Purgatory

[jlhargus]

4: I have read 1&2 Maccabees. Judas believed only in the resurrection not purgatory and that we can be loosed from our sins after the resurrection. .

Judas believed not only in the resurrection he also believed If one died in Godliness they could be loosed from venial sins, after death, by prayers and sacrifices offered for them. Just as we do today. Did he have a concept of purgatory? Certainly not as we do.

Yet Judas had the concept one could be loosed from sin in Hades. The abode of the dead where the souls of the just and unjust went before Christ rose. His concept was those in Hades whose sins where loosed would have their status changed so as to be bodily resurrected to new life on earth.

He had no concept of going to heaven or heavenly Jerusalem coming down to a new earth and universe replacing old earthly Jerusalem with the Heavenly New Jerusalem. It would be superfluous to pray for those souls now in heaven, or hell because their status can’t be changed. It only makes sense to pray for those, who died in Godliness, whose status can be changed to heaven, being loosed from their venial sins. Nothing unclean can enter New Jerusalem.

Please post where 1or2 Maccabees indicates those sins were only forgiven after the resurrection? Now that would be a real suffering & purgatory for those souls passed over not knowing, for thousands of years, if one’s sins will be remitted or retained till after the resurrection.

[2Macc12:44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 46 And because he considered that **they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.]

 

[po18guy]

As Dr. David Anders pointed out in his radio show “Called to Communion” Thursday, the purgative state is tied inextricably to the concept of penance. If one cannot grasp penance, the state of purgation will never make sense. For those not disposed toward penance, consider that prison inmates serve their time in a penitentiary - even though their victim may have forgiven them.

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by jlhargus: Yes it is nice to find a point of agreement. I see from your statement above we can also agree 1Cor3:13 is teaching one is saved as by fire. We disagree on when it takes place.

Correct. I say it happens after the resurrection.

Well we are in agreement some sins are forgiven after death as by fire. We agree 1Cor3:13 is scriptural evidence for this. We call this purgatory what do you call it?

The only thing to be resolved would be when this takes place. At our particular judgment at death as the Church teaches or at the final judgment as you believe.

I asked you previously, “If the soul is not judged at death where do they go till the end of time.” You responded.

2 Esdras 7:75-101

2 Esdras in not inspired scripture, it is not included in the Catholic, or Protestant canon. It is only found in the RSV, NRSV, NRSV Anglican and the CEB. The copy rights to these 4 versions all belong to the National Council of Churches USA.

2Esdras is not found in the RSVCE or any other English bible on biblegateway. In quickly scanning those non authoritative verses in 2Esdras it appears they are speaking of OT departed souls in Hades. The just souls Christ took to heaven when he ascended. I see no evidence it happens after the resurrection. If you have evidence please post it.

 

[blanchardman]

Judas believed not only in the resurrection he also believed If one died in Godliness they could be loosed from venial sins, after death, by prayers and sacrifices offered for them. Just as we do today. Did he have a concept of purgatory? Certainly not as we do.

Yet Judas had the concept one could be loosed from sin in Hades. The abode of the dead where the souls of the just and unjust went before Christ rose. His concept was those in Hades whose sins where loosed would have their status changed so as to be bodily resurrected to new life on earth.

He had no concept of going to heaven or heavenly Jerusalem coming down to a new earth and universe replacing old earthly Jerusalem with the Heavenly New Jerusalem. It would be superfluous to pray for those souls now in heaven, or hell because their status can’t be changed. It only makes sense to pray for those, who died in Godliness, whose status can be changed to heaven, being loosed from their venial sins. Nothing unclean can enter New Jerusalem.

Please post where 1or2 Maccabees indicates those sins were only forgiven after the resurrection? Now that would be a real suffering & purgatory for those souls passed over not knowing, for thousands of years, if one’s sins will be remitted or retained till after the resurrection.

[2Macc12:44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 46 And because he considered that **they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them

. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.]

“43…In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.”
He did what he did 28th the resurrection in mind. (vs.43)
It would be “foolish to pray for the dead” otherwise. (vs44).

 

[jlhargus]

“43…In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.” He did what he did 28th the resurrection in mind. (vs.43) It would be “foolish to pray for the dead” otherwise. (vs44).

Yes Blanchardman, he did what he did with the resurrection in mind. Had they not been released from their sins before the resurrection they would not be resurrected incorruptible to life eternal. If one is raised incorruptible there can be no sin otherwise they would be corrupted. They would not have been clothed properly for the wedding feast. Nothing unclean can enter heaven were now we see those just OT & NT spirits of just men made perfect.

[Hb12:22 But **ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]

[1Thes4:16 For **the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.]

The dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptible first. Then those still alive on earth will be caught up into the air and changed in a twinkling of an eye putting on incorrupttion.

[Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, **When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)]

 

[blanchardman]

Originally Posted by jlhargus: Yes it is nice to find a point of agreement. I see from your statement above we can also agree 1Cor3:13 is teaching one is saved as by fire. We disagree on when it takes place.

Well we are in agreement some sins are forgiven after death as by fire. We agree 1Cor3:13 is scriptural evidence for this. We call this purgatory what do you call it?

The only thing to be resolved would be when this takes place. At our particular judgment at death as the Church teaches or at the final judgment as you believe.

I asked you previously, “If the soul is not judged at death where do they go till the end of time.” You responded.

2 Esdras in not inspired scripture, it is not included in the Catholic, or Protestant canon. It is only found in the RSV, NRSV, NRSV Anglican and the CEB. The copy rights to these 4 versions all belong to the National Council of Churches USA.

2Esdras is not found in the RSVCE or any other English bible on biblegateway. In quickly scanning those non authoritative verses in 2Esdras it appears they are speaking of OT departed souls in Hades. The just souls Christ took to heaven when he ascended. I see no evidence it happens after the resurrection. If you have evidence please post it.

2 Esdras can be found in the King James (1611), the Slavonic, Ethiopian and the Vulgate (as 4Esdras).

On biblegateway biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Esdras+1&version=NRSV

 

[steve_b]

2 Esdras can be found in the King James (1611), the Slavonic, Ethiopian and the Vulgate (as 4Esdras).

On biblegateway biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Esdras+1&version=NRSV

“Not a little confusion arises from the titles of these books. Esdras A of the Septuagint is III Esdras of St. Jerome, whereas the Greek Esdras B corresponds to I and II Esdras of the Vulgate, which were originally united into one book. Protestant writers, after the Geneva Bible, call I and II Esdras of the Vulgate respectively Ezra and Nehemiah, and III and IV Esdras of the Vulgate respectively I and II Esdras. It would be desirable to have uniformity of titles. We shall follow here the terminology of St. Jerome.”

From : newadvent.org/cathen/05535a.htm

 

[jlhargus]

2 Esdras can be found in the King James (1611), the Slavonic, Ethiopian and the Vulgate (as 4Esdras).

kingjamesbibleonline.org/Apocrypha-Books-List/1611-Apocrypha-Books-List.php

It is listed as apocrypha in the King James 1611. It may have some edifying reading but was not considered inspired. It is possible parts of 2Esdars is joined to another book as inspired I don’t know. It wouldn’t make any difference as 2Esdras is speaking of those OT just in Hades who Christ took to heaven as we see in Hebrews the spirits of just men made perfect.

[Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, **When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)]

[1Pt4:6 For **for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.]

[Hb12:22 But **ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]

 

[blanchardman]

Yes Blanchardman, he did what he did with the resurrection in mind. Had they not been released from their sins before the resurrection they would not be resurrected incorruptible to life eternal. If one is raised incorruptible there can be no sin otherwise they would be corrupted. They would not have been clothed properly for the wedding feast. Nothing unclean can enter heaven were now we see those just OT & NT spirits of just men made perfect.

[Hb12:22 But **ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem

, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]

[1Thes4:16 For **the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.]

The dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptible first. Then those still alive on earth will be caught up into the air and changed in a twinkling of an eye putting on incorrupttion.

[Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, **When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)]

Please explain how these NT verses pertain to what Judas M. believed 150+ years before they were written?

 

[jlhargus]

Please explain how these NT verses pertain to what Judas M. believed 150+ years before they were written?

They have to do with your view that the sins of those in Hades who Judas M was praying for are only loosed from their sins passing through fire after the resurrection.

Hb12:22-24 OT dead who Judas M. had in mind, spirits of just men, who were in Hades before Christ are now after Christ in heaven made perfect before the resurrection not after as you believe.

1Thes 4:16 the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptible first. Then those still alive on earth will be caught up into the air and changed in a twinkling of an eye putting on incorruption. The dead in Christ are loosed from their sins and raise incorruptible before the resurrection not made perfect after If raised incorruptible there is no need for further purification after the resurrection.

 

[blanchardman]

“In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.”

Two men are praying for their deceased wives.
Bob believes in heaven and the resurrection but not purgatory.
Ted believes in heaven and purgatory but not the resurrection.

jlhargus based upon the quoted verses who is being foolish?

 

[blanchardman]

“44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.”

Man #1 believes in “purgatory” but not the resurrection. His wife died. He prays for her.
Man #2 believes in the resurrection but not “purgatory”. His wife died. He prays for her.
In light of the quoted verse which one is acting foolishly?

 

[steve_b]

“44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.”

Man #1 believes in “purgatory” but not the resurrection. His wife died. He prays for her.
Man #2 believes in the resurrection but not “purgatory”. His wife died. He prays for her.
In light of the quoted verse which one is acting foolishly?

Man #1 doesn’t even make sense.
Man #2 assuming the man’s wife didn’t die in mortal sin, and didn’t get a straight shot to heaven, prayers after her death can aid her.

 

[blanchardman]

Man #1 doesn’t even make sense.
Man #2 assuming the man’s wife didn’t die in mortal sin, and didn’t get a straight shot to heaven, prayers after her death can aid her.

Man #1 Why?
Man#2 So you agree prayers for the dead can help her AFTER the resurrection.

 

[Borealis]

Man #2’s lack of belief in purgatory doesn’t negate purgatory’s existence, any more than Martin Luther’s lack of belief in heliocentrism didn’t negate the earth orbiting the sun. GOD believes in Purgatory, which means it DOES exist, whether Man #2 believes it or not.

Belief does not necessarily equal reality.

As for Man #1, purgatory involves life after death; if he doesn’t believe in the resurrection, he’s not going to believe in purgatory, either.

 

[steve_b]

Man #1 Why?

seems odd, one believes in purgatory but not the resurrection
b:

Man#2 So you agree prayers for the dead can help her AFTER the resurrection.

The resurrection is the resurrection of the dead. Those souls were already judged when the person died. If one dies in a state of sanctifying grace (they didn’t die in mortal sin) they go to heaven. Maybe not a direct shot, i.e. purgatory first but then heaven is a guarantee…prayers for sure help them during their purification.

Not so for souls who went to hell. Prayers do them no good.

That said, since we don’t know how a soul was judged by Jesus, it is always good and holy to pray for ALL the dead. If a soul one is praying for is in hell, I’d like to think, God uses those prayers for another soul who needs and can use the prayers.

 

[blanchardman]

“44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.”

Man #1 believes in “purgatory” but not the resurrection. His wife died. He prays for her.
Man #2 believes in the resurrection but not “purgatory”. His wife died. He prays for her.
In light of the quoted verse which one is acting foolishly?

Let’s try this again. Treat this like a question on a reading comprehension test. The only information you have to work with is what is posted here.

 

[steve_b]

Let’s try this again. Treat this like a question on a reading comprehension test. The only information you have to work with is what is posted here.

as I said in my last post (emphasis mine)

since we don’t know how a soul was judged by Jesus, it is always good and holy to pray for ALL the dead. If a soul one is praying for is in hell, I’d like to think, God uses those prayers for another soul who needs and can use the prayers.

 

[blanchardman]

as I said in my last post (emphasis mine)

since we don’t know how a soul was judged by Jesus, it is always good and holy to pray for ALL the dead. If a soul one is praying for is in hell, I’d like to think, God uses those prayers for another soul who needs and can use the prayers.

You did not answer the question. Of the two men mentioned in my little “story” who was acting foolishly as described in the included bible verse?

 

[steve_b]

You did not answer the question. Of the two men mentioned in my little “story” who was acting foolishly as described in the included bible verse?

Re: 2 Macc 12:44 "For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. "

I thought I answered that one in post #88

I said, Re: Man #1, “if one doesn’t believe in the resurrection but believes in purgatory, that makes no sense.”

Or IOW that seems foolish to me, because Man#1 is thinking the dead stay dead, they don’t rise again, so in the next breath why would he pray for his wife in purgatory?