Protestants, did Jesus Christ gave us a Church with authority?

[CatsAndDogs]

…just one question though …do you also pray for the “invincibly ignorant” ones or just for the “prideful” ones?

I pray for whomever needs praying for.

Why would I prefer one group over another? Though, the prideful, of which I am surely a member, have more culpability for their sins and are in more need of prayers.

:shamrock2:

 

[guanophore]

What is really absurd, is the belief that God’s eternal truth is being taught and adhered too by the Catholic church in the same manner as Jesus and His Apostles taught and commanded it to be.

If you believe this, why are you on CAF?

Sure you know guanophore – the catechism that has been posted repeatedly states it quite clearly – that by Catholic church teaching, Jesus’ One Body is composed of only members of the Catholic church –  believers “outside of the Catholic church” – are in an “imperfect communion” with the Catholic church….and therefore not in communion with Christ, or able to obtain salvation.

No, Leeann, that is not what it says. What motivates you to not only find it necessary to cling to your false beliefs, but to promulgate them here? What possible benefit can it bring to you and to others to cling to lies?

There is no doubt at all that Mary is Christ centered – it’s the Catholic church that isn’t Christ centered anymore.

So you have stated since your arrival. What do you intend to do about it? Is it your goal to come here and loudly shout that the emperor is naked? To what end?

As for God using Mary in His plan of salvation – that’s obvious – however not the essential or necessary part of the “gospel message” that Jesus told His Apostles to go out and preach/teach – that was all about **HIM**! Focus on **HIS** testimony!:thumbsup:

How do you account for the fact that they did this anyway?

And there is unity amongst all true believers in His gospel message…it’s in their belief in Him and His life/death/resurrection…etc…that’s the one thing that unites all Christians.

Indeed. This teaching came from the Catholic Church, and all of our separated brethren, to the extent that they accept and walk in this Catholic doctrine, are in unity with the Church that Jesus founded .

guanophore – I don't think I've hear of that, will you post them for me please…seriously….Thanks.

According to the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381), four marks of the Church are defined-- unity, sanctity, Catholicity, Apostolicity.

What makes you think that all of those “heresies” were actually defeated in the early centuries

Had they not been, the Church would have gone under in the first few hundred years. The reason the Council of Constantinople identified these marks is because there were so many communities that did not have them, just as we see cropping up today.

and that no new ones have either sprung up or “blossomed” over the centuries – into what the Catholic church teaches today?

The Head of the Church is Christ,a nd the soul of the Church is the HS. It is these divine elements of the Church that prevent her from falling into error.

Yes…as I’m sure the same would apply for you and everyone else…however I’m simply stating a fact as to what I believe, just as you and others in here do when you post:shrug: .

And what is your point? Why have you not opened your own anti-Catholic blog to spout your venom toward Catholicism? What is your goal in bringing it to us? What do you expect us to do?

I don’t “believe” that to be true, based on what the Catholic church actually teaches today.

This is your God given perogative. You have exercised it. Now what?

 

[guanophore]

I’m glad you mentioned the qualities of persons, which in the context above I think you mean “human beings” – the Apostles?
.
Surely the first requirement you list, that of being “discernment”, would not be from their own human understanding, as it was evident that in many cases they fell short, but it would be by the “discernment qualities” of the PERSON of the Holy Spirit that would be leading them.

The Holy Spirit inspired the “writing” of the scriptures and Jesus Himself is the living Word that the Apostles taught and preached and is evident from the scriptures of the O.T. – and N.T. the scriptures did indeed “discipline” the flock.

The person of God acts through the Holy Writings, but the writing itself cannot “discipline” because it has no will and cannot act. It is the Spirit, working through authority appointed by Christ that disciplines the Church.

That’s what I’ve been saying. That’s what I meant above….before.

After re-reading all our “quotes” and “answers” above – I’m not sure of what to post to this last sentence of yours about “not attributing qualities to scripture that they cannot exhibit”???

The Holy Spirit inspired all scripture that has been written, The Holy Spirit reaches, teaches and makes known God’s Will for all men through these scriptures.

What was the question again?

This happens through the teaching office appointed by Christ, or by interlopers who have gone out unauthorized, teaching the doctrines of men (or worse). The Scripture does not "teach "itself. A person is always involved.

 

[guanophore]

Is the “fullness of the truth” part of the pope who recently prayed to Mary to have “pity on the nations” and imploring her for help?

This link will direct you to an article about this… zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

This is a private devotion, and is not binding upon the faithful. We ask Mary for her intercession because God has done great things for her, and she wears army boots.

 

[Leeann]

Hi justasking4

Is the “fullness of the truth” part of the pope who recently prayed to Mary to have “pity on the nations” and imploring her for help?

This link will direct you to an article about this… zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

"We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart," the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

How sad that is to read.

If the Apostles were standing beside him, whom do you think they would have told him to turn too?
Mary…or Jesus?

Hebrews 4:V 14 - 16 (Duoay Rheims)

14 **Having therefore a great high priest ****that hath **passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: **let us hold fast our confession. **

**15 ****For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin. **

16** Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid. **

And if the Apostles heard him praying about the nations “repenting and returning to Mary’s heart”…what do you think **they **would have said to him?

Acts 2: V38-41(Duoay Rheims)

38 **But Peter said to them: Do penance,(repent) and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. **

39 **For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. **

40 And with very many other words did he testify and exhort them, saying: Save yourselves from this perverse generation.

41 They therefore that received his word, were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls.

**42 **And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

THIS is the “gospel message” of Jesus Christ - THIS is the “**doctrine” the Apostles **were sent out to teach as they established HIS church.

Mary is **never **mentioned or addressed.

What “gospel message” and “what doctrine” is that which was indicated by this Papal visit?

Another gospel?

 

[guanophore]

How sad that is to read.

If the Apostles were standing beside him, whom do you think they would have told him to turn too?
Mary…or Jesus?

Actually, I imagine that Mary did quite a bit to help the Apostles, and that they were quick to turn to her. I wouldn’t doubt that she fed them, mended their clothes, and maybe even ran errands for them. She is the handmaid of the Lord, and followed Him in complete service. I think your conception of “or” is erroneous. One cannot separate Mary from Christ.

**42 **And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

THIS is the “gospel message” of Jesus Christ - THIS is the “**doctrine” the Apostles **were sent out to teach as they established HIS church.

Mary is **never **mentioned or addressed.

What “gospel message” and “what doctrine” is that which was indicated by this Papal visit?

Another gospel?

One that separates Mary from Christ and the Apostles certainly would be. Have you not noted that she turns up in all the “memoirs of the Apostles”?

I think that separating and dividing is a particular fruit of the Reformation.

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
What is really absurd, is the belief that God’s eternal truth is being taught and adhered too by the Catholic church in the same manner as Jesus and His Apostles taught and commanded it to be.

Response guanophore: If you believe this, why are you on CAF?

Because a few of those I love have been caught up in some of the Marian dogmas that the Catholic church has been teaching and have gone overboard, really overboard – not what posters on here have posted to be the “norm” – although there are varied views within some of the Catholic posters themselves as to how they understand some of the dogmas – but it’s nothing close to what they actually believe, which has taken them away from the gospel message that Jesus and His Apostles taught, to a new gospel of “what Mary can do for them”….leaving Jesus incapable or unwilling to assist them unless they go through her to Him and leaving God the Father and The Holy Spirit sitting somewhere in the background…never mention Them.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Sure you know guanophore – the catechism that has been posted repeatedly states it quite clearly – that by Catholic church teaching, Jesus’ One Body is composed of only members of the Catholic church – believers “outside of the Catholic church” – are in an “imperfect communion” with the Catholic church….and therefore not in communion with Christ, or able to obtain salvation

Response guanophore:
No, Leeann, that is not what it says. What motivates you to not only find it necessary to cling to your false beliefs, but to promulgate them here? What possible benefit can it bring to you and to others to cling to lies?

It says what it says.
As to “promulgating” my beliefs…I’m answering and responding to either statements made or questions asked?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
There is no doubt at all that Mary is Christ centered – it’s the Catholic church that isn’t Christ centered anymore.

Response guanophores:
So you have stated since your arrival. What do you intend to do about it? Is it your goal to come here and loudly shout that the emperor is naked? To what end?

I have been responding to either a statement made or questions that were asked of me.
Isn’t that what one is supposed to do when asked a question?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Or for the need to believe and adhere to new doctrines/dogmas “attached” to that pure “gospel message”, that would in any way dilute or take the focus away from Him or the His blood sacrifice for all mankind. (Marian theology and dogmas).

Response guanophore:
Clearly you misunderstand the Catholic teaching. Mary, better than any other created being, counsels us over the centuries to “do whatever He tells you”. she is 100% Christ centered, and was “added” to His plan of salvation by God Himself, not by anything man has done. “The almighty God has done great things for me”. Listen to her testimony.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
As for God using Mary in His plan of salvation – that’s obvious – however not the essential or necessary part of the “gospel message” that Jesus told His Apostles to go out and preach/teach – that was all about HIM! Focus on HIS testimony!

Response guanophore:
How do you account for the fact that they did this anyway?

The Apostles were filled and lead by the Holy Spirit and **they obeyed what Jesus had commanded them to do **– preach/teach the true “gospel message” and baptize.

There was no mention of Mary’s significance/status or necessity in belief in any of her “dogmas” because they didn’t exist and were of no consequence **to what the true “gospel message” for the salvation of all mankind held. **The focus was directly on HIM and on HIS approachability and desire and sufficiency to be able to meet all our needs…all of them…from the beginning to the end.

guanophore:
According to the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381), four marks of the Church are defined-- unity, sanctity, Catholicity, Apostolicity.
Oh. I thought you said seven - are there another 3? Thanks.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
What makes you think that all of those “heresies” were actually defeated in the early centuries

Response guanophore:
Had they not been, the Church would have gone under in the first few hundred years. The reason the Council of Constantinople identified these marks is because there were so many communities that did not have them, just as we see cropping up today.

Or the church may have continued on – another possibility.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
and that no new ones have either sprung up or “blossomed” over the centuries – into what the Catholic church teaches today?

Response guanophore:
The Head of the Church is Christ,and the soul of the Church is the HS. It is these divine elements of the Church that prevent her from falling into error.

Leeann…twiddling her thumbs….looking at the ceiling….averting her eyes……attempting not to say the OBVIOUS.

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
Yes…as I’m sure the same would apply for you and everyone else…however I’m simply stating a fact as to what I believe, just as you and others in here do when you post .

Response guanophore:
And what is your point? Why have you not opened your own anti-Catholic blog to spout your venom toward Catholicism? What is your goal in bringing it to us? What do you expect us to do?

The thread/forum title reads: “Protestants, did Jesus Christ give us a Church with authority?"
I’m attempting to answer the question.

In fact, I’ve been caught up in other threads and the postings always eventually came around to this thread’s/forum’s title – to do with “authority of the Catholic church” and then they’d go off topic for ages. When the last thread was closed down, I decided to try and find one that would just deal with the “authority” topic right away and I came across this one.

I have never posted or responded with any “venomous” intentions.
I’ve attempted to post my responses as honestly and openly as I would expect from you.

Usually, if a persons perceives “venom” in another’s viewpoint that differs from their own, it’s an indication that they themselves are either extremely close minded or insecure….I don’t believe that you are either of those guanophore, but for the life of me, I can’t understand what other type of answers I can give in response to the topic question or in response to other statements made and questions asked?

Originally Posted by Leeann
I don’t “believe” that to be true, based on what the Catholic church actually teaches today.

Response guanophore:
This is your God given perogative. You have exercised it. Now what?

Thank you.
Nothing…I was obviously responding to a statement that was made to me.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I’m glad you mentioned the qualities of persons, which in the context above I think you mean “human beings” – the Apostles?
.
Surely the first requirement you list, that of being “discernment”, would not be from their own human understanding, as it was evident that in many cases they fell short, but it would be by the “discernment qualities” of the PERSON of the Holy Spirit that would be leading them.

The Holy Spirit inspired the “writing” of the scriptures and Jesus Himself is the living Word that the Apostles taught and preached and is evident from the scriptures of the O.T. – and N.T. the scriptures did indeed “discipline” the flock.

**Response guanophore: **
The person of God acts through the Holy Writings, but the writing itself cannot “discipline” because it has no will and cannot act. It is the Spirit, working through authority appointed by Christ that disciplines the Church.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
That’s what I’ve been saying. That’s what I meant above….before.

After re-reading all our “quotes” and “answers” above – I’m not sure of what to post to this last sentence of yours about “not attributing qualities to scripture that they cannot exhibit”???

The Holy Spirit inspired all scripture that has been written, The Holy Spirit reaches, teaches and makes known God’s Will for all men through these scriptures.

What was the question again?

Response guanophore:
This happens through the teaching office appointed by Christ, or by interlopers who have gone out unauthorized, teaching the doctrines of men (or worse). The Scripture does not "teach "itself. A person is always involved.

The most important “person” being the Holy Spirit.

---

 

[guanophore]

Because a few of those I love have been caught up in some of the Marian dogmas that the Catholic church has been teaching and have gone overboard, really overboard – not what posters on here have posted to be the “norm” – although there are varied views within some of the Catholic posters themselves as to how they understand some of the dogmas – but it’s nothing close to what they actually believe, which has taken them away from the gospel message that Jesus and His Apostles taught, to a new gospel of “what Mary can do for them”….leaving Jesus incapable or unwilling to assist them unless they go through her to Him and leaving God the Father and The Holy Spirit sitting somewhere in the background…never mention Them.

I am confused. You came to CAF because you have Catholic loved ones who have lost their focus of faith? How does coming here address that?

How do your persistent attacks on the Church with regard to all other matters help your friends?

It says what it says.
As to “promulgating” my beliefs…I’m answering and responding to either statements made or questions asked?

I don’t see how your anticatholic rhetoric here on CAF helps your loved ones.

I have been responding to either a statement made or questions that were asked of me.

Maybe you will consider going back and reviewing your initial posts on CAF. It may give you a little perspective on that.

Isn’t that what one is supposed to do when asked a question?

I still don’t see how it helps your lost loved ones.

The Apostles were filled and lead by the Holy Spirit and **they obeyed what Jesus had commanded them to do **– preach/teach the true “gospel message” and baptize.

There was no mention of Mary’s significance/status or necessity in belief in any of her “dogmas” because they didn’t exist and were of no consequence **to what the true “gospel message” for the salvation of all mankind held. **The focus was directly on HIM and on HIS approachability and desire and sufficiency to be able to meet all our needs…all of them…from the beginning to the end.

Well, I guess we read it differently.

Why does it bother you for people to have devotion to Mary? Why does the behavior of your loved ones disturb you? Don’t you think you can leave them in the hands of God? Do you feel somehow compelled to save them from idolatry?

Or the church may have continued on – another possibility.

Which presupposes that Jesus was a liar, or a weakling, and could not or would not keep His promises.

Leeann…twiddling her thumbs….looking at the ceiling….averting her eyes……attempting not to say the OBVIOUS.

Do you deny these things? If so, how can you call yourself a Christian? Do you not see these truths in the Holy Scripture?

 

[guanophore]

The thread/forum title reads: “Protestants, did Jesus Christ give us a Church with authority?"
I’m attempting to answer the question.

So, obviously, you are not just here because you are scandalized over the behavior of your loved ones. You are getting some other need met here, as this is your own personal investment for yourself, not for them.

This is also a thread you jumped into after several other threads where you had spouted your hostility toward the Catholic Church.

In fact, I’ve been caught up in other threads and the postings always eventually came around to this thread’s/forum’s title – to do with “authority of the Catholic church” and then they’d go off topic for ages. When the last thread was closed down, I decided to try and find one that would just deal with the “authority” topic right away and I came across this one.

I agree with you. Most objections of Protestants are rooted in the issue of defiance against the authority appointed by Christ. This is the particular fruit of the reformation, after all.

I have never posted or responded with any “venomous” intentions.
I’ve attempted to post my responses as honestly and openly as I would expect from you.

What has been opened is your condescending attitude and disrespect for Catholicism.

Usually, if a persons perceives “venom” in another’s viewpoint that differs from their own, it’s an indication that they themselves are either extremely close minded or insecure….I don’t believe that you are either of those guanophore, but for the life of me, I can’t understand what other type of answers I can give in response to the topic question or in response to other statements made and questions asked?

I will err on the side that you do not realize how hurtful and false your comments are, and their wounding effects.

Thank you.
Nothing…I was obviously responding to a statement that was made to me.

Have your needs not been met? Why are you still here, given the convictions you have?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
How sad that is to read.

If the Apostles were standing beside him, whom do you think they would have told him to turn too?
Mary…or Jesus?

Response guanophore: Actually, I imagine that Mary did quite a bit to help the Apostles, and that they were quick to turn to her. I wouldn’t doubt that she fed them, mended their clothes, and maybe even ran errands for them. She is the handmaid of the Lord, and followed Him in complete service. I think your conception of “or” is erroneous. One cannot separate Mary from Christ.

I know that they loved her very much and that Mary did indeed do all of those things you mentioned above, not only out of her desire to serve her Lord, but also with her motherly instincts kicking in for her son and for his friends.

You didn’t respond to the actual question I asked above guanophore.

If the Apostles were standing beside the Pope on the day he prayed that prayer, whom do you think they would have told him to turn too when he stated **in his prayer to Mary **:
"If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

Would they point him to Mary….or Jesus?

Hebrews 4:V 14 - 16 (Duoay Rheims)

14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession.

15 For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.

16 Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

**THIS **is the “gospel message” of Jesus Christ - THIS is the “doctrine” the Apostles were sent out to teach as they established HIS church.

Mary is never mentioned or addressed.

What “gospel message” and “what doctrine” is that which was indicated by this Papal visit?

Another gospel?

Response guanophore:
One that separates Mary from Christ and the Apostles certainly would be.

Well, I am sorry, but that’s just the way it is.

Can you point out anywhere in the “gospel message” that John the Baptist preached and that Jesus himself preached and that the Apostles preached……where Mary was mentioned?

The “gospel message” that was preached and taught by the Apostles was about Jesus’ blood
sacrifice for mankind and the hope of salvation by believing on that “gospel message.

The gospels…the books I mean…don’t separate Mary from Christ and the Apostles, they mention her and what role she played and the importance of that role. They also mention Jesus and the role He played and the importance of His role and the significance HIS role is clearly visible as to who our focus and trust and faith should be in…Jesus.

guanophore:
Have you not noted that she turns up in all the “memoirs of the Apostles”?

Were the “memoirs of the Apostles” part of the “gospel message” that Jesus commissioned them to go out and preach and teach??

guanophore:
I think that separating and dividing is a particular fruit of the Reformation.

Perhaps His “truth” is also part of it.

I think that separating and dividing is a particular fruit of the Reformation.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Because a few of those I love have been caught up in some of the Marian dogmas that the Catholic church has been teaching and have gone overboard, really overboard – not what posters on here have posted to be the “norm” – although there are varied views within some of the Catholic posters themselves as to how they understand some of the dogmas – but it’s nothing close to what they actually believe, which has taken them away from the gospel message that Jesus and His Apostles taught, to a new gospel of “what Mary can do for them”….leaving Jesus incapable or unwilling to assist them unless they go through her to Him and leaving God the Father and The Holy Spirit sitting somewhere in the background…never mention Them.

**guanophore:**I am confused. You came to CAF because you have Catholic loved ones who have lost their focus of faith? How does coming here address that?

From above quote:
"….have gone overboard, really overboard – not what posters on here have posted to be the “norm” – "
I’ve learned a great deal from the various posters as to why and what and how they believe, which may help me understand and be able to bring back my friends’ focus of faith.

guanophore:
How do your persistent attacks on the Church with regard to all other matters help your friends?

Response Leeann:
What you perceive as my “persistent attacks” on the church – are my responses to statements or questions that have been asked.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
It says what it says.
As to “promulgating” my beliefs…I’m answering and responding to either statements made or questions asked?

guanophore:
I don’t see how your anticatholic rhetoric here on CAF helps your loved ones.

guanophore – you see what you want to see.

Originally Posted by Leeann
I have been responding to either a statement made or questions that were asked of me.

guanophore:
Maybe you will consider going back and reviewing your initial posts on CAF. It may give you a little perspective on that.

We’d all benefit by going back and reviewing our initial posts I’m sure.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Isn’t that what one is supposed to do when asked a question?

guanophore:
I still don’t see how it helps your lost loved ones.

No I know you don’t…you’ve stated that already.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
The Apostles were filled and lead by the Holy Spirit and they obeyed what Jesus had commanded them to do – preach/teach the true “gospel message” and baptize.

There was no mention of Mary’s significance/status or necessity in belief in any of her “dogmas” because they didn’t exist and were of no consequence to what the true “gospel message” for the salvation of all mankind held. The focus was directly on HIM and on HIS approachability and desire and sufficiency to be able to meet all our needs…all of them…from the beginning to the end.

guanophore:
Well, I guess we read it differently.

For your sakes I sincerely hope not.

guanophore:
Why does it bother you for people to have devotion to Mary? Why does the behavior of your loved ones disturb you? Don’t you think you can leave them in the hands of God? Do you feel somehow compelled to save them from idolatry?

Should I be answering these questions now guanophore?
Is it “safe”?
I’ve already stated why it concerns me with type of devotion that some people afford to Mary

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Or the church may have continued on – another possibility.

guanophore:
Which presupposes that Jesus was a liar, or a weakling, and could not or would not keep His promises.

Assuming that Jesus made His promises to what you consider to be His church

original quote guanophore:
The Head of the Church is Christ, and the soul of the Church is the HS. It is these divine elements of the Church that prevent her from falling into error.

Originally Posted by Leeann
Leeann…twiddling her thumbs….looking at the ceiling….averting her eyes……attempting not to say the OBVIOUS.

Response guanophore:
Do you deny these things? If so, how can you call yourself a Christian? Do you not see these truths in the Holy Scripture?

Yes….as pertaining to the Catholic church if that is what you mean by “Church”.
Quite easily…as I don’t have to believe them, I’m not a member of the Catholic church.
No.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
The thread/forum title reads: “Protestants, did Jesus Christ give us a Church with authority?"
I’m attempting to answer the question.

guanophore:
So, obviously, you are not just here because you are scandalized over the behavior of your loved ones. You are getting some other need met here, as this is your own personal investment for yourself, not for them.

“The thread/forum title reads: “Protestants, did Jesus Christ give us a Church with authority?"
I’m attempting to answer the question.

In fact, I’ve been caught up in other threads and the postings always eventually came around to this thread’s/forum’s title – to do with “authority of the Catholic church” and then they’d go off topic for ages. When the last thread was closed down, I decided to try and find one that would just deal with the “authority” topic right away and I came across this one.”
Those “other threads” were relating to Mary – and as you can see from the complete posting above – how it always came back to the “authority of the Catholic church”.

guanophore:
This is also a thread you jumped into after several other threads where you had spouted your hostility toward the Catholic Church.

See above post…again…

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
In fact, I’ve been caught up in other threads and the postings always eventually came around to this thread’s/forum’s title – to do with “authority of the Catholic church” and then they’d go off topic for ages. When the last thread was closed down, I decided to try and find one that would just deal with the “authority” topic right away and I came across this one.

guanophore:
I agree with you. Most objections of Protestants are rooted in the issue of defiance against the authority appointed by Christ. This is the particular fruit of the reformation, after all.

Perhaps with good reason.

Originally Posted by Leeann **
I have never posted or responded with any “venomous” intentions.
I’ve attempted to post my responses as honestly and openly as I would expect from you
**
guanophore:
What has been opened is your condescending attitude and disrespect for Catholicism.

And you haven’t let me down either guanophore…just as I expected.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Thank you.
Nothing…I was obviously responding to a statement that was made to me.

guanophore:
Have your needs not been met? Why are you still here, given the convictions you have?

Well, you know what…I think as of finishing this post…you’ve whetted my appetite in other areas now…such a reaction is interesting…and while I still lay claim to my original convictions as to why I came into the CAF, I think you’ve actually peaked my interest to delve even further into why and how Catholics believe the things they do.

One of my first questions would be -why is there a topic thread – in the Non-Catholic area - with a title such as:
“Protestants, did Jesus Christ give a church with authority?” – if no one is allowed to come in and respond to the question asked as honestly and openly as they can (*and respond “in kind” at *times)…especially when all other areas will eventually lead back to the question of authority anyway…saving time in other threads that just go off topic?

 

[ChristianKnight]

I think Jesus Christ gave us faith, not a church, not a organization, a belief. I like that many of the people in the RCC/CC are devoted, but so are many in the SBA, and other “Protestant” churches.

I do not think I have to be in a certain eh, I guess “church”, I want to say organization cause I use that word a lot in my ag classes, but I think if you have faith, and try your best to commit to a life for the Trinity, you go to heaven, no matter who says otherwise.

 

[guanophore]

If the Apostles were standing beside the Pope on the day he prayed that prayer, whom do you think they would have told him to turn too when he stated **in his prayer to Mary **:
"If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

Would they point him to Mary….or Jesus?

I thought I answered this. They are not separated. Mary is “in Christ”. She eternally says to us “Do whatever He tells you”. You misperceived and “either/or” where none exists. She is as much with HIm now as she was when her Divine Son was on her lap, and the Magi knelt before Him. Mary is totally the handmaid of the Lord,and has given her whole being over to His service. There is no part of her that is not completely inclined to His perfect will.

**Hebrews 4:V 14 - 16 (Duoay Rheims)**

14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession.

15 For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.

16 Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid.

It seems like maybe you believe that our recourse to Mary is based on something other than the perfect priesthood of Jesus. It is because of what He has done for us that we are able to effectively intercede for one another.

Well, I am sorry, but that’s just the way it is.

Are you tellling me that you believe in a gospel that separates Mary and the Apostles from Christ?

Can you point out anywhere in the “gospel message” that John the Baptist preached and that Jesus himself preached and that the Apostles preached……where Mary was mentioned?

If you are unwilling to accept what God has caused to be breathed into the inspired - inerrant Holy Scripture, I dont’ think there is anything I can do that will help you there.

The “gospel message” that was preached and taught by the Apostles was about Jesus’ blood
sacrifice for mankind and the hope of salvation by believing on that “gospel message.

Yes. Somehow you seem to believe that this message is separated from Mary, even though it is Written that she was an integral part of it. The blood He shed on the cross came from her.
God wanted it that way.

The gospels…the books I mean…don’t separate Mary from Christ and the Apostles, they mention her and what role she played and the importance of that role. They also mention Jesus and the role He played and the importance of His role and the significance HIS role is clearly visible as to who our focus and trust and faith should be in…Jesus.

Yes. Somehow your faith in Jesus is too small to accomodate those that He chose to include in it.
"guanophore:

Have you not noted that she turns up in all the “memoirs of the Apostles”?

Were the “memoirs of the Apostles” part of the “gospel message” that Jesus commissioned them to go out and preach and teach??

These are the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. These God -breathed books testify to the Good News taught by Jesus and the Apostles. If you wish to reduce teh “gospel message” to some sort of readers’ digest version that excludes the remainder of the testimony, this is your perogative. If your faith is so small that you cannot include in your heart those that were close to the heart of Jesus, I guess you have to do what you have to do.

I also understand why you are resistant to allow anyone else into the story, since you have, according to your own account, observed loved ones who you think have lost focus on Christ. It seems that this has severely grieved your heart, as you maybe would like to believe that they desire to fervently seek God,and have gotten off track. Perhaps you believe if they would shut everyone else out of the story their faith would be more pure?

guanophore:

I think that separating and dividing is a particular fruit of the Reformation.

Perhaps His “truth” is also part of it.

No doubt some of the truth taught by Jesus and the Apostles has survived the reformation. All the reformers venerated Mary, but the more separating and dividing takes place, the more we see people such as yourself who find a need to exclude parts of the gospel in order to eliminate the part of the message that causes discomfort.

 

[guanophore]

“The thread/forum title reads: “Protestants, did Jesus Christ give us a Church with authority?"
I’m attempting to answer the question.

Actually, it often seems that you are taking advantage of opportunities to disparage the Catholic Church.

In fact, I’ve been caught up in other threads and the postings always eventually came around to this thread’s/forum’s title – to do with “authority of the Catholic church” and then they’d go off topic for ages. When the last thread was closed down, I decided to try and find one that would just deal with the “authority” topic right away and I came across this one.”

It does always seem to come down to this.

Those “other threads” were relating to Mary – and as you can see from the complete posting above – how it always came back to the “authority of the Catholic church”.

Yes.
"guanophore:

This is also a thread you jumped into after several other threads where you had spouted your hostility toward the Catholic Church.

See above post…again…

Yes, your hostility toward the Church is evident in most of your posts.

Perhaps with good reason.

No, there is no good reason to rebel against the authority that was appointed by Christ.

And you haven’t let me down either guanophore…just as I expected.

Your previous post implies that you exptected honesty and forthrightness. Does this mean that I have rightly assessed your condescending attitude toward the Catholic Church, or did I miss the mark?

Well, you know what…I think as of finishing this post…you’ve whetted my appetite in other areas now…such a reaction is interesting…and while I still lay claim to my original convictions as to why I came into the CAF, I think you’ve actually peaked my interest to delve even further into why and how Catholics believe the things they do.

If you really wish to do this, I think you are in the right place.

One of my first questions would be -why is there a topic thread – in the Non-Catholic area - with a title such as:
“Protestants, did Jesus Christ give a church with authority?” – if no one is allowed to come in and respond to the question asked as honestly and openly as they can (*and respond “in kind” at *times)…especially when all other areas will eventually lead back to the question of authority anyway…saving time in other threads that just go off topic?

I was not critiqing anyone’s valid response to the thread. I was observing your hostile attitude in the process.

I am going to attach another response to yours, since this one seems close to your perceptions also.

I think Jesus Christ gave us faith, not a church, not a organization, a belief. I like that many of the people in the RCC/CC are devoted, but so are many in the SBA, and other “Protestant” churches.

If faith is from Christ, why does He often say YOUR faith has saved you?

Why did He say “on this rock I will build my Church”?

Why does the Bible say there is only one church?

I do not think I have to be in a certain eh, I guess “church”, I want to say organization cause I use that word a lot in my ag classes, but I think if you have faith, and try your best to commit to a life for the Trinity, you go to heaven, no matter who says otherwise.

This is not consistent with what Scripture states we must do to be saved.

 

[guanophore]

"….have gone overboard, really overboard – not what posters on here have posted to be the “norm” – I’ve learned a great deal from the various posters as to why and what and how they believe, which may help me understand and be able to bring back my friends’ focus of faith.

Ok, so being here has given you a clearer understanding about what Catholics believe (or are supposed to believe) and you believe you can use this to help your loved ones. Has this worked? Have you rescued them from what you perceive as idolatry?

**Response Leeann:**

What you perceive as my “persistent attacks” on the church – are my responses to statements or questions that have been asked.

Yes. your hostility and bigotry comes through clearly.

guanophore – you see what you want to see.

Indeed not! I have found the reading of your posts to be quite a painful and sad experience. What I want to see is for you to let go of that anti-Catholic hate.

We’d all benefit by going back and reviewing our initial posts I’m sure.

Does this mean you will do so? Are you willing to see yourself as others see you?

No I know you don’t…you’ve stated that already.:shrug:

Help me out then. Explain how you anti-Catholic rhetoric and condescention help your loved ones.

For your sakes I sincerely hope not.

You seem to think that, if Catholics understand the scriptures differently than you, we are missing the mark.

Assuming that Jesus made His promises to what you consider to be His church

Jesus only founded ONE CHURCH Leeann. All the promises He made to that ONE CHURCH.

Eph 5:25-31
" Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way, husbands should love their wives as they do their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hates his own body, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 because we are members of his body."

Jesus loved His Bride so much that He gave up His life for Her, and presented her to Himself in perfect purity. The purity of the church comes from Christ. You have erroneously ascribed the shortcomings if sinful members of the Body to Christ. You have impugned the one whom he nourishes and tenderly cares for with their failings.

Should I be answering these questions now guanophore?
Is it “safe”?

I have found your answers here, although cynical, not as disparaging as most, so I would say that you are on safer ground. It is always dangerous to disparage that which belongs to God, but even more, that Holy Bride that He loved so much He gave up His life for her.

Yes….as pertaining to the Catholic church if that is what you mean by “Church”.  Quite easily…as I don’t have to believe them, I’m not a member of the Catholic church.

No.

He only founded ONE CHURCH Leeann. His promises were made to the ONE BRIDE.

Eph 4:5-6
“one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.”

I realize that you do not recognize the large tree that has sprouted from the tiny mustard seed, but I think if you will allow yourself to look, you will be able to find His Holy Bride.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

If the Apostles were standing beside the Pope on the day he prayed that prayer, whom do you think they would have told him to turn too when he stated **in his prayer to Mary **:
“If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

Would they point him to Mary….or Jesus?

Response guanophore:
I thought I answered this. They are not separated. Mary is “in Christ”. She eternally says to us “Do whatever He tells you”. You misperceived and “either/or” where none exists. She is as much with HIm now as she was when her Divine Son was on her lap, and the Magi knelt before Him. Mary is totally the handmaid of the Lord,and has given her whole being over to His service. There is no part of her that is not completely inclined to His perfect will.

I understand what you are saying above, however that does not address the question posted.
The Pope is **directly praying to Mary **– claiming that “we will not know to whom to turn”.

Indicating two things.

**One **– He *has already separated *Mary from Jesus, as He is praying to her, directly, and **Two **– He is totally unaware that Jesus is approachable and willing and able to hear and help him (us) in times of need…as he states as he prays to her – “we will not know to whom to turn”.

That portion in itself also indicates that the Pope does see and treat Mary separately from Jesus, as he precedes that by saying that he considers to be under “her” protection.

That is why I ask – would the Apostles have stood beside him and having heard this, kept silent – or would they instruct him, in his despair and time of need to “hang up” and “call direct” to the one that they know can handle all things?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

Hebrews 4:V 14 - 16 (Duoay Rheims)

14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession.

15 For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.

16 Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid.

Response guanophore:
It seems like maybe you believe that our recourse to Mary is based on something other than the perfect priesthood of Jesus. It is because of what He has done for us that we are able to effectively intercede for one another.
It is because of what He has done for us, **that we are able to go directly to HIM **and through HIM know with confidence that all our needs and requests will be heard and addressed according to His will.

guanophore:
Are you tellling me that you believe in a gospel that separates Mary and the Apostles from Christ?

Response Leeann:
I’m telling you that the “gospel message” that Jesus and the Apostles taught and preached for the salvation of all mankind, puts forth what is necessary for their salvation and **what they must **believe in. That was their doctrine – no Marian dogmas that people must believe in.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
The “gospel message” that was preached and taught by the Apostles was about Jesus’ blood
sacrifice for mankind and the hope of salvation by believing on that “gospel message.

Response guanophore:
Yes. Somehow you seem to believe that this message is separated from Mary, even though it is Written that she was an integral part of it. The blood He shed on the cross came from her.
God wanted it that way.

But the “gospel message”, that Jesus and the Apostles preached and taught, doesn’t say anything about it being **Mary’s blood **that was shed on the cross for the salvation of all mankind and **that belief in her **and **by obedience to her **and **by her blood **we are washed and made whiter than snow.

If that was to be included and a necessary part of the “gospel message” and incorporated into the doctrines of His church, He would have made mention of it during the last supper and say,
“do this in remembrance of Me and my Holy, virgin mother Mary”.
especially seeing how much he loved and respected her and wanted her to be remembered and honored **to the point she **is today, within the Catholic church.

But He didn’t do that.

 

[guanophore]

The Pope is **directly praying to Mary **– claiming that “**we will not know to whom to turn”.**

That is not what he means. Jesus is Peace itself, the Prince of Peace. This is why Mary is called Queen of Peace. Her desire for peace on earth is an expression of His. Everything about Mary flows from Christ. We, too, are to be peacemakers.
Leeann;4337961:

Indicating two things.

**One **

– He *has already separated *Mary from Jesus, as He is praying to her, directly, and **Two **– He is totally unaware that Jesus is approachable and willing and able to hear and help him (us) in times of need…as he states as he prays to her – “we will not know to whom to turn”.

No, on both counts.

That portion in itself also indicates that the Pope does see and treat Mary separately from Jesus, as he precedes that by saying that he considers to be under “her” protection.

Mary can do nothing without Jesus. If she intercedes on our behalf, it is because Jesus allows her to do this for us, just as He allowed her to intercede at the wedding in Cana. He enjoys doing favors for her. She is His mother!

That is why I ask – would the Apostles have stood beside him and having heard this, kept silent – or would they instruct him, in his despair and time of need to “hang up” and “call direct” to the one that they know

can handle all things?

I am confident that the Pope was standing amidst the Apostles when he prayed this prayer. We believe that we are surrounded by the great cloud of witnesses.

It is because of what He has done for us, **that we are able to go directly to HIM **and through HIM know with confidence that all our needs and requests will be heard and addressed according to His will.

Yes.

It is this confidence that Mary expresses at the wedding. She has complete confidence that He will fix the problem. She does not know how, but that does not matter to her. She tells the servants “do whatever He tells you”, because after years of practice, she had learned this.
"guanophore:

Are you tellling me that you believe in a gospel that separates Mary and the Apostles from Christ?

I’m telling you that the “gospel message” that Jesus and the Apostles taught and preached for the salvation of all mankind, puts forth what is necessary for their salvation and **what they must **believe in. That was their doctrine – no Marian dogmas that people must believe in.

Ok. Those who have received the faith of the Apostles have not found it necessary to take this out.

But the “gospel message”, that Jesus and the Apostles preached and taught, doesn’t say anything about it being **Mary’s blood **that was shed on the cross for the salvation of all mankind and **that belief in her **and **by obedience to her **and **by her blood **we are washed and made whiter than snow.

No, because it was not. Mary gave Him blood in her womb. And Jesus was obedient to her. He chose to become her child and to grow up with her, then she stood at the foot of the cross while He shed his blood for the life of the world. She is not separated from any of it.

If that was to be included and a necessary part of the “gospel message” and incorporated into the doctrines of His church, He would have made mention of it during the last supper and say,
“do this in remembrance of Me and my Holy, virgin mother Mary”.
especially seeing how much he loved and respected her and wanted her to be remembered and honored **to the point she **is today, within the Catholic church.

But He didn’t do that.

This is some sort of artificial imposition that you have created. You are welcome to truncate the Apostolic message as much as you wish. It is this activity that gives Catholics rise to say we posess the fullness of the faith. We have not cut it down to the readers digest version. If God had not thought it important, the role of Mary would not have been included in the HOly Scripture. We consider the whole of the Apostolic faith the “gospel”, not just a few lines.