Protestants are not a different "religion" from Catholics

[tqualey]

Hi, TraditionalWay,

Let me invite you back to post #539.

If you are going to maintain the position you have established for yourself, then I think you need to address how you reconcile it with the teachings of the Catholic Church which are the opposite.

God bless

First time posting in this category actually… I tend to view more on the traditional laws…

Well if they are not excommunicated from the church, why wont the church allow them receiving the host? Because they are not in communion… so they still are excommunicated…

They still are heretics… since they don’t accept catholic doctrines such as the real presence of Christ in the host, Papal infeasibility etc… so… since they still follow the heretical ways, still are baptised the heretical ways… I would disagree and say they are still heretics

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Coptic Christian,



God bless

All those that do not and cannot accept the Eucharist are not excommunicated just not properly Catechized. That includes Protestants, Muslims, Hindu’s etc.

They are not heretics if they do not know they embrace heresy. How can you be responsible for declaring to be something you do not know is false. Those baptized in the trinitarian formula are Christian, even if they deny this makes them a Christian, and I agree there are heretical baptisms, ie Mormons. Oneness Pentacostals are Modalists and deny the trinity and I believe they baptize in the name of Jesus only.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi, TraditionalWay,

Let me invite you back to post #539.

If you are going to maintain the position you have established for yourself, then I think you need to address how you reconcile it with the teachings of the Catholic Church which are the opposite.

God bless

I agree. You have provided an example of what it is to be stubborn. You have been corrected in your position and continue to spew falsely. Read the posts, read your catechism, search Catholic Answers and stop declaring things that are not true to be true.

I will be the first to say that I am not necessarily in favor of this teaching, I don’t like this teaching, I would not have rendered this teaching…but I am not the Magesterium. When I consider that the Magesterium has never lied to me, has provided me truth, and when I consider that this is the Church Christ founded and all thoughts through time through the Church are consistent…I have to get on board and repent. Repent=Change your Mind…get it.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Inquiringperson
I don’t get what you’re saying. You can’t say that you are apostolic if your beliefs are contrary to doctrines. Protestant beliefs are considered heresy by the Catholic Church.

NOT all of them. Just those that do not even accept what the bible itself say’s. For example:

Only One God; One set of Faith beliefs, and One religious church [today’s CC]
Mt. 16:18-19, Mt. 28:19-20, John 20:19-22

Te real Presence: John 6, Mt. 26, Mk.14, Lk.22, Paul 1st. Cor. 11 [And Jesus in each of them]

Forgiveness of sins: 1 Jn.1:8-10, 1 Jn.5:16-17, John 20:19-23

Salvation as a PROCESS: requiring Baptism Jn. 3:5], Obedience to ALL of the Commandments **Mt. 17:19], **Grace: **Acts.15: 11 **“But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” Charity/ Good works [James Chapter 2], Obedience to rightful church authority [meaning the CC], Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; **that through the church [singular] ****the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, **

**2 John 8-9 **Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son

**John 5: 37 **“; and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life [Speaking of accepting the entire WORD of GOD]. I do not receive glory from men. [Meaning disobedience is rampant!] But I know that you have not the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me” [Obey Me!]

2 Thess. 1: 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Mt.7: 21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

If Protestants are not Christian, what religion are they? Buddhist? Hindu? Taoist?

OF COURSE ther ARE Chrustians. The REAL question is: are they informed and obedient to ALL that Christ Himself commads; Christians? And if not; can/ will they be saved?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[jmoneyideas]

OF COURSE ther ARE Chrustians. The REAL question is: are they informed and obedient to ALL that Christ Himself commads; Christians? And if not; can/ will they be saved?

God Bless,
Pat

Pat,
I find you insights very profound. Especially since reading your Blog for the past 2 Hours.

You ask a great question, I feel it is hard to say if they are truly informed. When I share some thing that contradicts the Protestant stance on things such as Saints or the Eucharist and Read the Scriptures that pertain to the subject such as in Revelations for “Saints” or any Last Supper passage that isn’t in only Lukes Gospel and read them Johns passages about the eating of the Flesh and Blood of Christ literally meaning such, they give me a perplexing look, its like these things are skipped over. Which leads me to another thing, if things are purposely skipped over than these Pastors that are teaching these things have better be prepared at Judgement because that will be Judged the most.

Anyways LOVE the Blog too… Lots and I mean lots of Scripture and reference material on it.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PJM,

Great post!

Following Christ in only the convenient things should raise a flag in the minds of such followers. This is especially true for those Protestants on CAF that refuse to believe in the Real Presence, Confession, and the Church Christ founded on Peter… whose current successor is Benedict XVI.

God bless

NOT all of them. Just those that do not even accept what the bible itself say’s. For example:

Only One God; One set of Faith beliefs, and One religious church [today’s CC]
Mt. 16:18-19, Mt. 28:19-20, John 20:19-22

Te real Presence: John 6, Mt. 26, Mk.14, Lk.22, Paul 1st. Cor. 11 [And Jesus in each of them]

Forgiveness of sins: 1 Jn.1:8-10, 1 Jn.5:16-17, John 20:19-23

Salvation as a PROCESS: requiring Baptism Jn. 3:5], Obedience to ALL of the Commandments **Mt. 17:19], **Grace: **Acts.15: 11 **“But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” Charity/ Good works [James Chapter 2], Obedience to rightful church authority [meaning the CC], Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; **that through the church [singular] **the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,

**2 John 8-9 **Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son

**John 5: 37 **“; and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life [Speaking of accepting the entire WORD of GOD]. I do not receive glory from men. [Meaning disobedience is rampant!] But I know that you have not the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me” [Obey Me!]

2 Thess. 1: 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Mt.7: 21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

OF COURSE ther ARE Chrustians. The REAL question is: are they informed and obedient to ALL that Christ Himself commads; Christians? And if not; can/ will they be saved?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Highcalling,

This sounds good to me!

God bless

Assertion: Protestants are not a different “religion” from Catholics

Rebut: Protestants by definition reject the office of the papacy and have lost the faith. Since it only takes the loss of one essential point of faith for a person to lose the faith and devolve into mere opinion, it is evident that Protestant is a man-made religion. God is only truly worshiped in the Catholic Church. The Protestants are outside the Church. Therefore they do not have the virtue of religion.

 

[PJM]

=wisdomseeker;8564524]2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

My dear freind in Christ,

If my implication or intent your message is that Confession of sin is unnecessary; you are sadly mistaken.

I’m confident that you can understand that no one part of the bible can [or does] contradict another passage. were this even the slightest possibility, the bible would have absolutely no value, no us, in teahing or learning ones faith.

In Matt. 15:18-19; Jesus chooses Peter to lead his One Faith, ONLY One set of Faith beliefs, and only ever permitted One Church: today’s CC. This is further evidenced by Mt. 28: 16-20 "Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Knowing that Jesus advises all: **John.15: 16 “**You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.”

So that these selected men were granted EXTRODINARY powers ought not be surprising:
**Matt.10: 8 **“Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.”

God has at least since Moses used priest for necessary intercessors for the forgiveness of sin. That Christ extends and expands this practice in the NT too is to excepted and ACCEPTED.

Lev.4: 20,26, 31 “Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven. …] And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven. …And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a pleasing odor to the LORD; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven."

John.20: 19 to 23 "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. ***As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” *** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "**Receive the Holy Spirit. **If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

ALL of the following took place in this brief passage:
The First Pentecost
The Institution of the sacrament of Confirmation
The Formal institution of the RCC
The REAL transfure of God’s powers and authority to the Apostles and the CC
The sacrament of KNOWN forgiveness of sins.

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=benedictus2;8576905]Oh really. So therefore according to the Catholic Church the sacraments are totally unnecessary? Don’t you know that there is nothing in the Apostles Creed about the necesssity of baptism? So you are saying that the Church teaches that this is not necessary?

Baptism, Eucharist.

The Apostles Creed is not the be all and end all of the faith because not everything we believe in the Church is contained in it. This was formulated by the infant Church still trying to make sense of her mission, and her teachings.

The Creeds [there are two]; the Apostles and the Nicene. Little difference. Are a BRIEF, but accurate summation of many MAJOR Catholic [and for some Protestant faiths] beliefs. But not all. This in no way deminishes there real value and worth.

Gos Bless,
Pat

 

[wisdomseeker]

My dear freind in Christ,

If my implication or intent your message is that Confession of sin is unnecessary; you are sadly mistaken.

I’m confident that you can understand that no one part of the bible can [or does] contradict another passage. were this even the slightest possibility, the bible would have absolutely no value, no us, in teahing or learning ones faith.

In Matt. 15:18-19; Jesus chooses Peter to lead his One Faith, ONLY One set of Faith beliefs, and only ever permitted One Church: today’s CC. This is further evidenced by Mt. 28: 16-20 "Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Knowing that Jesus advises all: **John.15: 16 “**You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.”

So that these selected men were granted EXTRODINARY powers ought not be surprising:
**Matt.10: 8 **“Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.”

God has at least since Moses used priest for necessary intercessors for the forgiveness of sin. That Christ extends and expands this practice in the NT too is to excepted and ACCEPTED.

Lev.4: 20,26, 31 “Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven. …] And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven. …And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a pleasing odor to the LORD; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven."

John.20: 19 to 23 "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. ***As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” *** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "**Receive the Holy Spirit. **If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

ALL of the following took place in this brief passage:
The First Pentecost
The Institution of the sacrament of Confirmation
The Formal institution of the RCC
The REAL transfure of God’s powers and authority to the Apostles and the CC
The sacrament of KNOWN forgiveness of sins.

God Bless you,
Pat

This verse proves that is necessary. that is why I posted.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PJM,

I fear you are going further and further out on a limb. Let’s see if I can help you back…

The two creeds are similar but share a common origin - that of providing some of the elements of faith for the young Church. Here is a link: newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm. The creeds are accurate as far as they go - the trouble is, as Benedictus2 accurately pointed out, they do not go far enough. Surely you are not arguing that while the Sacrements have been omitted - they are not a most necessry foundation stone of Catholic Faith.

God bless

The Creeds [there are two]; the Apostles and the Nicene. Little difference. Are a BRIEF, but accurate summation of many MAJOR Catholic [and for some Protestant faiths] beliefs. But not all. This in no way deminishes there real value and worth.

Gos Bless,
Pat

 

[benedictus2]

The Creeds [there are two]; the Apostles and the Nicene. Little difference. Are a BRIEF, but accurate summation of many MAJOR Catholic [and for some Protestant faiths] beliefs. But not all. This in no way deminishes there real value and worth.

Gos Bless,
Pat

The Apostles Creed was an earlier creed and this is why it does not have the more theologically developed points highlighted in the Nicea-Contantinople Creed. This is because this was formulated prior to the heresies that rocked the Church.

I am not saying that they do not have any worth. I am just saying that the Creeds do not contain everything that is necessary about the the faith.

The Eucharist is the source and summit of our life and yet that is not in the creed.

The recitation of the Creed was common in the Eastern Church but not in the west. When Charlemagne asked the Pope why the creed was not recited in the west during Mass, it is said that the Pope replied that they didn’t have to because they have not fallen into heresy. Charlemagne thought it was a proper practice so the Pope agreed to have the Apostles Creed instead of the Nicene creed recited at Mass.

 

[TradionalWay]

All those that do not and cannot accept the Eucharist are not excommunicated just not properly Catechized. That includes Protestants, Muslims, Hindu’s etc.

They are not heretics if they do not know they embrace heresy. How can you be responsible for declaring to be something you do not know is false. Those baptized in the trinitarian formula are Christian, even if they deny this makes them a Christian, and I agree there are heretical baptisms, ie Mormons. Oneness Pentacostals are Modalists and deny the trinity and I believe they baptize in the name of Jesus only.

Hi, TraditionalWay,

Let me invite you back to post #539.

If you are going to maintain the position you have established for yourself, then I think you need to address how you reconcile it with the teachings of the Catholic Church which are the opposite.

God bless

I’m just following the traditional teachings of the catholic church… I’m sure all of the was made clear in the time of the council of Trent:thumbsup:

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TradionalWay,

How very interesting… You claim to be following the teachings of the Catholic Church but will not even engage in dialogue as to what the Church teaches. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (links previously given to you) is the binding authority for us Catholics.

Now I confess, I have only come across this once in my life - but, it certainly appears to me that your response would be consistent with the concern expressed by God in:

Exodus 32:9
Exodus 33:3
Deuteronomy 9:6
Deuteronomy 31:27
2 Chronicles 36:13
Jeremiah 17:23
Acts 7:51

In all of these instances, the Sacred Writers are identifying God’s People as ‘stiff-necked’ - unwilling to obey God’s Word. Such a demonstration is not the virtue of perseverance - rather it certainly appears to be willful disobedience.

Please discuss the material from the CCC that I and others have brought to you. To maintain your current position is not in keeping with the Church’s teaching - and disobedience is hardly the way to be considered the ‘Traditional Way’ in a positive sense.

God bless

I’m just following the traditional teachings of the catholic church… I’m sure all of the was made clear in the time of the council of Trent:thumbsup:

 

[PJM]

=jmoneyideas;8581684]Pat,
I find you insights very profound. Especially since reading your Blog for the past 2 Hours.

You ask a great question, I feel it is hard to say if they are truly informed. When I share some thing that contradicts the Protestant stance on things such as Saints or the Eucharist and Read the Scriptures that pertain to the subject such as in Revelations for “Saints” or any Last Supper passage that isn’t in only Lukes Gospel and read them Johns passages about the eating of the Flesh and Blood of Christ literally meaning such, they give me a perplexing look, its like these things are skipped over. Which leads me to another thing, if things are purposely skipped over than these Pastors that are teaching these things have better be prepared at Judgement because that will be Judged the most.

Anyways LOVE the Blog too… Lots and I mean lots of Scripture and reference material on it.

THANKS:blush:

I’ve given this matter a GREAT deal of thought. My conclusion is that to SOME degree it is God’s punishment to them for not even being logical.

NOT once in the entire bible does God EVER permit belief in more than One God; or more than HIS ONE SET OF FAITH BELIEFS, or ever more than JUST ONE Church organization

In order for well entended folks NOT to be able to grasp this simple reality shows that God has a hand in it [so does someone else].

But like Jesus Himself said: if there NOT against us; then they must be for us… Some things we are not meant to understand. I do pray daily for their souls, because many are doing what their own conscience tells them is right, and even feel that their conscience is correctly informed. God didn’t die and say “Pat your in charge” … he let Peter do it.

I’m grateful that God has to judge and does not allow us too.

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PJM,

Not to put too fine a point on it … but do you plan on resonding to post #560 from Benedictus2? I certainly hope so …

God bless

THANKS:blush:

I’ve given this matter a GREAT deal of thought. My conclusion is that to SOME degree it is God’s punishment to them for not even being logical.

NOT once in the entire bible does God EVER permit belief in more than One God; or more than HIS ONE SET OF FAITH BELIEFS, or ever more than JUST ONE Church organization

In order for well entended folks NOT to be able to grasp this simple reality shows that God has a hand in it [so does someone else].

But like Jesus Himself said: if there NOT against us; then they must be for us… Some things we are not meant to understand. I do pray daily for their souls, because many are doing what their own conscience tells them is right, and even feel that their conscience is correctly informed. God didn’t die and say “Pat your in charge” … he let Peter do it.

I’m grateful that God has to judge and does not allow us too.

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;8571429:

Perhaps the reason Satan choose priests as the object of derision for this movie instead of a protestant minister is that Satan is trying to undermine the Church that Christ, thru his disciples, set in place.

looks like people have it both ways .For it was insinuated that if you are not totally “together -in right church” you will be attacked as the demons did in scripture .But when he attacks catholic priests it is because they stand in truth .Don’t think scripture has shown where a person in Christ is attacked demonically in such fashion.
Anyways ,the scripture brought forth was to show demons attacked those outside of truth, hence the question of these priests being attacked may show they were not born again.Otherwise you are saying the gates of hell (her demons) can prevail over Christ in us.

 

[david_ruiz]

Heaven is about to be opened, by Jesus at his resurrection, which had been closed after the fall of Adam and Eve.

Well partly but the veil tore at the hour of His death .It has something to do with the living. We do not have to wait to die to be before His throne , the Holy of Holies.

I

David…that is fiction. The movie Exorcist, was actually based on real events. The child was a Lutheran, their pastor told the parents he could not help them, and directed them to seek the help of a catholic priest. My question to you is…why would a Lutheran pastor pass on it…and directed the family to the Catholic Church?

Don’t know about the Lutheran .This isn’t about my church is better than yours is it .All I am saying is maybe priests ,even the lutheran pastor were not born again.

I suggest you spend the time to watch it, especially pay attention to the last part (part 4)…which always gives me the chills.

Yes ,quite chilling. You know I had one of the priests as a teacher in high school .He is the one at the beginning, somewhere, playing the piano(small part). Fr. O’ Malley .Did all our high school plays. Quite gifted and loved . But, quite frankly I am not sure he is "born again " .We have different experience in Christ supposedly.

 

[david_ruiz]

Hi, David Ruiz,

St. Augustine is quoted as saying, “Love God and then do what you will”. This implies a genuine knowledge and love for God to keep the ‘…do what you will…’ part heading straight for God. This saintly Early Chruch Father (354-430) was truly a significant source of inspiration and insight into the Catholic Faith - but, as I tried to previously demonstrate, heretical beliefs came before Augustine and then came after him.

It isn’t that ‘new truths were added’ but, consider that Protestants only consider the Bible as the authoritive source for all information about God. Early in the revolt, Protestant leaders threw out the very concept of Sacred Tradition - they could not see it, so, it simply did not exist. Now, the fact that from 33AD when Christ ascended into Heaven until about 25 years later - not one word of the New Testament Canon was written - you just have to wonder how those early Catholics made it. Then we must advance to the year 100AD when the last word of the NT was written … and wonder what happened durng this period when the entire NT was not gathered together. The Message of Christ was carried forward by Sacred Tradition - and it continued to carry the Message to 400AD when the Canon of Scripture was approved. But, you know what, Sacred Tradition was not put on a shelf after that and replaced with the Bible. Catholics believe that both are quite necessary. We must be very clear about this - Sacred Tradition is not the traditions of men (like altar calls and statements like Faith Alone or Scripture Alone). The Holy Spirit is the Guiding Force behind Sacred Traditions.

I realize that it would have been a totally different process if Christ had not only founded His Chruch on Peter [Matt 16:18] (whose current successor is Benedict XVI) but had given Peter a clearly written Policy and Procedure Manual. But, you know what - God did not chose to operate His Church that way. And, really, that is the bottom line on that. Either one believes in not only the Church founded by Christ on Peter but also in the methodology God used to get us to this point in time.

God bless

Thank-you .From very early on the written word was a "boundary .“He that is learned in the ways of the lord do them ,as many as are written.” (120ad-church father) . “Learn to save a soul by the “Word””-church father 120 ad.By 200 much of bible was known to be “scripture”.

 

[david_ruiz]

Oh really. So therefore according to the Catholic Church the sacraments are totally unnecessary? Don’t you know that there is nothing in the Apostles Creed about the necesssity of baptism? So you are saying that the Church teaches that this is not necessary?

Baptism, Eucharist.

The Apostles Creed is not the be all and end all of the faith because not everything we believe in the Church is contained in it. This was formulated by the infant Church still trying to make sense of her mission, and her teachings.Yes and the formation of more continues … But thank -you for your honesty .It seems the early church was not so dogmatic .