Question on Islam -- round 4

[Aydan]

What is unusual is that you are not required to use the Turkish equivalent, nor are you mandated to pray in a specific language. The god of the Muslims must be prayed to in Arabic, though we see evidence of Muhammadan scholars beginning to depart from the mandate for ***new ***converts. That way, Islam is more appealing to Christians and ***no ***Arabic speaker is permitted to pray in an other language.

Muslims try very hard, in the West, to make their god look as much like ours as possible. yet, keep his ***sacred ***name intact to distinguish him from any other deity. Put it this way, ‘Tanri’ means ‘God of the Morning’ in Turkish and while it may be a ***general ***word for God or a god, it is not the name of the Muhammadan god, Allah. They want us all to believe that ‘we all worship the same God’, when speaking to us, yet have a much different opinion when amongst themselves.

Look at it another way, in Greek, ‘theos’ is the general word for god/God, but I refer to Jesus Christ as ‘Kurios Theos’ [Lord God] or Jesus Christ, or Immanuel or as ‘ho logos’ The Word]. I would not refer to Him as ‘theos’ since the general word can indeed refer to ***any ***god.

of course that’s one of the things that make Catholicism so great is that no matter what language we speak we are all united as one. Yeah I’m aware that Muslims are required to pray in Arabic that’s one of the major reasons I didn’t become Muslim when I was exploring religions before I became a Christian. It never made sense to me because God understands all languages not just one.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well sister Amy,I have added something in my previous post,but it was too late because My net connection in Bangladesh is horribly slow.So please read my post again.And you wrote about tawheed.Well very well.Indeed you know what is it(tawhid).So since jewish people never believed trinity so according to islamic theory,Jews also understand tawhid.Now an off topic question,sorry for that.And that is,if jews understand tawhid then why they are kafir like US?because jews do not accept Muhammed as prophet,correct?So now My question is,who is important in Islam?Allah or one God?or the prophet hood of Muhammed?So Islam based on tawhid or the prophet hood of Muhammed?.thanks

Jews are not necessarily kuffar. Neither are Christians. A person has to reject the truth in order to be a kafir. Someone who is never exposed to the truth, therefore, cannot be a kafir. That’s why there are ayaat in the Qur’an about Jews and Christians, saying they won’t have fear or grieve. If all Jews or Christians were kuffar, those ayaat wouldn’t be there.

I saw the part you added to your post after I posted mine, but I replied only to the section quoted, and didn’t see any reason to change it since the rest of your post didn’t make much sense to me anyway. You might not know that the story of the flood is in the Bible, so you called it pagan. I dunno. I didn’t see the relevance.

 

[Lothair]

God’s Law. God’s Commandments. Full of wisdom, full of beauty

 

[morning_star777]

Jews are not necessarily kuffar. Neither are Christians. A person has to reject the truth in order to be a kafir. Someone who is never exposed to the truth, therefore, cannot be a kafir. That’s why there are ayaat in the Qur’an about Jews and Christians, saying they won’t have fear or grieve. If all Jews or Christians were kuffar, those ayaat wouldn’t be there.

Just a simple question,please answer me with,yes or no.Am I a Kafir?I was Muslim and then reject Islam and became atheist and then finally became Christian.So Am I a kafir?.

You might not know that the story of the flood is in the Bible, so you called it pagan.

I did not call it pagan.I wanted to say that pagans have also same flood story like Bible or Quran,hindus also have the same story.But that not mean that the pagans or hindus believe in Abrahamic God.

 

[Lothair]

The problem is the leap between Allah being a god the pagans knew, and Allah being a pagan god. The first statement is true, the second is false.

Both Allah and Rahman were pagan deities known to the Arabians. Allah was the Lord of the Pagan Kaaba and Rahman was a deity known to the Sabeans.

Ibraheem/Abraham worshiped Allah, and so did his son, Isma’eel/Ishmael. Ishmael came with his mother (Hajar/Hagar) to the Arabian peninsula and was left there by Abraham. He and his mother continued to worship Allah, and when the tribes came to the valley there, where the well of Zam-Zam was, they also learned about Allah.

Where is this story, using only the Quran to enlighten us? It seems to me that you are now relying on the Traditions to make your case. A very common tactic with the Muhammadans. Using the Sunnah whenever necessary, yet demanding that critics find evidence only from the Quran. What rubbish. Also, please read my article on ‘Abraham and the Kaaba’ for a critical analysis of Islamic claims regarding the Kaaba. How could Abraham have ever been to Mecca if Muhammad was the first prophet to his people?

It was several generations before idols were ever brought to Arabia–by the tribe of Khuza’a, a man named 'Amr ibn Luhayy. And so over time, idols were brought to Mecca, and the House which had been built by Abraham and his son began to house those idols

Here is one of the problems with this analysis. You see, the Quran says that once Allah sends a messenger to a people, he does not lead them astray [Q. 9:115]. So, there is just no way that Abraham could have been in Mecca, only to have the Kaaba later become a pagan shrine. Sorry, but it was ***always ***a pagan shrine, and still is.

But there was no idol for Allah. The Arabs knew Allah, but they used to set up partners with Him.

There was too an idol for Allah. The Arabs knew Allah because he was the Lord of the Kaaba. And guess what? He is still there. You call him the Black Stone.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Wow, so the murder of apostates is now ‘wise and beautiful’?

If God commanded it, wouldn’t you think so?

Here ya go Amy read]

Beautiful. Although, Robert Spencer doesn’t count as a source on Islam, last I checked.

Volume 2, Book 23, Number 457:
Narrated Abi Aiyub:

Once the Prophet went out after sunset and heard a dreadful voice, and said, “The Jews are being punished in their graves.”

Not all Jews. But those, for a particular reason. I wonder if you know why? You’d probably laugh, unless you take God’s Laws seriously.

Jihad is fighting in the cause of Allah, and is an outward struggle with ***weapons ***against any who resist the call to worship the god Allah. Christians and Jews are irreconcilable foes [2:113]. Here is the way it went down: Muhammad believed that references to him could be found in the Scriptures, yet when Christians and Jews searched and found nothing, he just accused them of concealing those parts which spoke of him source]. For that, Christians and Jews have been cursed by the pagan god Allah.

Yawn. Jihad means struggle, and it doesn’t always mean with weapons. It can mean fighting, but doesn’t have to. Please read my post if you wish to make comments on the subject.

I have absolutely no idea why you or the Mormons would take a copy-cat. But, I can tell you that false prophets and imposters shall deceive even the Elect [Mt 24:24]. You have been swindled.

I’m not a Mormon, have never been a Mormon, so please stop mentioning Mormons. You’re likely to confuse other readers.

And you didn’t answer my question at all. You called the Qur’an a “comfortable copy-cat.” Why did you call it that if you don’t know anything about it? What about it is so comfortable? You make it sound like it’s nothing but war war war all the time (which it’s not,) and if that’s your impression then I’d like to know why you think I found it ‘comfortable.’

 

[Sister_Amy]

Just a simple question,please answer me with,yes or no.Am I a Kafir?I was Muslim and then reject Islam and became atheist and then finally became Christian.So Am I a kafir?.

I am not qualified to answer. Sorry.

I did not call it pagan.I wanted to say that pagans have also same flood story like Bible or Quran,hindus also have the same story.But that not mean that the pagans or hindus believe in Abrahamic God.

Do you believe in the flood story?

 

[R_not]

I agree with you, and would like to expalin why. One, as I mentioned, one of the pagan gods known in Southern Arabia was Rahman, who was later relegated to a mere ‘attribute’ of Allah. So, at the minimum you have two separate gods, not merely titles of the same deity.

Muhammad is in fact a minor deity, though it ***seems ***of a lesser degree than his Allah/Rahman. How is it that Muhammad can be called a minor god? Well, the word ‘Muhammad’ means ‘the praised one’ yet the Quran states that all praise is ‘due to Allah’ [Q. 1:2; 6:1,45; 16:75]. So, if Muhammad is the ‘praised one’ and all praise is due to Allah, then Muhammad is ***either ***Allah or a minor god in the Arabian pantheon of gods. So, depending how you want to look at it, there are at least two gods [Allah/Rahman] and one minor god [Muhammad], unless Muhammad’s name is given its strictest possible meaning, then there are ***at least ***three gods [Allah/Rahman/Muhammad].

One ironic thing to consider. The word Rahman comes from the root word for ‘womb’, which is symbolic of the sacred feminine. So, if you were to start drawing lines to the various dots, the Muslims ***do ***worship a trinity: the **‘Allah’ **the **‘Mother/Womb’ **and the Praised One. Whether Muslims like it or not, Muhammad made up his own trinity, and added himself to it. Of course, this doesn’t even ***consider ***the ‘uncreated Quran’ or the Black Stone. At the end of the day, Muhammadans appear to have at least five gods. But, there are probably more.

Basically, you are saying (in islamic terms) that mohammed committed shirk. mohammed putting himself right up there with his god. There was a thread about that and muslims are not able to handle this subject very well.

There might be more. mohammed tried to put allah’s three daughters into his religion, but was advised to take them out. And that ‘book written by his god’ has a flaw in it since Satan got to write a few verses in it. oops, now we know that allah couldn’t make up its mind and then ‘blinked’, or paused, and Satan was able to insert some stuff into it too!

 

[Sister_Amy]

Both Allah and Rahman were pagan deities known to the Arabians. Allah was the Lord of the Pagan Kaaba and Rahman was a deity known to the Sabeans.

Abraham built the Ka’ba, so it was not a pagan house. Jews knew of Ar-Rahman, as do Muslims. Do you know about Ar-Rahman? I have answered your claims in previous posts and need not do so again.

Where is this story, using only the Quran to enlighten us? It seems to me that you are now relying on the Traditions to make your case. A very common tactic with the Muhammadans. Using the Sunnah whenever necessary, yet demanding that critics find evidence only from the Quran. What rubbish. How could Abraham have ever been to Mecca if Muhammad was the first prophet to his people?

I don’t demand critics of Islam find their evidence in the Qur’an unless they claim something is in the Qur’an. If they say something is in the Qur’an they ought to have to prove it. If they say something is in the Sunnah then they should prove that. Anyway, it is in the Qur’an that Abraham went to Mecca, and it was a barren valley, there were no people living there.

Here is one of the problems with this analysis. You see, the Quran says that once Allah sends a messenger to a people, he does not lead them astray [Q. 9:115]. So, there is just no way that Abraham could have been in Mecca, only to have the Kaaba later become a pagan shrine. Sorry, but it was ***always ***a pagan shrine, and still is.

You really should check your sources. That is not what 9:115 says. Here is what it says: And Allah would not let a people stray after He has guided them until He makes clear to them what they should avoid. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of all things. People do not stray until they know what is right, and what is wrong, and they choose what is wrong.

There was too an idol for Allah. The Arabs knew Allah because he was the Lord of the Kaaba. And guess what? He is still there. You call him the Black Stone.

Never once has a Muslim ever referred to Allah as the Black Stone. The black stone is a rock, with no power to help anyone, or harm anyone. Allah is the Lord of the Worlds. The Arabs knew Allah was the Lord of the Ka’ba, just like you said, because Abraham and Ishmael built the Ka’ba and told the people what it was, and who Allah was.

 

[Lothair]

If you say Al-Lat you aren’t saying “Allah” are you? More to the point, Al-lat is not a feminine form of the name “Allah” either

Yes it is the feminine form of Allah read], in classical Arabic. Stop lying to me, if not to yourself. Also, Allah DID have three daughters, and was recast with a new and improved theology and history in the 7th century, and not first by your ‘praised one’. Hanifa poets were all over the Hijaz. Not only is Muhammad a fake, he wasn’t even the ***original ***fake.

When was the first time the word “God” was ever used?

You mean in English?

There is but one Allah, One God Worthy of Worship. He created you, and He created me. I choose to worship Him. Do you?

I do worship God, and I am insulted that you continue to disrespect me by insisting that my God is in fact your pagan god Allah. See, I can play the victim too!

 

[Jay53]

Do you take Lothair to be an expert on Islam now? I think he fancies himself one, but anyway. I answered your question. I tend to use Allah as a proper name myself because I read in the Qur’an where Allah names himself as “Allah.” So since “God” revealed a book calling Himself “Allah” but never revealed a book calling Himself “God” I choose to use, for myself at least, what He said.

I did not say Lothair was an expert - I just thanked him for his information.
So you are saying God specifically changed His name to “Allah”? How does this reconcile with Exodus?

Book Of Exodus
11 And Moses said to God: Who am I that I should go to Pharao, and should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said to him: I will be with thee: and this thou shalt have for a sign, that I have sent thee: When thou shalt have brought my people out of Egypt, thou shalt offer sacrifice to God upon this mountain. 13 Moses said to God: Lo, I shall go to the children of Israel, and say to them: The God of your fathers hath sent me to you. If they should say to me: What is his name? what shall I say to them? 14 God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you. 15 And God said again to Moses: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me to you: This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

About prayers being in Arabic, what is suspect about that? Weren’t Catholic homilies delivered in Latin until recently? Now what could possibly be the point of that? Was it suspect, to you? The prayer in Islam called salaat, and only salaat, needs to be in Arabic, because in includes recitation of the Qur’an, which is only in Arabic, as it was revealed. Muslims pray exactly the same, all over the world, and this can only happen with a universal standard. All Muslims learn enough Arabic at least to pray these prayers and understand them.

I am only suspect of prayers that are REQUIRED to be said in Arabic - as if God doesn’t understand them or will not accept them in another language.

But it’s kind of bizarre to argue that Arabic prayers mean Allah, whom you call God, cannot understand something in another language. Especially since He is All-Knowing and All-Wise, and hears and knows and understands everything we say, even what we think. And Muslims can pray all their other prayers in any language.

I agree that God can understand anything/everything. That’s why I was asking about why certain prayers have to be in Arabic - as if that somehow makes them better/more pleasing to God. ???

And I will say that obviously Christians have a false understanding of the One True God, whom they believe actually walked on earth as a human being, so clearly Satan has led them to excesses in their religion.

Obviously, I disagree.

 

[morning_star777]

Do you believe in the flood story?

I only believe the Noah’s flood story in Bible.

 

[Jay53]

I am not qualified to answer. Sorry.

Who would be qualified to answer?

 

[R_not]

Reading sister amy’s posts requires one to just scramble up the brains and throw out all facts, maybe even throw out all one’s brains too. Step on them, pounce on them and then put them back in the skull - and then one may be able to take it.

I just don’t know how someone who has told us that she is college educated can not do any research and find that what she is spouting to us is pure fabrication!

More on sharia laws from (source: Fascism and Paganism, A brief Comparison of Nazism, Communism and Islam). And at this point in the fiction that we are reading from sister amy, this might clarify her complete brainwashing. We can see how this affects a seemingly educated person.

page 146:

islam does not render anything to anyone. the person is completely submerged in islamic doctrines and orders. Such submission takes the form of obedience not only to koranic doctrine but also to the interpreters of the koran - be they mullahs, dictators, or fascists. islam is the perfect ideological cover for fascism. Much like Nazi paganism, islam elevates the group over the individual, conformity over individualism, tradition over science, ritual over dynamism, and communalism over free will. mohammed himself declared that he was not only a ‘prophet’ but also the ruler of islam. The so called ‘prophet’ acted out political and military decisions just as any secular ruler did. mohammed decreed and most muslims accept, that allah wants the state and the church to be one. This is indicated by sharia law… cont’d…

As with Hitlerism and Leninism, the creation of the sharia law ensures that society is managed by a clerical, or party, elite that interprets the pagan scriptures for the dull, uncomprehending mass. Sharia gives the clerical elite the power of interpretation and subjects all muslims to this rather arbitrary and arcane source of AD 9th century legal codification. … cont’d…

…

This totality of islam embedded in the sharia and koranic law shares many ideological traits found in Nazism and communism. …

 

[Lothair]

Abraham built the Ka’ba, so it was not a pagan house. Jews knew of Ar-Rahman, as do Muslims. Do you know about Ar-Rahman? I have answered your claims in previous posts and need not do so again

Abraham was never in Mecca and had nothing to do with building the pagan Kaaba. It cannot be found anywhere in the patriarchal journeys [Gen 12-50]. Muhammad made it up to give some monotheistic cover to a pagan shrine.

That is not what 9:115 says. Here is what it says: And Allah would not let a people stray after He has guided them until He makes clear to them what they should avoid You really need to think before you post. According to your analysis of the verse, Abraham was in Mecca and shared the name of Allah with the locals, but did not teach them what was right and what was wrong. Or, it was Allah himself who later intentionally lead them astray?. After all, they then went astray. Again I’ll advise you think it through before you post. You make God and Abraham both look like fools or just mean. It seems that your Allah spends a lot of time veiling hearts [6:25] and leading folks astray [2:6,7]. How could the Meccans understand a message that Allah has blocked them from hearing [18:57].

 

[R_not]

Fascism and Paganism, A brief Comparison of Nazism, Communism and Islam

page 149

islam has preached … the equality of all freeborn male muslims. However, musim women and slaves are, of course, not considered equal. islam is supremacist since it excludes people on the basis of belief, sex, and religiosity. sura XXIV states that slavery is a permanent institution, and many other suras state that women are the property of men. There is also legal and systemic discrimination based on sex and religion. Akin to Hitler’s race-based fanaticism or Stalin’s anticapitalist, anti-Western class-based struggle, salvation outside the islamic ideology is impossible. The world is thus divided between muslims and non-muslims. islam (like Hitlerism and Stalinism, though in a different manner) is certainly not only a supremacist but also a racist ideology. The koran makes this apparent with its appeal to believers and its cry to eliminate, convert or conquer non-believers.

It is useful to read the koran to get a sense of the profundity of its racism and supremacism…

So when I read that someone, especially a woman, loves sharia - it makes me sick. slavery, racism, supremacy, etc… this is what sharia is all about.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes it is the feminine form of Allah read], in classical Arabic. Stop lying to me, if not to yourself. Also, Allah DID have three daughters, and was recast with a new and improved theology and history in the 7th century, and not first by your ‘praised one’. Hanifa poets were all over the Hijaz. Not only is Muhammad a fake, he wasn’t even the ***original ***fake.

Are you trying to be as offensive as possible? Or does it happen by accident? Allah isn’t a word that can be made feminine, and Al-lat is a completely different word altogether. Hanifa poets? I bet your next claim is that there’s a qur’an before Muhammad, too. Check this, what Allah says about the idols the Arabs made up: They are not but [mere] names you have named them - you and your forefathers - for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance. (53:23)

You mean in English?

Why, does it appear in another language?

I do worship God, and I am insulted that you continue to disrespect me by insisting that my God is in fact your pagan god Allah. See, I can play the victim too!

Allah is not a pagan god, and I request that you discontinue saying so. I worship the Creator of the heavens and the earth. Do you?

 

[Lothair]

Do you know about Ar-Rahman? I have answered your claims in previous posts and need not do so again.

Amy, you haven’t answered anything. The Jews never called the God of Israel ‘Allah’, and if they had, a Prophet would have been annointed by God to put an end to such a charade. Your reliance on sound alike words from closely related languages is sophmoric. To use similar cognates in language to transform your pagan god into God is blasphemy.

Abraham went to Mecca, and it was a barren valley, there were no people living there.

Then tell me, why on earth would Allah send Abraham all the way from his tents and herds and wells in Canaan to the desolate wilderness in the Hijaz?! The story you have cited is just fiction to give cover to a pagan shrine.

Never once has a Muslim ever referred to Allah as the Black Stone

Lady, your PROPHET called that rock his Allah! His family had been worshipping rocks for centuries! Until he was 40 years old he sacrificed animals to stacks of rocks in the Kaaba.

The black stone is a rock, with no power to help anyone, or harm anyone. Allah is the Lord of the Worlds. The Arabs knew Allah was the Lord of the Ka’ba, just like you said, because Abraham and Ishmael built the Ka’ba and told the people what it was, and who Allah was

Your Allah Stone has no power to help or hurt anyone, I agree. But, that doesn’t change the fact that Allah was just another stone god in the Hijaz, whose idol was placed next to the graven image of Hu’Baal.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I did not say Lothair was an expert - I just thanked him for his information.
So you are saying God specifically changed His name to “Allah”? How does this reconcile with Exodus?

No, I’m not saying the Lord of the Worlds, God Almighty ever changed his name. Do you want me to say that, or something?

I am only suspect of prayers that are REQUIRED to be said in Arabic - as if God doesn’t understand them or will not accept them in another language.

But that’s not the case. Because He says in the Qur’an: And when My servants ask you, [O Muúammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided.(2:186)

I agree that God can understand anything/everything. That’s why I was asking about why certain prayers have to be in Arabic - as if that somehow makes them better/more pleasing to God. ???

No. First we must examine the purpose of the prayer in the first place, which is to remember God. It is not God who needs our prayers, but we who need to make them. This is a crucial distinction. Alhamdulillah means that all praise is for God whether we praise Him or not. The reason the prayers are in Arabic is for us, not for Him. That way we all pray the same way, without changes in meaning or anything.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Who would be qualified to answer?

A judge who examined all circumstances in the case.