Protestants shouldn't upset me -- right?

[EENS]

NO, I quoted three infallible councils. I then quoted FALLIBLE sources, as you did. Nothing you quoted (or to which you referred) is infallible. Therefore, to combat your fallible sources, I presented many more fallible sources, yet all the time remembering the three infallible sources that we cannot reject or be condmened to Hell with those outside the Church.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Saint Robert Bellarmine (died A.D. 1621): “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed]
we join together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins’…For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church.” (De Sacramento Baptismi)

This is not an all-inclusive list… this is what the Church teaches!

Do not base your belief on one fallible document. It is easy to believe that everyone goes to Heaven and classify everyone as “no fault of their own.” Nevertheless, this is NOT the case. We MUST be Catholic to be saved. God bless.

I believe you are making a judgement on who is saved and who is not. You really should leave that judgement up to Jesus Christ when we all come before Him. I think there are going to be many surprises when that day comes. Just because you are catholic doesnt mean you are saved.,and Ill say the same for those of all christian denominations.

 

[EENS]

Southernrich:

How about the Declaration of the Assumption of Mary? Cite the passage from this infallible declaration that says that one must be Catholic.

You are speaking utter, utter nonsense.

I said that none state that there are exceptions to being Catholic. I *didn’t *say that EVERY declaration states you have to be Catholic. God bless.

 

[fix]

The Catholic Church specifically teaches that one does not have to be a professed member of the Catholic Church to be saved.
Well, a baptized non Catholic person does have some tie to the mystical body of Christ. That does not mean they do not need to be evangelized or will be saved. Yes, it is possible that they could be saved, but it is not as certain as a Catholic who dies in a state of grace.

 

[EENS]

SPOKENWORD:

I believe you are making a judgement on who is saved and who is not. You really should leave that judgement up to Jesus Christ when we all come before Him. I think there are going to be many surprises when that day comes. Just because you are catholic doesnt mean you are saved.,and Ill say the same for those of all christian denominations.

No, I make no such judgment. I quote the Church. The Church can judge all things. The Church says we must be baptised to be saved; we must be Catholic to be saved; we must be in a state of grace to be saved. Those are “judgments” on salvation. The Church can make these judgments. We must follow these judgments. If one does the above, he will be saved (note that he is in a state of grace). Not all Catholics are in a state of grace, yet NO non-Catholic is. God bless. For example, read the following:

"Whoever is separated from the Catholic Church, however praiseworthy his life may be in his own opinion, he shall for this single reason: that he is at the same time separated from the unity of Christ, not see life, but the wrath of God shall abideth on him. In the Catholic Church, there are both good and bad, but those who are separated from her cannot be good. For, though the conversation of some of them appears commendable, their very separation from the Church makes them bad according to Our Savior: ‘He who is not with Me, is against Me.’ " St. Augustine

Who are we to claim to know more than St. Augustine?

 

[EENS]

The Catholic Church specifically teaches that one does not have to be a professed member of the Catholic Church to be saved.
Well, a baptized non Catholic person does have some tie to the mystical body of Christ. That does not mean they do not need to be evangelized or will be saved. Yes, it is possible that they could be saved, but it is not as certain as a Catholic who dies in a state of grace.

What infallible declaration of the Church states that one who is not Catholic can be in a state of grace? What infallible declaration of the Church states that non-Catholics can be saved? God bless.

 

[Mandi]

I hate to state the obvious but what I just read sounds like 2 different churches one before Vatican II and a different one after Vatican II. I say there is some serious confilict there! Which one or group of councils are right!

 

[Southernrich]

Absent some credentials as a scholar or theologian that might lend veracity to your claims, your opinion is just that.

As has been said, even Satan can quote Scripture to his own ends. And certainly any layman can do as much.

 

[EENS]

Southernrich, you cannot even put one infallible quote here. Your wit seems to outstretch your credibility. God bless.

 

[yves]

Thank you, but can’t we take the argument down a notch? There’s another thread about salvation running. Did you see it?

I wasn’t trying to start an argument. Generally, I don’t have a problem with people who are different from me or whose opinions differ from mine. I certainly don’t hate Protestants. But some of their ideas hurt. How should I deal with the hurt? And why does it hurt? That’s what I’m trying to figure out.

 

[Calvin]

EENS:

Southernrich, you cannot even put one infallible quote here. Your wit seems to outstretch your credibility. God bless.

I thought* Dominus Iesus* was infallible:

With the expression subsists in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”, that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church. But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”…

*On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery, are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church. Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church… Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. **For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation **which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church. *

-C

 

[EENS]

No, Encyclicals in themselves are not infallible…if that were the case, that directly contradicts most of what I quoted from Popes throughout history. Encyclicals can re-present what has already been stated infallibly (as John Paul II has done when he writes considering the Eucharist, which is defined infallibly). However, only Papal Bulls and Ecumenical Councils are of themselves infallible (unless otherwise stated). For example, Vat I stated that all ecumenical councils are infallible (meaning Vat I and those before). Nevertheless, John XXIII and Paul VI both stated that Vatican II was fallible because it dealt not at all with doctrine but with a presentation thereof or a “pastoral” matter, as it were. God bless.

By the way, Dominus Iesus does not contradict outright Church teaching.

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

EENS, it is the Church’s job to interpret its own teachings, and it has made it clear for centuries that one need not actually be Catholic to be saved. One need think only of the medieval doctrine (held and taught by Thomas) of invicible ignorance to recognize that. You know what they say about a text without a context…

BTW, neither John XXIII nor Paul VI said that Vatican II was fallible… there is no text which so indicates this.

 

[Calvin]

EENS:

No, Encyclicals in themselves are not infallible…if that were the case, that directly contradicts most of what I quoted from Popes throughout history.

By the way, Dominus Iesus does not contradict outright Church teaching.

I’m confused.

Your first sentence says DI contradicts most of what you posted. Your last sentence says DI does not contradict outright Church teachings.

Do you think Pope John Paul II contradicted Church teaching in DI?

-C

 

[James0235]

Excellent, excellent thread!

Now, someone correct me if I am wrong but has not the Church’s teaching on invincible ignorance often been seen as the only possible exception to the absolute requirement that one must be Catholic to obtain salvation?

And even then were we not forbidden from further speculating about such things?

James

 

[yves]

yves:

Fellow Forum Posters,

I have to hastily beat down a fierce combination of sadness and anger that leaps inside me.

EENS, thank you for the insight you sent me on another thread. I agree that protestantism is heretical. You’re right, I can feel angry or even hate heresies. I do not and must not hate heretics, but I can feel sad for them. I feel sad because I can and do love them. That’s why I feel both sadness and anger.

Okay, now that I understand that (I think,) what do I do next? Charles, you offered good advice and I do defend our faith to the best of my ability, which is growing.

But I think I need a manual of advice . . .

Thank you! God bless.

 

[James0235]

Chris Burgwald:

BTW, neither John XXIII nor Paul VI said that Vatican II was fallible… there is no text which so indicates this.

Pope John XXIII specifically stated that the Council was to be Patoral. No dogma was defined. Therefore it cannot be a Dogmatic Council. Dogma may have been restated in the documents of the Council but none was defined. Even the Dogmatic Constitutions defined no Dogma and are not infallible.

James

 

[EENS]

Calvin:

I’m confused.

Your first sentence says DI contradicts most of what you posted. Your last sentence says DI does not contradict outright Church teachings.

Do you think Pope John Paul II contradicted Church teaching in DI?

-C

I meant that if DI is interpretted to mean that non-Catholics can be saved it contradics what I posted; however, it does not actually say that. God bless. BTW, a NO Priest I know said that the best way to reconcile modern documents, such as this, with the infallible Tradition of the Church is to simply understand that if any document were to say “non-Catholics, too, can be saved,” or the like, is to say that they can be saved, IF THEY BECOME CATHOLIC. God bless.

 

[David_F]

yves:

yves:

Fellow Forum Posters,

I have to hastily beat down a fierce combination of sadness and anger that leaps inside me.

EENS, thank you for the insight you sent me on another thread. I agree that protestantism is heretical. You’re right, I can feel angry or even hate heresies. I do not and must not hate heretics, but I can feel sad for them. I feel sad because I can and do love them. That’s why I feel both sadness and anger.

Okay, now that I understand that (I think,) what do I do next? Charles, you offered good advice and I do defend our faith to the best of my ability, which is growing.

But I think I need a manual of advice . . .

Thank you! God bless.

Looks like your thread has been hijacked yves. Sorry about that.

Your question seems to center on how to deal with taking a non-Catholic’s criticism personally. Is this correct? If so, have you posed this question to your pastor?

I know what you feel, because if I am going to be honest with you, I feel that pain as well when I feel the Church is being criticized. Over the years, that pain will go away when you grow in your relationship with Christ. As was suggested earlier, pray for love and understanding. Pray for peace in your hearts and for those who you come into contact with. Earnestly seek this love for ALL Christians and God will give it to you. For me, I am learning to distance my personal feelings more and instead, learning to see Christ in our Protestant brethren. This has helped and will help in our dialog between each other.

Lord give yves, the peace of mind and heart she seeks and the wisdom to understand Your will. Show her that You are present in everyone she meets throughout her day. Teach her to be patient with others but persistent with her witnessing. Jesus, I trust in you. We ask these things through Christ Our Lord, Amen.

Peace be with you Yves,
david

 

[Calvin]

EENS:

I meant that if DI is interpretted to mean that non-Catholics can be saved it contradics what I posted; however, it does not actually say that. God bless. BTW, a NO Priest I know said that the best way to reconcile modern documents, such as this, with the infallible Tradition of the Church is to simply understand that if any document were to say “non-Catholics, too, can be saved,” or the like, is to say that they can be saved, IF THEY BECOME CATHOLIC. God bless.

That would seem to be somewhat consistent with this sentence:

*Baptism (of non-Catholics) in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church… *

-C