Question for Lutherans

[ComplineSanFran]

You may think that but I sure don’t. You need to check into the protestant sources for more information. Or look in the phone book.God Bless, Memaw

Is there an emoji for banging the head? Someone? Anyone?

 

[Picky_Picky]

Is there an emoji for banging the head? Someone? Anyone?

:banghead:

 

[steido01]

Is there an emoji for banging the head? Someone? Anyone?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I’ve got you covered.

 

[Duane1966]

Depends on who you ask.

It always does. I just think it’s funny that many of the reformers could care less about AS, yet some of ther evil spawn are scrambling for it.

P.s. I am joking about the spawn.

P.p.s. Also joking about evil.

 

[GKC]

It always does. I just think it’s funny that many of the reformers could care less about AS, yet some of ther evil spawn are scrambling for it.

P.s. I am joking about the spawn.

P.p.s. Also joking about evil.

Chesterton is watching.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

You should know, you’ve belonged to at least 2 of them. God Bless, Memaw

This response is insulting and demands to be brought to the attention of a moderator.

 

[JonNC]

It always does. I just think it’s funny that many of the reformers could care less about AS, yet some of ther evil spawn are scrambling for it.

P.s. I am joking about the spawn.

P.p.s. Also joking about evil.

The Lutheran reformers supported AS. Some have maintained it since the Reformation. Apostolic means more than just AS.

Jon

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Agree. And I also agree with Don Ruggero that insulting posts do not belong here.

Are we done?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Agreed. It would be very nice if the participants of the Catholic Answers Forum conducted themselves in the spirit of Our Holy Father, Pope Francis.

In his audience with the Methodists in April, the Pope said:

*I offer warm greetings to you in this Easter season, as we celebrate the resurrection of our Lord who enlightens the whole world. We come together united in the faith that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised him from the dead. This baptismal faith makes us truly brothers and sisters. I greet also the bodies that you represent: the World Methodist Council, the Methodist Council of Europe and the Methodist Church in Britain.

I was pleased to learn of the opening of the Methodist Ecumenical Office in Rome. /…/ May the Lord bless the work of the office and make it a place where Catholics and Methodists can encounter one another and grow in appreciation of one another’s faith, /…/ May it also be a place where the progress achieved through our theological dialogue is made known, celebrated, and advanced.

Almost fifty years have passed since our joint commission began its work. Catholics and Methodists have much to learn from one another in how we understand holiness and how it can be lived out.*

The growth from dialogue is mutual. As Catholics, we have something to offer for the enrichment of the dialogue partner – but whether it is from Methodists or Lutherans, Catholics as individuals and institutionally have much we can learn – this has been emphasised by the last three popes.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

You may think that but I sure don’t. You need to check into the protestant sources for more information. Or look in the phone book.God Bless, Memaw

Actually, given what you have just written, I am curious. Given how you are formulating what you are writing, could you explain how what you write fully and accurately conforms to The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism, issued by the Holy See to Catholics, even when they are speaking at the individual level, on issues related to dialogue between Catholics and Non-Catholics.

This is a public forum that is published forever on the Internet, so this is not a private conversation nor is it ephemeral. As the Catholic Answers Forum itself says, Catholics and non-Catholics come to this website and read what is written here and so Catholics speaking here would have to conform to directives from the Holy See and submit to the authority of the Holy See…they should also reflect the statements of the diocesan ecumenical office in the diocese to which the poster belongs.
*From par. 4:
The Directory is addressed to the Pastors of the Catholic Church, but it also concerns all the faithful

From par. 6:
The Directory intends to motivate, enlighten and guide this activity, and in some particular cases also to give binding directives in accordance with the proper competence of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.*
Catholic Answers is a public forum and so statements made by individual Catholics here, even if they are anonymous, are directly under competent ecclesiastical authority. Thus the directory says:
Furthermore, from the time of the Council onwards fraternal relations with Churches and ecclesial Communities which are not in full communion with the Catholic Church have intensified; theological dialogues have been set up and have increased in number. In his discourse to the plenary session of the Secretariat, which was dedicated to the revision of the Directory, the Holy Father noted that “the breadth of the ecumenical movement, the multiplication of dialogue statements, the urgent need that is felt for a greater participation by the whole People of God in this movement, and the consequent necessity of accurate doctrinal information, in view of a proper commitment, all of this requires that up-to-date directives be given without delay”. It is in this spirit and in the light of these developments that the revision of this Directory has been made.

 

[Memaw]

This response is insulting and demands to be brought to the attention of a moderator.

I wasn’t trying to be insulting, just stating a fact! He asked me what a protestant denomination was! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I wasn’t trying to be insulting, just stating a fact! He asked me what a protestant denomination was! God Bless, Memaw

His question was how you are using the term.

Your response, in turn, would have needed to conform to par. 19, 23…and, I would say, especially par. 87 above all.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

This seems a rather simplistic (and ambiguous) question. Maybe you need to ask a different one.

He had no problem answering when I asked about Lefebvre. Surely he can do the same for Luther.

The first poster is correct in his characterisation of the question. Frankly, as a question, it makes little sense to me.

If you wish a response to the question…

Father, at the end of the day, do you think what Martin Luther did was wrong?

…the response to you that reflects my personal thoughts on Martin Luther – and the Catholic reactions – at the end of a life that was dedicated in some small part to this concern, well…you have only to read From Conflict to Communion. It expresses my thought quite well and quite fully, I think.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

The great forces behind this document from the Catholic aspect of the dialogue are Cardinal Müller, Cardinal Koch, and a name perhaps less known in the English speaking world, Bishop Karlheinz Diez from the Diocese of Fulda.

Pope Francis spoke of this document when he received the Lutheran Archbishop of Sweden and her entourage during their official visit to the Holy See on May 4, 2015, aying:

*With appreciation I wish also to recall the recent document entitled From Conflict to Communion: Lutheran-Catholic Common Commemoration of the Reformation in 2017, published by the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission on Unity. It is with heartfelt hope that this initiative – with the help of God and through our cooperation with him and among ourselves – may encourage further steps in the path towards unity. *
It is a very special moment for Sweden, what with the canonisation of a new Swedish Saint after centuries – and one who was herself a tremendous person in interfaith dialogue before the Council – and the pending apostolic visit of the Holy Father to Sweden where he will inaugurate the year-long commemoration by Catholics of the Reformation and its 500th anniversary.

I trust that every Catholic reading this thread will embrace the invitation of His Holiness to commemorate this anniversary together with the Lutherans and, moreover, will join in the local commemorations organised by their diocesan bishops. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has embraced this initiative from the Holy See with great zeal and the bishops who compose the conference are organising events for the year long commemoration in their respective dioceses…some have already set up websites as they prepare to launch the commemoration.

 

[JonNC]

I wasn’t trying to be insulting, just stating a fact! He asked me what a protestant denomination was! God Bless, Memaw

And you didn’t answer my question. What communion I am a member of is irrelevant.

So, again, what do you think constitutes a Protestant denomination?

Jon

 

[JustaServant]

In order to understand history, you have to take yourself out of the time you are living in and step into the world Luther lived in. Transposing 21st century thought and attitudes is not really a good way of understanding the 1500s.
Let’s take a few things into consideration:

1. By the 1500s Europe had finally overcome the effects of the Black Plague, which took a toll of millions of Europeans. The 1500s were the result of a “baby boom” that brought a new era in Europe after centuries of plague and war. Immigrants were part of that boom. As many of them settled in Europe after these events took place.
2. This “new generation”, like the Boomers of the 1960s, wanted to throw off many of what they considered to be the “Medieval chains” around them. To overlook the radical “movements” that would transform Europe in the centuries after, is not a clear picture.
   3.These movements eventually led to, not just the Reformation, but the Enlightenment as well, and many strides in science, technology and exploration. The good came with the bad.

If you only see the 1500s through the Reformation only, you are only getting part of the picture. It was much bigger than that.
Luther was a product of his time.
The reasons for his split from the Church have largely disappeared and have been replaced with a common enemy: secularism.
Did Luther cause that? To say he did is a rather simplistic conclusion to a movement that was much bigger than Luther.
There are many things that have led us to the problems we face today, events that found it’s genesis in the 1500s and later.
Luther was a product of his age.
His mistake was allowing these historical forces around him to bring him to the point of separating from the Church. So, why do we have thousands of denominations? Is Luther alone to be blamed? Luther may have been a factor. But he was hardly the only factor to take into consideration.
He was caught up in a historical period.
That makes him human, not a devil.
Try to look at the larger picture.

 

[Duane1966]

The first poster is correct in his characterisation of the question. Frankly, as a question, it makes little sense to me.

If you wish a response to the question…

…the response to you that reflects my personal thoughts on Martin Luther – and the Catholic reactions – at the end of a life that was dedicate

d in some small part to this concern, well…you have only to read From Conflict to Communion. It expresses my thought quite well and quite fully, I think.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

The great forces behind this document from the Catholic aspect of the dialogue are Cardinal Müller, Cardinal Koch, and a name perhaps less known in the English speaking world, Bishop Karlheinz Diez from the Diocese of Fulda.

Pope Francis spoke of this document when he received the Lutheran Archbishop of Sweden and her entourage during their official visit to the Holy See on May 4, 2015, saying:

*With appreciation I wish also to recall the recent document entitled From Conflict to Communion: Lutheran-Catholic Common Commemoration of the Reformation in 2017, published by the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission on Unity. It is with heartfelt hope that this initiative – with the help of God and through our cooperation with him and among ourselves – may encourage further steps in the path towards unity. *

It is a very special moment for Sweden, what with the canonisation of a new Swedish Saint after centuries – and one who was herself a tremendous person in interfaith dialogue before the Council – and the pending apostolic visit of the Holy Father to Sweden where he will inaugurate the year-long commemoration by Catholics of the Reformation and its 500th anniversary.

What makes little sense to me,is how in one instance you can say that Archbishop Lefebvre was wrong for disobedience to the Holy Father, and not come right out and say that Luther’s disobedience to his Holy Father was just as wrong. And if his disobedience was wrong, in essence we are commemorating disobedience to the Holy Father.

 

[Memaw]

And you didn’t answer my question. What communion I am a member of is irrelevant.

So, again, what do you think constitutes a Protestant denomination?

Jon

In my opinion, (if I am allowed to have one), it is a protestant religious group, headed by a minister that meets at least on Sunday, not necessarily belonging to one of the larger protestant denominations. If you watch Journey Home on EWTN and listen to the many Protestant Minister that have joined the Catholic Church, they refer to the many protestant denominations, ( so I’m not the only one) even the store front ones. I know a few that even have it in their homes. Now tell me what you think constitutes a protestant denomination? My response to your question was, you should know better than me, you have belonged to 2 of them according to your own information.I’ve never belonged to any of them. I wasn’t being insulting!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

What makes little sense to me,is how in one instance you can say that Archbishop Lefebvre was wrong for disobedience to the Holy Father, and not come right out and say that Luther’s disobedience to his Holy Father was just as wrong. And if his disobedience was wrong, in essence we are commemorating disobedience to the Holy Father.

I agree, God Bless, Memaw

 

[OraLabora]

What makes little sense to me,is how in one instance you can say that Archbishop Lefebvre was wrong for disobedience to the Holy Father, and not come right out and say that Luther’s disobedience to his Holy Father was just as wrong. And if his disobedience was wrong, in essence we are commemorating disobedience to the Holy Father.

It makes perfect sense. What happened, happened. What is the current thinking of the Church on this? Her ecumenical efforts as put forth at Vatican II and afterwards is that we don’t look back on historical events that we cannot change, but move forward, try to find common ground with our separated brethren, and work towards more cooperation and unity. Moreover the Lutherans and many other Protestant groups are collaborating with these efforts. The days of hurling anathemas at them are long past, and we are long past the days when something could be done about Martin Luther’s acts.

As Fr. Ruggero pointed out we are of the same mind as the Holy Father when we ourselves collaborate with these efforts. And not just the current Pope, Francis, but two canonized saints, one beatified Pope, and the current Pope’s predecessor. The Church has moved away from the pain of the separation and now seeks reconciliation.

Unfortunately the SSPX continue to work against unity by carrying out illicit ordinations. The disobedience of Mgr Lefebvre and his successor continue to undermine the Church from within.

I see no contradiction at all.

 

[JonNC]

In my opinion, (if I am allowed to have one), it is a protestant religious group, headed by a minister that meets at least on Sunday, not necessarily belonging to one of the larger protestant denominations. If you watch Journey Home on EWTN and listen to the many Protestant Minister that have joined the Catholic Church, they refer to the many protestant denominations, ( so I’m not the only one) even the store front ones. I know a few that even have it in their homes. Now tell me what you think constitutes a protestant denomination? My response to your question was, you should know better than me, you have belonged to 2 of them according to your own information.I’ve never belonged to any of them. I wasn’t being insulting!! God Bless, Memaw

Why would you think you are not allowed an opinion? My original post was asking you just that?
Based on your definition, I have never been a member of a Protestant denomination, because neither the Lutheran synods I was a member of, nor the APA is a group of churches that are headed by a minister. Pastors at Lutheran churches are ordained into the Church, and commit themselves to the teachings of the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Anglicans are led by bishops.
This is the problem with the term Protestant. It has no modern meaning outside of a general or loose category of various western communions.

Jon