Protestants; why won't you be CATHOLIC!?

[Sellers1]

The Catholic Church is most cetainly a denomination.
Which do you believe has higher authority the pope or scripture?

I believe it was Bonhoffer or Bard who once said to be very careful and weary with any statement that was Bible and (meaning anything else with the Bible to be equal authority).

 

[JonNC]

Let me let you in on somthing that Baptists and other protestant religions teach. They teach that Catholics are not save becasue they believe they are saved by works and not faith, but think about it! If you are really saved and filled with the holy spirit than you cannot help but do works and those works Christ liked to call fruits! at the same baptist say you must be baptized to be saved, but why would you not call that a work? It is true! you must be baptized and you are compeled to do such a “work” becasue of your faith and love for Christ! I am sad to see that you have left the holy church for a counterfeit. I will pray for you!

Have a source for the bolded part?
Just to clarify that, while it may be true of some, this statement is probably not the rule with Protestant denominations. From the LCMS website - in part:

All those who confess Jesus Christ as Savior are recognized as “Christians” by the Synod—only God can look into a person’s heart and see whether that person really believes. It is possible to have true and sincere faith in Jesus Christ even while having wrong or incomplete beliefs about other doctrinal issues.

This explains why former Synod President A.L. Barry called members of the Roman Catholic Church “our fellow Christians” in his statement “Toward True Reconciliation,” which at the same time identifies and laments the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2216

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Since it is obviouse that you are verry confused, perhaps you should do the same for a house devided cannot stand and nor will your soul! Good luck!

Originally Posted by Zundrah
I can’t become catholic because I can’t believe in the Eucharist. I will however never leave my catholic church!

Zundrah,
I’m sure you are aware that the fate of your soul is not in the writings or opinions of jake23, but in the hands of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He, more than anyone, understands your being conflicted even basic teachings of the Christian faith. jake23 is right about one thing; take the time to learn what is taught by the Catholic Church, and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit in these matters.

Jon

 

[jake23]

Zundrah,
I’m sure you are aware that the fate of your soul is not in the writings or opinions of jake23, but in the hands of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He, more than anyone, understands your being conflicted even basic teachings of the Christian faith. jake23 is right about one thing; take the time to learn what is taught by the Catholic Church, and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit in these matters.

Jon

I apolagize for Jon’s imapropiate remarks, he is doing it for his own personal agenda. He is upset with me over my conversations with him and is using me and youre posts to make suttle little attacks towards me so please disregard the childish comments!

 

[estesbob]

For your convenience I even linked every single Bible reference to a quote online…

We do believe that every human being is fallible and born sinful and that does not exclude the pope, the magisterium or even Mary.

 

[JonNC]

I apolagize for Jon’s imapropiate remarks, he is doing it for his own personal agenda. He is upset with me over my conversations with him and is using me and youre posts to make suttle little attacks towards me so please disregard the childish comments!

I’ll let Zundrah decide if my remarks were childish.

Jon

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The Church does not do such things, Sellers. Sinful men, claiming to be Catholic, committed gross atrocities against the innocent. They were wolves in sheeps clothing. You are correct that the Church does not condone or support such acts, which are considered mortal sins.

The Church is the pure bride of Christ, and because she is ensouled by the HS, cannot commit such sins.

That is like saying that powered flight is impossible - some paper arguments are proofs that it can’t be done. But it it has. Logic can be a very poor guide to actuality, even if it is the logic of a doctrine. A priori arguments that the Church can’t sin, shatter on the fact that the Church has often sinned greatly. Observation shows it can - & observation was what brought an end to the apriorism of Aristotle’s method in the natural sciences. It’s very alarming that such a bankrupt method should still be alive in theology.​

There is not a scrap of evidence in the NT that the Church can’t sin - & it would seem only right that the NT’s ideas on the Church should count for something. Or has it been drowned out by 1900 years of Bible-free logic & theorising ?

Only those who have fallen away from the indwelling HS can do such things.

This is the fallacy of a thousand qualifications - by the time you’ve denied that​

• Popes & other bishops who have sanctioned:
• torture
• the castration of boys for their voices
• slavery
• persecution of witches
• persecution of Jews
• the removal of cbnildren from their families “in favour of the Faith”
• political assassination
• the removal of rulers from their thrones

are both members of the Church & Catholic bishops, you won’t have a visible Church left. You will have a vast number of wolves. That’s what comes of trying to save the holiness of the Church by denying that those members of the Church were or are Catholics who acted in an official capacity in the Church. Why is it so difficult to admit that they did evil, in an official capacity ? Why is it so hard to imagine that if the CC is going to call itself holy, it ought to act as though it actually were holy ? Why should anyone thinkit is holy, when it does not give any indication that it is - that, it is, in fact far from holy ? What the problem ? It does not do what it says on the tin, but behaves no better than if it had never heard of God or Christ. So pointing to the sins of other bodies, Churches or parties or whatever, is a useless defence; for it does not show that the CC is any better than they are - it shows, if anything, obly that theuy are not better in some respects than it. Which is not the problem, but an evasion of it.

It’s a suicidal argument, because the visibility of the Church is a dogma. To deny one dogma in order to salvage another is a hopeless way to answer objections. The fact is, that the Church has - through its official representatives - dome a very great deal of evil. It still does. Those of us who think,on the sttength of ikts behaviour & fruits, that the Church is fallible & sinful & seriously defective, don’t have to worry about being orthodox; those who set themselves up as “true Catholics” or as apologists or as both, have to square the claims of RC orthodoxy wwith the facts of history. I don’t envy them.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

History has proven the corruption and resistance to reform

It’s frequently reformed itself up to a point - but never as thoroughly as it seems - in the light of recent events - to need. I don’t see why it has to emphasise the “Roman distinctives” so much - they are given so much emphasis that common ground between Rome & Reformation - such as the Person of Christ - recedes into the background. Why can’t Rome be thought of as Christ-centred ? What it is known for, is the emphasis it puts on a woman who is not even the main character in the NT, nor anything like it. IMO, it needs a root and branch reformation - at present, it does little more than re-arrange the chairs on the Titanic. ​

 

[newbear]

after being a member of different churches, I am open to become a member of the Catholic Church. I just want to find someplace where I belong as a child of God, no matter what church that happens to be.

 

[DD2007]

Protestants, what ever your denomination is, please tell me why you will not be Catholic!?

xxx jennifer xxx

Well,

I believe that praying to anything other than God is wrong. I don’t believe in transubstantiation. I don’t believe we should make images of Christ and bow down to statues. I believe in sola scriptura. I don’t believe in apostolic succession as defined by the RCC. I don’t believe the pope is the successor of Peter. I don’t believe a priest can forgive or retain sins. I believe all Christians who have been regenerated are priests. I don’t believe in indulgences. I don’t believe in purgatory. I don’t believe Mary was sinless, assumed into heaven, co-mediatrix or co-redemptrix. I don’t believe Mary has anything to do with the Church today at all. I think she is in heaven awaiting the resurrection like all the other souls. I don’t believe that the RCC as it is today is the original church Christ founded. I don’t believe works contribute to salvation at all. I think the RCC needs to reform.

So…

I don’t really fit in.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Catholics dont beleive that the pope or the magestrium are perfect and we beleive they are sinful.

We are supposed to. From the Catechism:

2050 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops, as authentic teachers, preach to the People of God the faith which is to be believed and applied in moral life. It is also incumbent on them to pronounce on moral questions that fall within the natural law and reason.

2051 The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed.

From Vatican I:

we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that​

* when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
      o that is, when,
           1. in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
           2. in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
           3. he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, 
* he possesses,
      o by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, 
* that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
* Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

I believe it. Please study it to see that maybe you may be mistaken.

Well,

I believe that praying to anything other than God is wrong. I don’t believe in transubstantiation. I don’t believe we should make images of Christ and bow down to statues. I believe in sola scriptura. I don’t believe in apostolic succession as defined by the RCC. I don’t believe the pope is the successor of Peter. I don’t believe a priest can forgive or retain sins. I believe all Christians who have been regenerated are priests. I don’t believe in indulgences. I don’t believe in purgatory. I don’t believe Mary was sinless, assumed into heaven, co-mediatrix or co-redemptrix. I don’t believe Mary has anything to do with the Church today at all. I think she is in heaven awaiting the resurrection like all the other souls. I don’t believe that the RCC as it is today is the original church Christ founded. I don’t believe works contribute to salvation at all. I think the RCC needs to reform.

What if you are wrong? Please continue to study the faith.

 

[DD2007]

What if you are wrong? Please continue to study the faith.

What if you are wrong? I believe the bible is right because it is God’s written word and it is clear that Jesus Christ is Lord. So I follow what it says and don’t worry.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

That is like saying that powered flight is impossible - some paper arguments are proofs that it can’t be done. But it it has. Logic can be a very poor guide to actuality, even if it is the logic of a doctrine. A priori arguments that the Church can’t sin, shatter on the fact that the Church has often sinned greatly. Observation shows it can - & observation was what brought an end to the apriorism of Aristotle’s method in the natural sciences. It’s very alarming that such a bankrupt method should still be alive in theology.​

There is not a scrap of evidence in the NT that the Church can’t sin - & it would seem only right that the NT’s ideas on the Church should count for something. Or has it been drowned out by 1900 years of Bible-free logic & theorising ?

This is the fallacy of a thousand qualifications - by the time you’ve denied that​

• Popes & other bishops who have sanctioned:
• torture
• the castration of boys for their voices
• slavery
• persecution of witches
• persecution of Jews
• the removal of cbnildren from their families “in favour of the Faith”
• political assassination
• the removal of rulers from their thrones

are both members of the Church & Catholic bishops, you won’t have a visible Church left. You will have a vast number of wolves. That’s what comes of trying to save the holiness of the Church by denying that those members of the Church were or are Catholics who acted in an official capacity in the Church. Why is it so difficult to admit that they did evil, in an official capacity ? Why is it so hard to imagine that if the CC is going to call itself holy, it ought to act as though it actually were holy ? Why should anyone thinkit is holy, when it does not give any indication that it is - that, it is, in fact far from holy ? What the problem ? It does not do what it says on the tin, but behaves no better than if it had never heard of God or Christ. So pointing to the sins of other bodies, Churches or parties or whatever, is a useless defence; for it does not show that the CC is any better than they are - it shows, if anything, obly that theuy are not better in some respects than it. Which is not the problem, but an evasion of it.

It’s a suicidal argument, because the visibility of the Church is a dogma. To deny one dogma in order to salvage another is a hopeless way to answer objections. The fact is, that the Church has - through its official representatives - dome a very great deal of evil. It still does. Those of us who think,on the sttength of ikts behaviour & fruits, that the Church is fallible & sinful & seriously defective, don’t have to worry about being orthodox; those who set themselves up as “true Catholics” or as apologists or as both, have to square the claims of RC orthodoxy wwith the facts of history. I don’t envy them.

The Church has never taught sin. It is a sinless organization, due to the Holy Spirit, run by sinners, those sinful actions were done in opposition to the teaching of the Church. Any action done in opposition to the teaching is sin and is the basis for confession that reconciles one to the Church, which is the “Body of Christ” in hierarchical formation from Jesus to the successor of St. Peter, to the bishops, priests and laity. We are also the “People of God” as it was in the nation of Israel but is now fulfilled by grace.

The Church has the authority from Christ to “bind and loose” but you have the free will to reject this and even reject God if you want. To reject the Church is to reject God Himself if “He who hears you, hears Me” is as it appears, apostolic in nature as the Catholic Church is. Sacred Tradition of the Church is that which is denied in rejecting the Catholic Church and is replaced with a tradition of ones own choosing. Free will is affected by original sin and much prayer and humble study must be done to make the right decision.

 

[guanophore]

She is a troll and is playing people on this forum. Just read the history of her posts, it’s very obvious.

I thought so at first also, but I have since become pursuaded that she is just a very confused and conflicted young lady. It is almost like reading posts by someone with multiple personalities. I do think she is sincerely searching though.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

What if you are wrong? I believe the bible is right because it is God’s written word and it is clear that Jesus Christ is Lord. So I follow what it says and don’t worry.

“Work out your salvation in fear and trembling”. This means that one can be wrong due to misapplication. 2 Peter 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with Him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

One must study, with perseverance, and make sure they are not following a personal desire to avoid sacrifice because of rules of conduct, or that one wants to worship as one wants to, leaving behind humility and obedience for arrogance and pride.

If one finds the fruits of the Holy Spirit:: 1. Charity 2. Joy 3. Peace 4. Patience
5. Benignity 6. Goodness 7. Long-suffering (patient suffering over an extended period) 8. Mildness 9. Faith 10. Modesty 11. Continency 12. Chastity, in the teaching, not just the personal experience, of their church, then they have found the church that is living out the teaching of the Catholic Church. Abortion, contraceptives resulting in sex for recreation, unnatural sex “lifestyles”, excuses for sin like lying, adultery, fornication, masturbation, etc. are not a part of the Holy Spirit and must be discerned carefully because we are creatures who are prone to the flesh. Just study the faith always and don’t presume that you can do anything you want as the “narrow road” leads to life. Ease and lack of worry don’t seem to be a narrow road.

 

[guanophore]

The Catholic Church is most cetainly a denomination.
Which do you believe has higher authority the pope or scripture?

No, His. Such a statement reflects an ignorance of the history of Christianity. To “denominate” means to take ones name away from…
The Reformers deliberately separated themselves from certain aspects of the Catholic Church, “de-nominating” from it. All churches formed since then are distinguished by what they reject of Catholicism. The Catholic Church was the original, and not denominated.

Scripture cannot weild authority. This is a quality of persons, not books, however Holy. To exercise authority requires will, discernment, and the ability to take responsibility. Scripture does not have these qualities. That is why Jesus left people in charge.

 

[DD2007]

“Work out your salvation in fear and trembling”. This means that one can be wrong due to misapplication. 2 Peter 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with Him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

One must study, with perseverance, and make sure they are not following a personal desire to avoid sacrifice because of rules of conduct, or that one wants to worship as one wants to, leaving behind humility and obedience for arrogance and pride.

If one finds the fruits of the Holy Spirit:: 1. Charity 2. Joy 3. Peace 4. Patience
5. Benignity 6. Goodness 7. Long-suffering (patient suffering over an extended period) 8. Mildness 9. Faith 10. Modesty 11. Continency 12. Chastity, in the teaching, not just the personal experience, of their church, then they have found the church that is living out the teaching of the Catholic Church. Abortion, contraceptives resulting in sex for recreation, unnatural sex “lifestyles”, excuses for sin like lying, adultery, fornication, masturbation, etc. are not a part of the Holy Spirit and must be discerned carefully because we are creatures who are prone to the flesh. Just study the faith always and don’t presume that you can do anything you want as the “narrow road” leads to life. Ease and lack of worry don’t seem to be a narrow road.

You confuse justification and sanctification.

We are justified by the righteousnes of Christ imputed to us by the Father.

We are sanctified by cooperating with the work of the Holy Spirit. Paul was speaking of sanctification not Justification when he said work out your salvation. If he was talking about justification he would have contradicted the passage below.

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I believe that we can all agree that he didn’t contradict it because the RCC is supposed to teach that the scriptures are inerrant.

 

[guanophore]

So do you think that I should leave my church? It is my church because it is Christ’s church!

Does it make any sense to say this, when you are also saying that you are “giving up trying to follow Catholic beliefs”?

The statements that you make frequently contradict one another like this.

 

[Dee123]

There are many, many wonderful beliefs held by Catholics, however, I can’t become a Catholic because of some wrong beliefs. (Mary dieing a virgin; the bread and wine turning into the actual Body and Blood of Jesus; Peter being the 1st pope; the Roman Catholic Church being the true church mentioned in the NT, etc.)

Who determined that what we, Catholics, believe, are “wrong beliefs”?

And in regards to the Bread and Wine turning into the Body and Blood of Christ, why don’t you believe that? In the book of John Jesus actually stated that whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life many, many times. You should read that chapter and count how many times he states this…and think about this…the people were aghast…they couldn’t believe he was saying this…most left him…did he call them back? NO! Peter and some others were left, that’s it…Did Jesus run after them to try to convince them that that’s not what he meant? NO!
And notice this: in many other places Jesus spoke and the people couldn’t understand and Jesus never explained it to them…however, when he was alone with his disciples and the apostles, he would explain the true meaning to them…Did he explain any thing to his disciples after everybody left? No, he never changed a word…

Another thing: isn’t it amazing that in many of Paul’s letters he actually refers to the eating of the body and blood of Christ or the drinking of the cup and eating of the bread? He talks about this in a few places…He was never with Jesus yet Jesus revealed this to him…Why would Jesus reveal this to him and why would he bother talking about it if it didn’t mean anything?

Also, if you really want to see what the students of the Apostle John say about this, read Polycarps comments about this…read about what St. Augustine has to say about this and Cyril of Jerusalem and any other church Father you can think of…then perhaps you can make a knowledgeable decision…

Peace.

 

[guanophore]

I apolagize for Jon’s imapropiate remarks, he is doing it for his own personal agenda. He is upset with me over my conversations with him and is using me and youre posts to make suttle little attacks towards me so please disregard the childish comments!

No, Jon is right. It is inappropriate for you to make judgements upon the state of the eternal soul of others. He has said or done nothing childish at all. In fact, he is one of the more mature and gracious non-Catholic posters here!

He also gave very good spiritual direction to Zundrah. She needs to do exactly what he recommended.