) the Bible to match his teachings. (Just like I felt it necessary to edit Z’s post to transform it into something that would match my beliefs
)
Comparing your post with Z’s makes it very clear how far the standard interpretation of the wheat and tares parable is from the LDS one. No wonder JS felt it necessary to “retranslate” (edit) the Bible to match his teachings. (Just like I felt it necessary to edit Z’s post to transform it into something that would match my beliefs
)
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truthsilence
Guest
Hey JerushaTruthsilence:
Comparing your post with Z’s makes it very clear how far the standard interpretation of the wheat and tares parable is from the LDS one. No wonder JS felt it necessary to “retranslate” (edit) the Bible to match his teachings. (Just like I felt it necessary to edit Z’s post to transform it into something that would match my beliefs
Yes and that is why as an LDS I felt like I was always reading the Bible with this intense need to make what I was being taught fit with what the Word was actually saying to me. The conflict was too great to bear. I’m presently working on reading through the NT from start to finish. It’s pretty awesome reading it without that need to force meaning upon it. It is a completely new and different and wonderful experience.
Peace,
Tami
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