Protestants shouldn't upset me -- right?

[Southernrich]

EENS:

Southernrich, you cannot even put one infallible quote here.

Are you a Fundamentalist who relies on proof-texts and Scripture-slinging?

The Catholic Church doesn’t pile one set of opinions on one side of a scale and another set on the other side, and then says that the side that outweighs the other is the truth.

I’m sorry, but I am quite convinced that you simply haven’t the competence to be taken seriously on this subject. You’ve not told us your academic credentials in the field of theology and you haven’t addressed any of the specific arguments by theologians faithful to the Church who have said that formal membership in the Catholic Church is not required for salvation. All you’ve done is the equivalent of slinging Scripture.

For those reasons, I find you wholly unbelievable.

 

[James0235]

Southernrich:

I’m sorry, but I am quite convinced that you simply haven’t the competence to be taken seriously on this subject. You’ve not told us your academic credentials in the field of theology and you haven’t addressed any of the specific arguments by theologians faithful to the Church who have said that formal membership in the Catholic Church is not required for salvation. All you’ve done is the equivalent of slinging Scripture.

Certainly you realize that infallible pronouncements trump the opinions of modern theologians?

James

 

[SPOKENWORD]

EEN. Not all Catholics are in a state of grace, yet NO non-Catholic is. God bless: So you are not judging anyone are you. Do you have a special Gift that knows how to read souls?Show me in scripture that salvation is based on the church we belong to. Whats important is what God Word says. I believe you are wrong in your thinking.

 

[Southernrich]

James0235:

Certainly you realize that infallible pronouncements trump the opinions of modern theologians?

Trump? Do you think this is a game of cards?

We’re not speaking of opinions. We are speaking of what the Church teaches, not of speculation by laymen, who demonstrate theological incompetence in claiming to be able to judge the Church’s teaching by resorting to the equivalent of Scripture slinging.

Listen, I’ve an MBA, a JD, and a PhD and because those degrees lie outside Theology, I, with all that education, am incompetent to challenge what the Church says is so. How do you see that someone who won’t even give his academic credentials is to be seen as competent to reject what our Pope has affirmed and teaches?

I suggest that you read Pope Paul VI’s Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate, John Paul II’s Orientale Lumen, and what orthodox theologians like John Hardon and William Most have written about the subject. And the Catholic Catechism as well. It is a matter of utter pride to presume that one is smarter and has more insight than our Church’s teaching authority.

And, please don’t buy into excrement such as “101 Heresies of this Anti-Pope” and the other junk being promoted by some “traditional Catholic” websites that feed on contempt for the Magisterium.

 

[DianJo]

Don’t feel like you’re alone. The one thing that has been really bothering me lately, is the first thread I see today (I just registered today)! Maybe I’m to learn something too from this thread.
Your thoughts on this are EXACTLY the same as mine. I am keenly aware because my own husband is Protestant. He’s a very logical person and I just can’t understand why he can see the logic in other things all around him but when it comes to the catholic faith, he is determined to prove me and us wrong! He tries to prove it at the top of his lungs! So, I end up walking away angry and then scolding myself because I let him get to me.
It is very hurtful when someone attacks Catholics because being Catholic is what we are. It becomes a personal attack. I think we have to put it in perspective in order to deal with our feelings about this issue.
You’re right, they are not good or charitable feelings. We have to pray for the wisdom and strength - I know, I want a concrete answer, too, I just don’t know if there is one.
I just came from a Christian Apologetic board and you should see the lies they are telling there! It’s enough to make your blood boil! No matter what you say or no matter how much “evidence” historically or otherwise you present, no matter how many times you “clarify” the same misconceptions over and over, they continue to spread the same lies - their ears and eyes are blocked from seeing and hearing the truth no matter how hard you try.
So, if you find an answer as to how to handle your feelings on this subject, I would be most interested.

 

[James0235]

Southernrich:

Trump? Do you think this is a game of cards?

Nope. That’s how you have decided to treat this. You actually seem to be claiming that the Church taught X in 100AD, taught X in 1000AD and taught X in 1900AD but now none of that matters because the Church teaches Y. It doesn’t work that way. Dogma doesn’t change.

Southernrich:

We’re not speaking of opinions. We are speaking of what the Church teaches, not of speculation by laymen, who demonstrate theological incompetence in claiming to be able to judge the Church’s teaching by resorting to the equivalent of Scripture slinging.

Of course we are speaking of what the Church teaches. And what the Church teaches is the same as what the Church taught. Again, Dogma doesn’t change. EENS actually quoted from the INFALLIBLE teachings of Popes and Councils and he also showed how this was taught by the Fathers of the Church.

Southernrich:

Listen, I’ve an MBA, a JD, and a PhD and because those degrees lie outside Theology, I, with all that education, am incompetent to challenge what the Church says is so. How do you see that someone who won’t even give his academic credentials is to be seen as competent to reject what our Pope has affirmed and teaches?

EVERYONE is incompetent to challenge what the Church says is so when the Church definitivley speaks on any matter. But, as Catholics we are not permitted to take every word that comes out of he mouth of the Pope as Gospel truth. Popes can and do err. But when they invoke the charism of infallibility we are assured that they are protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error in that instance.

And EENS hasn’t rejected what the Pope has affirmed because I don’t believe that the Pope has affirmed what you seem to think he has affirmed.

Southernrich:

I suggest that you read Pope Paul VI’s Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate, John Paul II’s Orientale Lumen, and what orthodox theologians like John Hardon and William Most have written about the subject. And the Catholic Catechism as well. It is a matter of utter pride to presume that one is smarter and has more insight than our Church’s teaching authority.

I read all of the documents of Vatican II probably a half dozen times. I’ve read Orientale Lumen. And I have read the Catechism straight through twice and am in the middle of my 3rd time in additon to all of the times I have just read specific sections.

James

 

[SPOKENWORD]

DianJo:

Don’t feel like you’re alone. The one thing that has been really bothering me lately, is the first thread I see today (I just registered today)! Maybe I’m to learn something too from this thread.
Your thoughts on this are EXACTLY the same as mine. I am keenly aware because my own husband is Protestant. He’s a very logical person and I just can’t understand why he can see the logic in other things all around him but when it comes to the catholic faith, he is determined to prove me and us wrong! He tries to prove it at the top of his lungs! So, I end up walking away angry and then scolding myself because I let him get to me.
It is very hurtful when someone attacks Catholics because being Catholic is what we are. It becomes a personal attack. I think we have to put it in perspective in order to deal with our feelings about this issue.
You’re right, they are not good or charitable feelings. We have to pray for the wisdom and strength - I know, I want a concrete answer, too, I just don’t know if there is one.
I just came from a Christian Apologetic board and you should see the lies they are telling there! It’s enough to make your blood boil! No matter what you say or no matter how much “evidence” historically or otherwise you present, no matter how many times you “clarify” the same misconceptions over and over, they continue to spread the same lies - their ears and eyes are blocked from seeing and hearing the truth no matter how hard you try.
So, if you find an answer as to how to handle your feelings on this subject, I would be most interested.

My recommendation to you is not to argue with your husband. What you should do is pray for him. It is exremely difficult to be in a marriage and have two sets of beliefs. I know God made us to be one. He will either come your way or you may go his way. Only prayer can bring you together. Ive been down this road only to find out I cannot do any converting. Only the Holy Spirit can do it. If you feel you faith is correct then live it and through your example the light will be shown.

 

[James0235]

Southernrich:

And, please don’t buy into excrement such as “101 Heresies of this Anti-Pope” and the other junk being promoted by some “traditional Catholic” websites that feed on contempt for the Magisterium.

I have NEVER suggested that the Holy Father is in any was a heretic. And the vast majority of traditional Catholics are the most ardent defenders of the Magisterium.

Don’t you think it shows contempt for the Magisterium to ignore the teachings of centuries of Popes and Councils in favor of more recent documents that you INTERPRET to mean the opposite of those Councils when those same documents have an interpretation that is in complete harmony with those centuries of Popes and Councils?

James

 

[EENS]

SPOKENWORD:

EEN. Not all Catholics are in a state of grace, yet NO non-Catholic is. God bless: So you are not judging anyone are you. Do you have a special Gift that knows how to read souls?Show me in scripture that salvation is based on the church we belong to. Whats important is what God Word says. I believe you are wrong in your thinking.

No, as I stated before, I am not making a judgment. The Catholic Church has the authority to define what is necessary for salvation (as even modernists concede when they note that Baptism is necessary, albeit they invent two other forms that do not suffice: blood and desire). Where in the Bible does it say the word Trinity? What are you sola Scriptura?? The Bible is a PART of the Word of God. The Church’s infallible declarations are another part. The Bible is not the full Word of God. St. Paul wrote, “Hold fast to the traditions as I have handed them over to you whether by word or by epistle” (paraphrased, but almost exact). Is what St. Paul wrote the Word of God merely because he wrote it? The only reason he wrote some things and not others is that he was not present to speak them. How do you converse with someone when you are physically together? Do you write notes back and forth? No, of course not! You speak. What St. Paul spoke as Tradition, which was written down at a later point and has been defined by the Church but is not in the Bible is just as much the Word of God as what he himself wrote down. Further, it is the Church who decided what is and is not inspired. If you do not believe in the authority of the Church, then you cannot believe either in the Bible. What is and is not a part of the Bible was not defined until almost AD 400 (393 I believe was when it was completely settled). What did Catholics do until then? They could not read the Bible. Still even until the 1400s the Bible could not be made readily available. What did Catholics do until then? And even once it was available, what did Catholics do? What do they still to this day do? We rely on the infallible Church instituted by Christ Himself to instruct us in faith and morals. Here the Church instructs in faith: outside of Her fold their can be found neither holiness nor salvation. Anyone who is contentious, we do not have such a custom, nor does the Church of God (c.f. I Cor. XI. 16). God bless.

By the way, if you want to know where in Scripture it states that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation, I actually put together a little Scriptural exegeses as best as I could here: xanga.com/item.aspx?user=CatholicCrusader&tab=weblogs&uid=68053383. There is a good extra-Biblical defense under the second “comment” from another writer. God bless.

 

[EENS]

James0235,

God bless you! Continue the work of the Church for salvation!

Ianua Caeli, ora pro nobis!

Gate of Heaven, pray for us!

 

[Emmy]

EENS:

No, protestants are NOT a part of the Mystical Body of Christ. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. Protestants are not a part of the Church, hence, they are not a part of the Body of Christ. Rather, they are heretics and cannot be saved unless they convert to the one True Church. God bless.

You mean the building itself? I don´t agree here we all are part of the Body of Christ to try to live and act like he wants us to do.
I do feel a lot of hate here Protestants are not heretics, they believe in Jesus Christ. And Christ said himself: love one another like I love you.

Emmy

 

[Southernrich]

James0235:

Don’t you think it shows contempt for the Magisterium to ignore the teachings of centuries of Popes and Councils in favor of more recent documents that you INTERPRET to mean the opposite of those Councils when those same documents have an interpretation that is in complete harmony with those centuries of Popes and Councils?

That I interpret? It’s theologically incompetent laymen like EENS who are interpreting Church teaching. Where’s his competence?

And, are you suggesting that Popes Paul VI and John Paul II are “showing contempt for the Magisterium” because of what they taught? Do you imagine that they don’t know what they’re talking about when they say that one does not have to be a professing and formal member of the Catholic Church to be saved? Are they really so ignorant as compared with dissenting “traditionalists”? Do you think that the people who prepared the Catechism are amateurs? And what about theologians like Most and Hardon? First-year students, perhaps?

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

The Church teaches that all salvation comes through the Church (hence the doctrine EENS).

But it does not teach that one must be a visible member of the Church to have that salvation mediated to it. (Cf. Lumen Gentium 14-16.) Nor has the Church ever taught that those who are not visible members of the Church are damned. To assert otherwise is to go contrary to centuries of Tradition (again, cf. the teaching of invincible ignorance).

 

[Southernrich]

Emmy:

I do feel a lot of hate here

You don’t experience this level of hatred except on the really extreme Fundamentalist Boards.

Protestants are not heretics, they believe in Jesus Christ. And Christ said himself: love one another like I love you.

Correct about modern Protestants. The original Protestants like Luther and Calvin are validly called heretics.

 

[Southernrich]

James0235:

And the vast majority of traditional Catholics are the most ardent defenders of the Magisterium.

I believe that those ardent defenders who are faithful to the Pope might better be characterized as “conservative” or “orthodox” Catholics. Every last website that rails against “the modernist John Paul II” or “John Paul II and his liberalism” calls itself “traditional Catholic.”

Even if they’re not formal sedevacantists, these dissenting Catholics seem to believe that everything in the Church since Vatican II on has the odor of the pits of Hell about it. And in so doing, they have become the new Protestants.

If you think that I’m lying, please, go to their websites and see the contempt held for Jesus Christ’s Church and His Vicar, John Paul II.

 

[iguana27]

eens:

Everyone SHOULD feel an absolute HATRED for the protestant religion (not for protestants themselves). We are called to hate sin. We hate murder, which kills the body. Since the soul is INFINTELY more important than the body, we should hate infinitely MORE the murder of the soul, which all non-Catholic religions do, as no one who is outside the Roman Catholic Church can be saved.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

So, we see from the CCC that those in a Protestant denom can be incorporated into Christ by virtue of their baptism. The Catholic Church does not teach what you believe, so you must rectify this, or protest, and thus become protestant.

Were it not for the ardent love of many Protestants and their efforts to evangelize non-Christians, many more non-believers would be lost, due to the abdication of the Great Commission by lay Catholics in our country for most of its history. If you want to lead others to Christ and his Church, great, go for it, but do not condemn other Christians out of ignorance.

My mother was not even allowed to walk into a Catholic church growing up in the 50s, because she did not belong to the faith. No one made an effort to welcome her into the flock, or invite her to explore the faith. Too often Catholicism is presented as a members only club, and “cradle Catholics” are unwilling to share their faith, citing social etiquette or the privateness of their faith.

If you want to HATE something, hate the uncharitable attitude that leads to fallen away Catholics and repels Non-Catholic believers.

Peace,
Iguana

 

[hawkeye]

They next time they corner you just say it’s no use arguing like this as were just chasing our tails, try this sentence if they corner you " I’ll pray for you " this causes many of them to run for the hills , as the last thing Protestants want to hear is that a Catholic would pray for them, what an insult.
There was a protestant preacher over here during election time telling the person that was standing in the election that she as a Catholic would go to hell, she replied with the words above and he took of like the road runner.

 

[iguana27]

This is the official Church teaching on Salvation outside the Church:

CCC:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

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")">846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

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")">848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338 *
We must reconcile ourselves to the fact that Protestants and non-believers can be saved or risk losing our own salvation.

I have always found it useful to compare my ideas against the Catechism, if they disagree, I pray about it and ask God to change my heart.

God bless,
Iguana

 

[iguana27]

hawkeye:

as the last thing Protestants want to hear is that a Catholic would pray for them, what an insult.

How do you know what Protestants want?

 

[hawkeye]

iguana27:

How do you know what Protestants want?

Even though your question makes no sense, if they wanted to have us pray for them then the wouldn’t take offence at us saying we will pray for them.