Quarrelsome Wives

[PetraG]

Regardless of the multifactorial circumstances leading to quarrelsome comments, attitudes, and actions, I am trying to see if other Christians have considered or have experiences with how it impacts a family.

No. Maybe it is because both my grandparents and parents always said it takes two to have a quarrel. My siblings and I always knew that the only surefire way to really set Dad off was to show disrespect towards Mom or to neglect to do what she asked. That’s not to say they never disagreed, but I can honestly say they never had a real quarrel that I was aware of.

It reminds me of a speaker who titled his talk, “How to Get Your Wife to Treat You Like a King.” His talk was about how to treat your wife like a queen…

OP, why do you think you’re only getting advice on how to change yourself? It’s because you are the only person you can change. Changing a quarrelsome person by treating the person in ways that help the person feel as if he or she is being listened to and taken seriously actually works a lot of the time, particularly if the listening starts in advance of the person getting quarrelsome about not being listened to. In any event, we can’t tell you how to change her simply because you can’t change her. You can only change yourself.

 

[tony22279]

Again to everyone that posted, thank you. Indeed, this turned into a marital advice session rather than shared experiences. For the many of you who offered advice, I know your heart is in the right place, and I thank you for your genuine concern. My wife and I have been married 9 years and have worked through struggles other than this in the past. Don’t worry, many of the struggles were my fault and areas I had to grow in. We have used many resources recommended on here, and we generally have a healthy marriage (that’s BOTH of us speaking). I also did find a few new recommendations in the thread so thank you for bringing those to my awareness. I believe I made a mistake by even mentioning my motivation to start this thread as it unintentionally provided the bait to help me be a better husband (or person!) rather than address the question.

To the many who justifiably argue that I should be dealing with the root causes of what I am (seemingly chauvinistically) calling “quarrelsome” behavior, you are right. And I am addressing those. …just not on this thread. If I ask the question “how have you seen a quarreling wife impact her home and marriage,” you need no further information to either address the question or choose to ignore the thread. If you don’t know what I mean by “quarrelsome,” state your own thoughts on what it means to be quarrelsome and provide your experience if relevant. I actually was very curious about that as well because I understand that my judgment and assessment is not always accurate. But I will also say that I did provide a non-specific definition to work with early in the thread: excessively argumentative or problematic for no justifiable reason. Simply asking others if there is someone out there who perhaps grew up in a quarrelsome home or who lost their marriage to this particular behavior is completely appropriate. It provides insight for a loving husband to both assess his own motivations to address the situation with his wife AND a greater context to speak from. It is one of the purposes of seeking wise counsel from experienced married couples and professionals as many of you recommended. To learn from the experiences of others… Also there were several comments about how the underlying causes are of core importance to the solution. I agree. I didn’t say they weren’t. I just said help me examine this part of the problem in isolation. One of the better arguments I saw was about how we don’t go to doctors and expect them to address something without identifying the underlying problem. Actually, doctors DO address both symptoms AND underlying problems. High blood pressure? Guess what, you’re possibly getting diuretics that don’t address your poor eating habits and sedentary lifestyle. A week into the flu? You’re getting throat lozenges and no antibiotics. Depressed? ADHD? I won’t even go there… Doctors (and all GOOD problem solvers) look to address issues at their root causes and the consequences or symptoms of them. It allows a stronger and more effective response.

 

[tony22279]

To anyone offended by the title of the post, I can say I understand where you are coming from, but you also may consider some self examination. I understand many women (more than men I would guess) are mistreated by their spouses so the term “quarrelsome wives” could be a bit abrupt when viewed from that angle. However, there simply ARE quarrelsome wives. There ARE quarrelsome husbands. There ARE disobedient children. There ARE unloving/unfaithful/disrespectful husbands/wives/children/CHRISTIANS etc… Saying there is one doesn’t negate the other. Toxic masculinity was even brought up in this thread. While a valid concept, it was not my intent to give this topic a sexist or gender-based bias. I did not imply that there isn’t equality in bad traits amongst all of us. If you saw this post and your mind immediately went that direction, perhaps ask yourself why. If it made your blood boil, perhaps thats an indication you have some growth to do in this area.

To anyone I annoyed, you’re just funny. I’m sure I can be annoying, and like any couple, my wife and I certainly annoy each other as any other married couple. Yes, I’m hard to deal with. So is she. We work through it. We’re committed. So we don’t simply threaten to leave each other to intimidate or coerce the behavior WE want to see in our spouse. It’s about what GOD wants to see in us. If I am finding her attitude as hard to deal with, is that not an indication that one of us is not living up to what’s expected of us? As a husband I am in the BEST position to see my wife day in and day out to make observations (and vice versa), but I must be clear minded to make my observations. That’s why I started to search quarrelsome wives (the term prompted by Proverbs) in hopes to find CHRISTIAN based views on the matter. I don’t think many millennial atheists will be describing each other as “quarrelsome” so my term was used specifically to seek advice based on “old religious books.” And I don’t usually find their advice very helpful or informed. In regards to mental health issues… in sickness and in health… I don’t dismiss the gravity of mental health in understanding a person’s actions, but in my wife’s case, it’s not the issue, and I DO have the experience and expertise to make that determination.

To the few that implied I am trying to use any information gained on this thread in attempts to harm my wife, make her feel bad, or to be manipulative in any other way, I don’t know what to say except I’ll pray for you. I am a loving husband trying to do what the Holy Spirit convicts my heart to do. I was hoping to gain some wisdom or experiences from within the Church. Your comments and implied accusations were stumbling blocks as you serve little purpose other than to confuse the thread and discourage other posters (and perhaps allow you to project onto me). Instead of telling me how you can’t assume enough information to address the question, why not assume I am coming from a good place and try to be of some help?

 

[tony22279]

Lastly, living with a quarrelsome [insert non-offensive or biased relation] is difficult. If it gets to the point where the person is NOT self-correcting after you ignore or forgive the behavior, it is a spouses’ DUTY to address the matter (in my opinion and the Catholic Church’s to my understanding). At this point, my wife’s behavior and attitude are disrupting our family from enjoying God’s peace in our home, and everyone in the house can sense it. I’m not going to justify it with specific examples (for reasons already mentioned) so if you simply don’t believe it’s possible that a wife having a “quarrelsome” attitude can stem simply from within her own mind and spirit, don’t post. A few other posters provided really good examples of what I am discussing, and some others I could include: discretely referencing prior arguments in front of company/children, excessive fault-finding, or even just combative body language/voice volume in response to normal daily interactions. Just one of the impacts I personally have witnessed: when you see a child start imitating these behaviors it is very hard to justify disciplining them when the behavior is modeled.

To you that shared and responded to the actual question, THANK YOU and I heard your posts loud and clear. I thank you for the support and being brave enough to go into the fray. Please keep commenting.

For future posters, in case you didn’t read all of this post (or any of the other comments you might be trying to respond to), I am not nor was ever seeking advice on how to approach the conversation with my wife. Nobody in public forums is discussing how a wife and mother’s quarrelsome behaviors can impact the family. I noticed this and wanted to see what the Church (meaning its MEMBERS) had to say. Just because I am posting this doesn’t mean that I don’t seek counsel from other appropriate sources. And before future posters become as hasty (and sometimes judgmental) as some of the previous ones, I do on a regular basis seek self-improvement for my own struggles and LISTEN to my wife when she complains about something I need to change.

I know this response will likely generate much criticism as the previous ones did, but I do ask that if you aren’t addressing your own experiences with quarrelsome people in the family, please don’t post. Understanding the impacts of quarreling is only ONE aspect of the problem I am looking into at the moment. Thank you to everyone for your time and effort to respond to a stranger. I can tell most of you are coming from a good place and I do appreciate that.

@TheLittleLady I’ve been reading this thread mostly on a computer. I went back and think most of my posts are well delineated by paragraph separations, but maybe you’re using your phone to view? In terms of writing, I’m really blogging here, but I completely understand your tip! Thank you.

 

[Xantippe]

why not assume I am coming from a good place and try to be of some help?

Why not assume that people offered the best advice that they had to give?

A few other posters provided really good examples of what I am discussing, and some others I could include: discretely referencing prior arguments in front of company/children, excessive fault-finding, or even just combative body language/voice volume in response to normal daily interactions.

Why are you assuming that there is no mental health issue in play?

I don’t care what your personal experience or expertise is, but even if you were a psychiatrist, you wouldn’t be allowed to diagnose or treat your wife. Mental health issues require outside third parties, not husband diagnosis.

Nobody in public forums is discussing how a wife and mother’s quarrelsome behaviors can impact the family.

I think that’s actually incorrect. There have been a number of posters who have discussed similar issues–it’s just that you need to try more search terms beyond “quarrelsome wives.” The internet contains lengthy discussions of every possible interpersonal conflict.

I note that you haven’t yet talked about what books you’ve read or your plans for meeting with your pastor or seeking counseling…

 

[Norseman82]

Stop doing and saying things that you know are going to bring on a quarrel.

Unfortunately, sometimes even the words “a”, “an”, and “the” will set some people off, as will the very fact that the object of their abuse is alive and breathing. Trust me, I had an alcoholic family member to deal with while growing up.

I would ask the OP the following:

1. Yes, define “quarrelsome” and whether it involves verbal / emotional abuse. Also, is this directed only at you, or also others (whether in the family or not)?
2. Are drugs / alcohol involved?
3. Could there be a medical / hormonal issue at play here? Possible bipolar disorder? Brain tumor? The “change”? Does this happen every 28 days or so?

 

[JMMJ]

As I said in my earlier post, either his wife was like this before they got married. In this case he needs to live with it. He knew full well what he was getting into. On the other hand, if something has changed to bring on this bitterness, he needs to figure out what it is so he can do his share in fixing it.

 

[PetraG]

If it gets to the point where the person is NOT self-correcting after you ignore or forgive the behavior, it is a spouses’ DUTY to address the matter (in my opinion and the Catholic Church’s to my understanding).

Parents have a duty to protect their children from harm, and perhaps you are referring to that.
No one has the moral duty to achieve change in a second party.

Yes, when a spouse engages in expressions of contempt, personal criticism, and defensiveness (that is, meeting complaints with counter-criticism), it damages the marriage. This can fall into the category of “you didn’t cause it, you can’t control it and you can’t cure it.” It is also considered the abuse of a child to force the child to witness the abuse of one of the child’s parents.

I am only saying that my parents and my grandparents simply did not quarrel, and according to them it is because they chose not to quarrel. They said they decided they wouldn’t and they didn’t. This is because the great-grandfather in the family, who had what you’d describe as a quarrelsome wife, decided he wasn’t going to quarrel with her. Take that for what it’s worth; free advice is worth what you pay for it.

 

[tony22279]

Thank you for the example of your parents and grandparents. In regards to my duty to achieve change, it think that is slightly mis-stated. My wife is responsible for her salvation, as are my children. Being blessed to be in a family with each other does come with some responsibilities in God’s eyes. See the CCC starting para. 2214. That particular part doesn’t justify my claim, but a priest I like to listen to is Fr. Ripperger who posts philosophical discussions online, often on Youtube. He was the one who helped me understand my relationship with my wife and how our marriage is a union that is ideally resultant in the perfection of one another before we pass on to meet God.

 

[tony22279]

Quarrelsome defined in two posts now. Neither of us do any drugs or drink. Hormonal issues definitely at play and there are “cycles” to certain stressors in our home. This particular one pervades throughout the month.

Does this information help you relay an experience of quarrelsome marriages in your own family?

 

[tony22279]

Your earlier post was ignored because it was off topic. However, I appreciate your persistence. We have been married for nearly a decade. People change; we are dynamic creatures. If we didn’t, what would be the hope in Jesus’ message? Attending marriage seminars? Seeing counselors? Sometimes we develop bad habits, sometimes good. What if she begins cheating on me and she cheated on someone else before coming to Christ? Am I to simply “live with it” and ignore my wife’s transgression? Are people not expected to grow through our life experiences?

Oh forgot to add, does my response or validation of your previous statement help you discuss how you have seen quarreling in marriages impact a family?

 

[JMMJ]

Children who witness regular and full-throttled quarreling in a marriage usually grow up to believe that it is normal. If they don’t grow up to believe it is normal, they usually grow up with great disdain for the parents who raised them. Neither scenarios is good, so it is important that a husband and wife learn how to live a peaceful existence without regular quarreling.

With regards to the rest of your post, some people are just contrarians by nature. If this is your wife, and you knew it when you married her, then I would say you need to adjust your own behavior to keep her contrarianism at bay. Don’t incite her, and don’t push her buttons. I know it sounds unfair, but if you knew what you were getting when you married her, how fair is it to her that you are looking to change it now?

 

[tony22279]

Thank you for the response. She was not like this when we married or prior. Maybe at times, but not as persistent. Again though, not to be mean, but at no point in my original post or response did I genuinely seek your opinion of my spouse or what I “should” be living with according to you.

If I was an alcoholic “by nature” before I got married and my wife realized how detrimental it was to our marriage and family, should I tell her to “deal with it?” Its a fundamental fallacy in your thinking. God has expectations for those seeking Him.

The marital relationship is many things in life, and your simplistic denotion of me trying to “change” my wife seems to hinder your thoughts on the matter. I want her to realize how her actions can impact things.

Basically, im seeking a testimonial in this thread. They’re very common. Also, “don’t incite her, don’t push her buttons…” What if I were an abusive husband? Would you tell her the same?

 

[JMMJ]

So a couple of thoughts…

No where in your posts did you say your wife’s bickering rises to the level of abuse. If that is the case, then this is the wrong thread. Abuse is never OK.

However, whether she is abusive or not, children raised in this environment learn what they are exposed to. They witness abuse? They learn what abuse is. They witness general complaining and obstinence? That is what they become aware of and learn.

My responses to your question are valid, because what I am saying is the effect of your wife’s behavior, and the way you react to it (assuming you don’t incite her in any way) is that your kids are going to learn that it is how life is lived. Now they will either grow up (as I did in a similar situation) and say, “My God I will never fight with my spouse. I can’t stand the bickering. It doesn’t matter who started it, they both engage and it is a terrible way to live.” or, they will grow up and say “Yep. This is the way marriage is supposed to be.” Neither one is a lesson in how to love your spouse in an honest and joyful way.

At my age, I still wonder how and why my parents bickered like that. I know they loved eachother. If I didn’t know better, I would just say they were too lazy to figure out a better way to communicate. They weren’t lazy people, though, so that can’t be right.

I am very sorry you are suffering this way. My best advice is to not lace the situation with a religious view. Religion really has little to nothing to do with this. Get into a good marriage counselor and do the good, hard work that will reap rewards. If your wife won’t go, then go by yourself. The only way this will be completely fixed is for both of you to really want it.

 

[Xantippe]

I am only saying that my parents and my grandparents simply did not quarrel, and according to them it is because they chose not to quarrel. They said they decided they wouldn’t and they didn’t. This is because the great-grandfather in the family, who had what you’d describe as a quarrelsome wife, decided he wasn’t going to quarrel with her.

I’ve started to have a certain amount of teen kid experience, and one of the biggest lessons is that even if the kid sets out a topic for argument…I don’t have to pick it up.

 

[JMMJ]

What did I say that would give you the impression I wasn’t Catholic? There is nothing non-Catholic in my post.

 

[JMMJ]

Also, do you even know what my original question was?

Your initial request was for some information on how a “quarrelsome wife” impacts her family.

I am sorry if you don’t find my experience helpful. I find your communication techniques to be difficult to follow. Perhaps that is causing your wife some issues, too?

Nonetheless, the posters here don’t seem to be giving you what you want. I am going to bow out now, since you aren’t finding my posts helpful.

Best of luck.

 

[Xantippe]

The faith-based book I’m reading currently is Love and Respect in the Family.

None of what you asked has anything to do with CATHOLIC families experiences of quarrel in the home.

That’s not a Catholic book, is it?

I don’t know that particular book, but I know that there is a lot of criticism of his book Love and Respect and I fear that his approach is very likely to be unproductive. (Men need respect but women need love–as if those were completely unrelated concepts.)

As to your specific point about me not offering specifically Catholic resources on your question (the impact of quarrelsome wives on the family), you didn’t originally ask for specifically Catholic resources. I’m offering the best materials I have to offer and the ones that have had the most impact on my thinking. The subject you’re talking about (resolving marital conflict) is a matter of general interest, and one that a lot of people from different faith perspectives have talked about, and I would no more limit myself to Catholic books on reducing conflict than I would limit myself to Catholic books on diet or exercise. If it works, it doesn’t matter whose idea it is.

Again, you really could not do better than to read the book How Not to Hate Your Husband After Marriage with your wife and reflect on how it relates to your family. It’s $12 and you could spend 4 hours on it and change your life. Why not do it?

Also, you’re posting on a Catholic forum and getting advice from mostly Catholic people, many of whom have been married a really long time.

 

[Xantippe]

Children who witness regular and full-throttled quarreling in a marriage usually grow up to believe that it is normal. If they don’t grow up to believe it is normal, they usually grow up with great disdain for the parents who raised them.

Yeah. I’ve talked about this a number of times on CAF before, but I grew up seeing my parents (and I now realize that my dad was the instigator) having regular screaming arguments. In the OP’s terms, my dad was the “quarrelsome” one. I grew up deeply admiring my dad, so I thought of this behavior as normal.

On the other hand, now that I’ve gotten some distance and perspective, I don’t respect how my parents chose to live when I was a kid, and I think it set me a terrible example. Realizing that my dad was in the wrong has enabled me to move on and try to live a better life, but it means that I’ve had to revise my childhood beliefs about my dad.

At some point, I heard my dad quoting a coworker talking about going home from a hard day and yelling at his wife because “your wife will forgive you but your boss won’t.” That was the code my dad lived by when I was a kid, and I think it stinks.

 

[JMMJ]

I am so sorry you had to live like that. I completely understand, especially the part of having to re-evaluate the way you grew up. I think all healthy adults do that, but this kind of thing can make it so much more painful than it needs to be. Good for you that you recognized things for what they were, and that you decided not to perpetuate it through another generation.

My parents never fought about big stuff. It was always about “toilet paper” type things (You, know…which way is it supposed to hang?). Such stupid stuff. We had a large family and they would create upset for everyone within earshot. To a large extent, I credit them with the very small family I have of my own. I just couldn’t risk inflicting that kind of pain on multiple kids.

Anyhow, OP asked for consequences and I believe we have done a good job of letting him know what those could be.