Putting your marital relationship first..?

[CARose]

I think that when we allow ourselves to be open and honest, the Holy Spirit often gets involved and helps us out. Perhaps you mentioned the conversation because, while you don’t think about it, it speaks to the insecurities you have regarding the time he took “away” from you while seeking his place with God while living the married life.

Have you ever wondered if he was really meant for a call to the Priesthood? Do you wonder if he was mourning that he hadn’t answered such a call?

Some devout Catholics believe that Religious Life is a Calling and married life is for those who don’t have a vocation. There’s a story of a Priest and a Bishop talking about an incredible individual they both knew (it’s a true story, and the person they were talking about has since been canonized, but I don’t recall the cast of characters - argh! - and I may have some of the details wrong, sorry, without enough reference details I don’t know how to begin to look it up ). The one comments on how sad it is that they lost this Holy man to the trap of marriage, at which point the other turns and questions “So, am I to understand that you believe we have 6 sacraments and a trap?”

Marriage IS a vocation, and a sacramental marriage allows us to join God in the co-creation of life. This is a very sacred opportunity to join in creating new souls for the Glory and Honor of God. Who knows when His Kingdom will come, but it will require all our help. If we raise truly Holy Children, perhaps we can help usher in a new era.

CARose

 

[Konig]

I am just struggling with the fact that I ask so little of him and he is unwilling to deliver it.

Just my POV. I might be guilty of some of these things too. I need for my wife to tell me exactly what to do. She may say I need to play w/ the kids more. Hmmm. I thought I did. But when she says, “Go out and play catch w/ the boys now.” Okay, that sounds like a good thing to do. I need specific instructions to comply w/ her wishes. I try to provide what she wants but at times I need specific instructions. I am not sure if it is just a man thing or me.

 

[chimakuni]

This is a wonderful thread! I am a wife, whose husband tries, but does not always hit the romance button correctly. One day he came home and told me that we would be going out on a date. This was a nice surprise. He further told me that Father had given him this ‘date’ as a penance! I truly love our priest!

Just wanted to let you know that when the kids are older you will still be married to this wonderful man and you will have more time, both of you, to continue to enjoy the fruit of your labors right now, Carrieloon. The woman is the emotional glue of the relationship most times and you are wise to be seeking counsel and not destroying.

God Bless you both!

 

[CARose]

Konig,

How can I, as a wife here, request something like that without having my husband resent my “telling him what to do”?

I’m actually quite serious. We’ve been married for over 12 years and I’ve never been able to feel that he’s willing to do things if I suggest it. No “honey do list” in this household.

He does TONS, don’t get me wrong. But it has to be his idea. If he does offer, of his own accord, to assist in something, I can’t even tell him what needs to be done for it to be helpful (e.g. this form needs to be completed in this manner, or please grab them from that pile first so I can keep track of what I have).

This leads to frustration, as his assistance, without understanding my needs, often ends up working at cross purposes. And then he’s mad that I don’t appreciate all he did to help me out (as I’m biting my tongue while I try to sort out one mess or another, realizing he didn’t want his effort to be for naught, but knowing that all it would have taken was a willingness on his part to let me tell him what I wanted / needed).

I’ve tried asking, not telling,
suggesting, not asking,
being gentle, not whiny,
stating it as a matter of fact, not pushy

Now, I simply try not to ask for anything, but rather to pray and leave it in God’s hands. He actually maybe softening, but it’s been a roller-coaster ride, no sooner do I feel we’ve made progress then we’re headed back to the bottom of the track. (typcially after I do a silent victory dance that we’re making progress - do ya think he might be detecting PRIDE and not liking it!?)

It’s a real challenge in that the two of us have NOT found a way to work as a couple, even after all these years. Mind you, I’ve been a big part of the problem. We started our relationship with my completely buying into the Career Woman myth. And I was successful at it, until our daughter was born and I hated going off on my business trips. He supported my career, but I wanted to be a mom.

Challenges, challenges.

How funny to learn that Christ had it all clearly defined, if I’d only been willing to follow His lead first! We’re learning, but it’s a real challenge in the meantime.

Oh, and, my husband is not practicing any form of religion, so that further complicates things, as I’ve come to fully understand my faith.

CARose

 

[CARose]

chimakuni:

… He further told me that Father had given him this ‘date’ as a penance! I truly love our priest!

Sounds like you have a very wise Priest!

And a silly husband for copping to the fact that this was his penance!

Yup, our daughter is 12 yrs old and I had hoped that 3 years ago, we might take the step of renewing our wedding vows at our 10th anniversary. Our marriage was already rocky so I worked hard to begin communicating a couple of years in advance of the 10 yr anniverary, trying to find a way to resolve our differences. I knew that we had issues that needed to be addressed if we were going to get through, 1st her teen years (and what I was still hoping would be the births of additional children) and then after her teen years, our empty nest time alone.

I’m still hoping we’ll work things out so that our marriage can be the Family Convenental Priesthood I know we are meant to experience. Call me a hopeless romantic, but I believe we are meant to have more.

Just as our basic hunger for food and drink can be satisfied through eating and drinking, and our desire for God can be satisfied through prayer and living according to His will, so too can our desire for a relationship that gives true Glory to God be met, if we come to him together in prayer and with a life led according to His plan rather than our own.

I just know in my gut that this is real, as I know that the Teachings of the Church are true. We have a wonderful God and He wouldn’t lead us wrong! :bowdown2:

I’m trying to learn to be a good wife, honest, even though I fail miserably.

CARose

 

[carrieloon]

This is where my thread my go a little weird for some folks here. Sorry if it is inappropriate; I will end the discussion if it is.

As I have hinted, alot of our problems are sexual in nature.

My husband does not want to make time for sex; he just wants it to happen if it was meant to be and forget about it, if not. Now with little ones in the house, there is hardly EVER a good time for it so I am not sure how he expects things to go.
He does desire me but he *will not *show it until I show my desire for him first. This does not leave me feeling very womanly, nor do I view it as very manly on his part. I know these are stereotypical (and manmade) views to hold about whom should be showing what to whom, but I can’t help it–I am a product of my society, as we all are.

He controls every aspect of our sex life and I am growing weary of it. Some days I wonder how I will stay faithful to him (just wondering only; I have never had any real inclination to stray) or keep the love alive for the rest of my life when I get so little feedback from him as his lover.

So here is my question: Does anyone know of any Christian sex manuals? Does such a thing even exist?
This is an area in which going to a priest (which I have done) is limited in its helpfulness, so I am turning towards a book for help. I feel that we need both technical and practical advice, as well as spiritual guidance.

Thanks in advance.

 

[SteveG]

carrieloon:

He controls every aspect of our sex life and I am growing weary of it. Some days I wonder how I will stay faithful to him (just wondering only; I have never had any real inclination to stray) or keep the love alive for the rest of my life when I get so little feedback from him as his lover.

So here is my question: Does anyone know of any Christian sex manuals? Does such a thing even exist?
This is an area in which going to a priest (which I have done) is limited in its helpfulness, so I am turning towards a book for help. I feel that we need both technical and practical advice, as well as spiritual guidance.

Wow! This is very personal and I fear to even speak on this as just a lay person with my own opinions. The fear is of giving bad advice. Please take anything on this topic with a Giant grain of salt and as just opion. First it would have to be asked what kind of book you are looking for. You say ‘sex manual’ above. Does that mean a Christian version of the Joy of Sex? or are you talking about theological discussions along the lines of The Theology of the Body?

Certainly there are a few Christian Sex Manuals, but one has to be very careful with them, as most are protestant and have no problem with contraception and self-gratification which are manifestly not OK by Catholic standards. I had a friend a while back who needed similar help and after an exhaustive search I found nothing that was, ahem…explicit enough, while still beign Catholic.

Again, what type of book exactly is being looked for?

 

[carrieloon]

Steve,
That is exactly the problem I have encountered so far. No book on sex that currently exists (to my knowledge) can really speak to the way that Catholics live their lives.

I suppose the type of book I am looking for is one where there is technical advice, in addition to relational advice (i.e., you MUST make time for your spouse or your relationship will disintegrate.) Throw in some Biblical references and quotes from any of the Pope’s fabulous encyclicals or books on human sexuality and you’d have yourself a perfect book.

My husband will not step out of his comfort zone and refuses to consider any of my suggestions, so that is why I was thinking that a book might help things. He is the type of person who I can say something til I’m blue in the face but until he hears it from an outside source (preferably a Catholic authority figure) he will pay little attention to it.

 

[pittsburghjeff]

hmmmm just a couple thoughts

I am wondering if maybe the core problem is that you don’t feel like your husband is really attracted to you. Sometimes when you think you are craving more sexual attention you are just craving attention period from him.

Also, I would just caution you about being careful. If you are having these thoughts about faithfulness now its a smaller step than you think to being unfaithful. What I mean is that because you are hurting, you could be easy prey for another man who isn’t so moral. Right now the prospect of unfaithfulness seems remote, but that might be because you haven’t had a real tempting opportunity. There are no shortage of men out there looking to give you sexual attention whether you are married or not. Just be careful about forming close bonds with another man at work or school or anywhere, especially one you think you might be attracted to. People don’t necessarily make a conscious decision and wake up one day and say “I am going to cheat.” I think it is something that they slowly slip into. And if you think you aren’t capable of it you are wrong.

I don’t think you are going to find any books out there. If you get this problem solved, maybe you can write one.

Maybe the root of the problem you need to work on in your relationship isn’t the sex, but the fact that you have to find an outside authority to get your husband to take your suggestions seriously. That could be the real problem. You shouldn’t have to quote the pope to get him to entertain your suggestions provided they are moral.

Maybe another practical suggestion is to find a way of lessening his load in other areas of life. If he is as busy being a do-gooder as I am it can become easy to put your wife last. He may just need to work less or drop one of his activities to be able to have t he time and energy to meet your needs.

Good luck and keep us posted on how it goes.

Jeff

 

[carrieloon]

Jeff,
There were so many gems in this message I don’t know where to start.

I realize that I am at risk for an affair. Right now, I do not come into contact with any men at all (I don’t work) and that is good. I don’t want anyone other than my husband and I really cannot even wrap my mind around being an adulterer. However, I am not so righteous that I would sit here and say that it can’t happen to me. You are right–if a man came into my life who paid attention to me, I would feel very susceptible to it. That is sad.
It makes me feel pathetic and weak and also resentful and angry towards my husband.

The other part you nailed is the chronic do-gooder! That is him in a nutshell. He has many obligations throughout his day and he DOES NOT FAIL on any of these. I am the only thing in his life in which he allows himself to be a failure. That is, he puts me last because he knows he can. My love for him is so constant and strong that I believe he thinks that it will never change. I have tried to explain to him that in 20 years when our kids are grown I may or may not feel the same depending on what we do NOW and what sort of relationship we cultivate along the way.

Right now, I continue to say the Lord’s Prayer a lot.

Carrie

 

[SteveG]

carrieloon:

Steve,
That is exactly the problem I have encountered so far. No book on sex that currently exists (to my knowledge) can really speak to the way that Catholics live their lives.

I suppose the type of book I am looking for is one where there is technical advice, in addition to relational advice (i.e., you MUST make time for your spouse or your relationship will disintegrate.) Throw in some Biblical references and quotes from any of the Pope’s fabulous encyclicals or books on human sexuality and you’d have yourself a perfect book.

My husband will not step out of his comfort zone and refuses to consider any of my suggestions, so that is why I was thinking that a book might help things. He is the type of person who I can say something til I’m blue in the face but until he hears it from an outside source (preferably a Catholic authority figure) he will pay little attention to it.

I’ll have to refer you back to Popcak’s book (which you have already purchased). With the exception of the ‘technical advice’, I really believe it has most of what you are looking for. It certainly does address the topic of sexuality, it’s importance, etc. It’s the closest Catholic book to what you are looking fo

For more technical stuff, there are a couple of Christian books. Notably…
Intended for Pleasure
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0800712536/ref=pd_sbs_b_1/104-3320546-5167924?v=glance&s=books
and
The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0849928931/ref=pd_sim_books_5/104-3320546-5167924?v=glance&s=books

…Both of which I have read (while researching the concept of writing a truly Catholic book in this vein). The second is the better of the two, but again, I hesitate because they are Protestant and accept many things (contraception and masturbation) which don’t jive with Catholic teaching.

If you took one of these and threw out the objectionable stuff, then married it up to Greg Popcak’s book, you’d have what you are looking for. Unfortunately, there simply are not any truly Catholic books which put it all together.

If you can believe it, a friend of mine and I have an outline already put together for just such a book. But with each of us having families and jobs to attend to, our dream of putting it all together is moving really slowly…

 

[carrieloon]

well now you know that there is an audience for your book!

I’m sure we will like the Popcak book. The other two books sound interesting but my husband would read it and as soon as there were non-Catholic suggestions, he would toss it and refuse to read anymore. He (so far) does not have the ability to take what applies, when reading, and discard the rest.
It is a hard thing to do, though.
Thanks for the suggestions. I will look into it.

 

[SteveG]

carrieloon:

well now you know that there is an audience for your book!

The real problem is that I have a sense of ‘Who am I to write such a book.’ You mention that your husband would take advice only from a Catholic ‘authority’. That certainly isn’t me. I am just a lay dude who had a friend with similar issues who got interested in the concept because of the void of such Catholic material. On top of that, while I think my wife and I have a generally satisfying sex life, I’d be the first to admit that I have A LOT to learn. What’s really prevented me, more so than even time, is the feeling of being totally inadequete to such a task. This is something Christopher West, or John Kippley should be writing, not some schmoo lay person from Pittsburgh.

 

[carrieloon]

See, that’s the thing with him.

I don’t know that he has ever actually looked INTO the credentials of any of the books he has ever read. The fact that they are Catholic and managed to get their book published would be enough for him.

Which totally discounts the fact that **I **am Catholic and have told him the same thing!

He is frustrating, for sure.

I do know what you mean about feeling that you aren’t worthy of such a task, however, one thing that struck me after seeing Christopher West this past February was how much of a regular Joe he is. He was just called to reach out to people…about sex, of all things! He did not appear to possess any special knowledge, just a great enthusiasm for the Theology of the Body and human beings in general. Oh and his wife.

So get started on the book.

 

[Brendan]

I’d also recommmend a Marriage Encounter Weekend

www.wwme.org

My wife and I help put them on and they are very worthwhile. It’s really great to get away for a weekend with your spouse and your God.

 

[SteveG]

carrieloon:

I do know what you mean about feeling that you aren’t worthy of such a task, however, one thing that struck me after seeing Christopher West this past February was how much of a regular Joe he is. He was just called to reach out to people…about sex, of all things! He did not appear to possess any special knowledge, just a great enthusiasm for the Theology of the Body and human beings in general. Oh and his wife.

And a degree from the JPII institute.

carrieloon:

So get started on the book.

Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[YinYangMom]

Carrieloon -

This thread is wonderful. You’ve received great references to books and retreats that should be most helpful. Isn’t this board great?!

I fully understand your feeling of being overlooked, taken for granted and that more than anything, it’s that overall feeling you would like changed. Your suggesting a more active sex life could do the trick, or at the very least some romance, but I’m not so sure that even with those changes you’d lose that feeling all together.

There’s more to this issue than how to do this, or how to do that. I sense something deeper in you, and in your husband on an individual personal level which neither of you seem comfortable discussing with each other.

That post about your husband not being comfortable praying with you speaks volumes! That shows he does not have an understanding of what a Catholic sacramental marriage is.

For you, I can’t quite put my finger on it, but when I went through that phase of feeling taken for granted (mostly when the children were little, not at all since they were teens) I had to do some honest reflection on where the source of my insecurity came from. It wasn’t really about my husband or my kids, but something from the way I was raised.

Even though your husband reads Catholic books, if he doesn’t recognize your marriage is at risk, I don’t know that you’ll succeed in getting him to read any of these wonderful materials on your own. A Catholic how-to book (if you ever find one) would probably offend him.

Real communication seems to be missing here between the two of you. I would suggest Catholic marriage counseling. Perhaps start with the Marriage Encounter weekend and then branch out to therapy for your marriage specifically because there are issues you both need to explore in order to come to an understanding about them and how they are affecting your relationship.

Check with your priest for references. Meet with a couple of therapists on your own to find one who you feel your husband would feel comfortable with, then ask your husband to do this for your marriage. If you both are completely open and honest with the therapists you should be on your way to a healthier happier marriage within weeks or months.

 

[carrieloon]

Steve,
Oh, see I thought he wrote the book first and then got the degree. At any rate, I know you will be successful just for the mere fact that it will be unique in its class!

Yin,
You had some great suggestions. We would both love to attend a marriage encounter and I have been toying around with the idea for years.
I wanted to stress that I am not just feeling taken for granted, I am indeed being taken for granted. My husband would freely admit to this, were he here. He even told me last night that when our kids are grown things will be back to normal. HOW he expects me to even remember what normal is by then is beyond me. In my opinion, a husband cannot withhold his desire from his wife (due to job stress, kids or whatever) for twenty YEARS and then expect to pick up right where you left off.

As far as my insecurity, there are definitely some childhood issues there for me, too. I would have to say that overall I am a very confident person and believe that I am attractive. I do not have low self esteem. Well, I should say that I have situational low self esteem because I do not feel all that desirable when around him–at TIMES. We do have a satisfying life together and are very happy. I know I am painting a bleak picture here but I am having a bad couple of days.

Thanks for your thoughts and for those that have been…do the Marriage Encounter weekends encourage putting your spouse first in your life? That is a key element here…he is so worn out from getting up early for Mass every day, working all day long, then playing with kids that there is nothing left for me. He sees no other alternative, as Mass and work and kids are duties that must be done. I can wait. I’m not going anywhere. I am here for life and have no alternative but to wait for him to open his eyes and SEE ME.

Oops there I go being negative again. I am usually a very positive, cheerful person. I am going through a rough patch and thank you all for listening.

Carrie

 

[Ham1]

Carrie,

Great thread and thank you for sharing.

Since you have made reference to “technical” aspects, etc, it occurs to me to ask, was your sex life (for lack of a better word) different before the children? Or, has it always been this way? Have you spoken with him about this?

I am not a therapist or doctor, but I wonder if there might be something more than stress that causes your husband to never initiate marital intimacy.

God bless you!

 

[YinYangMom]

carrieloon:

I wanted to stress that I am not just feeling taken for granted, I am indeed being taken for granted. My husband would freely admit to this, were he here. He even told me last night that when our kids are grown things will be back to normal. HOW he expects me to even remember what normal is by then is beyond me. In my opinion, a husband cannot withhold his desire from his wife (due to job stress, kids or whatever) for twenty YEARS and then expect to pick up right where you left off.

:bigyikes: Oh, that isn’t going to do at all.
The sad thing is I think I can relate to where he’s coming from because I had that same attitude with my husband for a while…especially when the little ones were draining me of all my energy. Roles are reversed here though…he’s drained himself by committing to so many outside obligations - including being an active Catholic. But it really is, as you noted, a matter of priorities. They are out of whack, as were mine. It took a lot of work for me to get them straight and a lot of patience on hubby’s part. Thankfully we didn’t wait for 20 years!

As far as my insecurity, there are definitely some childhood issues there for me, too. I would have to say that overall I am a very confident person and believe that I am attractive. I do not have low self esteem. Well, I should say that I have situational low self esteem because I do not feel all that desirable when around him–at TIMES. We do have a satisfying life together and are very happy. I know I am painting a bleak picture here but I am having a bad couple of days.

I get that, for the most part, life is good. But since he has admitted he has put you and your marital roles ‘on hold’ there’s no avoiding that feeling of resentment toward that attitude. It is not fair. It is not right. It is not Catholic. I should hope because he is as ‘spiritual’ as he is, you would be able to reach out to him on that level.

Hubby and I work with the FOCCUS couples at our church - the couples preparing for marriage - and in that inventory there is one trick question:

“I could never remain married to my spouse if he/she were ever unfaithful to me”

Most couples immediately assume ‘unfaithful = infidelity’ but the FOCCUS is very clear that there are many ways one can be unfaithful to the vows taken the day they were married. Being consumed by one’s hobbies, being consumed by work, committing to extended family events one after another, committing to too many charitable events…anything which knowingly takes away from the time needed to nurture the marriage fall in that category because it **is **putting those vows too low on the totem pole.

Your husband’s position of putting you and your marital relations on hold until the kids are grown places him in the position of being unfaithful to you. Perhaps you can approach him from that angle, since it clearly is against the guidelines of the Church and he seems to need to view himself and be viewed by others (except you, maybe) as being a good Catholic.

He expects you to ‘allow’ him the space to focus on his spiritual enrichment in his way, even though it’s a conscious choice to go it alone. The other thing FOCCUS centers on is the covenant of marriage. It is a committment for the two to become one - to grow spiritually together from that day forward. I think he missed that part of the vows.

Carrie