Protestant Innovation - Protestants please explain your Innovated Tradition of using Grape Juice rather than Wine for Holy Communion

[SingleMomMonica]

Please Monica I know Greek so let’s talk.

The word used in John 2 to describe the wine as being good is the word kalos. Kalos literally means beautiful to look at. It has nothing to do with being strong.

Next!!!

A true Greek would never use English letters for a Greek word. You are so silly!

 

[geometer]

Has any Evangelical Protestant an answer to unfermented grape juice being a modern innovation dating to a little after the American Civil War? Talk about revisionist history.

Pasturization was invented by Louis Pasteur during the 1800’s. Protestants see it as in line with the prohibition of leavening during passover.

 

[erigby27]

I still do not like to attend Catholic socials because of the use of alcohol. I am not saying that it’s a sin. I’m saying that I find it objectionable and that it is highly unlikely that I will ever fully accept the use of alcohol by anyone, but especially by Christians.

You are not saying it is a sin, but you are saying it is objectionable? I’m sorry, but I don’t see the difference.

Jesus drank wine- that much is clear. I think it’s safe to say that nothing Our Lord partook in was objectionable in anyway. To say so would be to accuse him of sin (and to accuse Jesus Christ of evil is the UNFORGIVABLE SIN that the pharisees committed when they said that Jesus’ miracles were of the devil).

Jews of that day would never have consumed grape juice at a Passover Seder. In fact the Seder (which is very structured) calls for consumption of 4 glasses of wine per person at specific times.

At that time, wine was so strong that water needed to be added to make it drinkable (hence our tradition of adding water to the wine prior to its consecration). Even after water was added, however, the wine certainly would not be comparable to grape juice.

Fundamentalist Christianity is not like early Christianity. It developed quite recently, not because of a calling from God, but as a reaction to Enlightenment thinking. It rejects “worldly” things as being evil.

Of course, Catholics know that God is in ALL things. Just because something is of the world, does not mean it is evil. Jesus was human AND divine!!! Was His Body evil, because it was of the world?? God’s truth is revealed in the beauty of the world. This is why we are allowed to ENJOY His gifts, in moderation. This includes beautiful sunrises, lovely flowers, delicious food, and, yes, even alcohol!

God Bless

 

[spoiltvictorian]

Pasturization was invented by Louis Pasteur during the 1800’s. Protestants see it as in line with the prohibition of leavening during passover.

I don’t get what you’re saying. Pasteurized grape juice dates to the later 1800s. No matter what some Protestants think, nobody was drinking unfermented grape juice in Biblical, Medieval, or Reformation times.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Wikipedia (I know, I know ) puts protestantism at roughly 700 million, so Lutherans are something at or just above 10%. Anglicans are not part of that total as they are not considered part of the protestant movement.

Thank you for the stats.

That’s so funny! Since when are Anglicans Not Protestants - the founder of the Anglican Church was King Henry the 8th and he was definately PROTESTING the Catholic Church and specifically her Teaching on Divorce when he created his own form of Christianity.

Knowing the type of person King Henry VIII was, a murder and adulterer, etc., and how and why he created his own Church separate from the Church Jesus established with St. Peter, it completely boggles my mind as to why anyone would choose to remain in the Anglican Church back then and especially today. But that would be another Thread.

 

[geometer]

I don’t get what you’re saying. Pasteurized grape juice dates to the later 1800s. No matter what some Protestants think, nobody was drinking unfermented grape juice in Biblical, Medieval, or Reformation times.

I don’t believe that protestants think that unfermented grape juice was used. However, they do not believe that stopping the fermentation of the grape juice makes it significantly different than the substance of new wine, which contains little alcohol…

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Since the Last Supper was a Passover Feast, would the wine that Jesus turned into His Blood, not have been Passover (Kosher) Wine? The Jewish wine regulations have not changed, and today’s Passover Wine is made under explicit rules, and it does contain alcohol.
As for alcohol content of present-day altar wines, it can vary greatly, from about 10% up to maybe as much as 14%. At the altar, before being confected at the words of Jesus by the priest, a little water is added. It is highly unlikely that anyone child or adult is going to get drunk on the alcohol content of a sip of the Precious Blood from the chalice.
Someone taking some brands of cough medicine may be getting more alcohol than from Holy Communion.

chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/627626/jewish/Is-alcohol-chametz.htm

check out this link it says that some Jews refrain from alcohol except for the wine. now i have check a few Jewish web sites and find nothing that say the wine is alcohol free as a matter of fact they say that for passover wine just that the yeast must not come for bread but from sugar or fruit.

 

[geometer]

chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/627626/jewish/Is-alcohol-chametz.htm

check out this link it says that some Jews refrain from alcohol except for the wine. now i have check a few Jewish web sites and find nothing that say the wine is alcohol free as a matter of fact they say that for passover wine just that the yeast must not come for bread but from sugar or fruit.

There are many kinds of yeast. If you would like to make your own wine from grape juice you should buy a wine yeast from a wine making shop.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

There are many kinds of yeast. If you would like to make your own wine from grape juice you should buy a wine yeast from a wine making shop.

the point is that the wine for passover contains alcohol. All wine contains alcohol the wine Jesus used at the last super contained alcohol. There was not grape juice till Mr. Welch invented it in the late 1800’s. Until that time there was no way to keep the Juice from fermenting.

 

[geometer]

the point is that the wine for passover contains alcohol. All wine contains alcohol the wine Jesus used at the last super contained alcohol. There was not grape juice till Mr. Welch invented it in the late 1800’s. Until that time there was no way to keep the Juice from fermenting.

Ok, that’s fine, but who was it that was arguing against your position?

 

[zzz]

the point is that the wine for passover contains alcohol. All wine contains alcohol the wine Jesus used at the last super contained alcohol. There was not grape juice till Mr. Welch invented it in the late 1800’s. Until that time there was no way to keep the Juice from fermenting.

Actually, there was…there were at least four methods of preserving grape juice known in ancient times…

biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html

 

[JonNC]

Perhaps but the Lutheran and Anglicans wine is only wine and the Eucharistic wine is the Blood of Jesus Christ.

Ufamtobie

I knew it wouldn’t last.

 

[spoiltvictorian]

Actually, there was…there were at least four methods of preserving grape juice known in ancient times…

biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html

That book in general is a good example of someone interpreting the Bible by the traditions of men. Interesting research, but of course that does not mean those methods were used often and especially not that they were used for something important like a wedding or a religious ceremony.

 

[JonNC]

AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

Please read this post:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4805608&postcount=55

And, while you’re at it, please look at the quote from Cardinal Ratzinger in JonNC’s signature line.

And then, if you still stand by what you posted, explain why you think you know more about where God is and is not, than a man who became Pope.

Iowa,
Ufamtobie (and most good Catholics) will and must stand by his post, and I wouldn’t expect them to do otherwise, as the Catholic Church denies our Eucharist invalid because we are not in apostolic succession.
The document I lifted that quote from is here:
usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml
It is quite interesting, and reflects that things may not be as black and white as the old polemics and condemnations would lead one to believe.

Jon

 

[IowaJay]

Iowa,
Ufamtobie (and most good Catholics) will and must stand by his post, and I wouldn’t expect them to do otherwise, as the Catholic Church denies our Eucharist invalid because we are not in apostolic succession.
The document I lifted that quote from is here:
usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml
It is quite interesting, and reflects that things may not be as black and white as the old polemics and condemnations would lead one to believe.

Jon

I don’t know this for sure, but I may have been the one to introduce you to that quote, as I cited it in these forums several months ago here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4001019&postcount=107

and here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4002416&postcount=161

and here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4005670&postcount=173

I think its safe to say its one of my favorite quotes from Pope Benedict XVI. I was away from these forums for a few months, and when I came back, I was happy to see it in your signature line.

 

[Cat]

You are not saying it is a sin, but you are saying it is objectionable? I’m sorry, but I don’t see the difference.

Jesus drank wine- that much is clear. I think it’s safe to say that nothing Our Lord partook in was objectionable in anyway. To say so would be to accuse him of sin (and to accuse Jesus Christ of evil is the UNFORGIVABLE SIN that the pharisees committed when they said that Jesus’ miracles were of the devil).

Jews of that day would never have consumed grape juice at a Passover Seder. In fact the Seder (which is very structured) calls for consumption of 4 glasses of wine per person at specific times.

At that time, wine was so strong that water needed to be added to make it drinkable (hence our tradition of adding water to the wine prior to its consecration). Even after water was added, however, the wine certainly would not be comparable to grape juice.

Fundamentalist Christianity is not like early Christianity. It developed quite recently, not because of a calling from God, but as a reaction to Enlightenment thinking. It rejects “worldly” things as being evil.

Of course, Catholics know that God is in ALL things. Just because something is of the world, does not mean it is evil. Jesus was human AND divine!!! Was His Body evil, because it was of the world?? God’s truth is revealed in the beauty of the world. This is why we are allowed to ENJOY His gifts, in moderation. This includes beautiful sunrises, lovely flowers, delicious food, and, yes, even alcohol!

God Bless

Perhaps I am using the wrong word by saying “objectionable.”

Would it make a difference if I used the word “gross?” Or “icky?”

I don’t think these words imply sin. I do not think drinking alcohol in moderation is a sin. But I think it’s gross and icky.

 

[JonNC]

I don’t know this for sure, but I may have been the one to introduce you to that quote, as I cited it in these forums several months ago here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4001019&postcount=107

and here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4002416&postcount=161

and here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4005670&postcount=173

I think its safe to say its one of my favorite quotes from Pope Benedict XVI. I was away from these forums for a few months, and when I came back, I was happy to see it in your signature line.

You are quite correct in all of your posts, and I heartily agree. Some Catholics will point out, however, that the determinations in the dialogues are not necessarily Catholic teaching - yet. So, Ufamtobie may tend to take what you and I few as the hard line, not the convergence line appearing in dialogue statements, and which seems to be supported by then Cr. Ratzinger.

Jon

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Ok, that’s fine, but who was it that was arguing against your position?

mystified for one.

 

[mercygate]

FBL I wasn’t trying to be nasty honestly and I certainly wasn’t implying ONLY fruit of the vine as in no big deal. You need to re-read my post. I said Jesus still referred to it as fruit of the vine even after HE supposedly consecrated it. Meaning that it’s clear Jesus recognized it as being wine or grape juice whatever it was. I wasn’t downplaying it at all.

But the word wine is never used in reference to communion. Christ calls the cup the new covenant in HIS blood. So the covenant is in HIS blood and the cup represents it. But after Christ supposedly changes it to blood HE calls it fruit of the vine and states HE will not drink again until HE drinks it new in Heaven with HIS disciples. If fruit of the vine is wine or grape juice then Christ didn’t make a physical change to blood. Unless HE was calling HIS blood wine

And I didn’t forget the Pope supposedly takes his orders from Jesus. What I’m saying is if you knock Protestants for using grape juice for good reasons, then you have to look at the Pope’s actions also and his reasoning. If it came from Christ then it just shows that Christ is just as sensitive as Protestants are trying to be by using grape juice.

The “cup” Jesus refers to as the “blood of the new covenant” is a Passover cup. Ergo: wine. Nothing but wine.

 

[mercygate]

The Jews did not accuse Christ of being drunk. They accused the Apostles of being drunk when they were speaking in tongues. They called Christ a drunkard because he drank wine.

Jesus himself says he is accused of being a drunkard in Matt 11 and Luke 7: ". . . they say, `Behold, a glutton and adrunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’

But this thread is about why Protestants do not use wine in the Lord’s Supper. I believe this practice came in strong with the temperance movement in the late 19th century, in America. It arose among the holiness churches. as AllisChalmers said earlier: they are attempting not to be a stumbling block for others.

I can understand not drinking alcohol because of that, but do not see any rationale for refusing to use it in the Lord’s Supper.