Question on Islam -- round 4

[Sister_Amy]

In what circumstances would a judge be called in to determine this?

The circumstances being that an Islamic state exists and for some reason it’s at war, and a person apostates from Islam. Probably more than that but it’s not my area of expertise.

 

[SteveLohr]

There will be no killing. Every one will keep on believing in their own religion and there will be no religious war from Islam side. There will be no killing. There will be no bloody Mahdi as some of the Shias and Sunnis are hoping for a bloody Mahdi who will come and kill all unbelievers and that he will not even accept any repentence. He will not even accept conversion to Islam.

It is wrongly believed by some Sunni and Shia sects of Islam that a Bloody Mahdi will come near the end of times who will be helped by the old old Jesus (son of Mary) to kill the anti-christ (Dajjal). That is all false belief, again only being in some Hadith, not in the Quran at all.

Planten-
I’m just curious-Do you reject all Hadith and Sunna, or just some of them? If you accept some, what is the criteria you use to determine which you accept and which you reject?

 

[Aydan]

No, you don’t. Yes, I do.

yep I do too! I believe in one God the Father son and the Holy Spirit I really wish Muslims would quit saying we don’t believe in God because we don’t agree with their concept of allah. Seriously Amy why did you say that homilies are given in Latin when that is not true? The only time Latin is used is when you are at a traditional Latin Mass and of course the holy Father says Mass in Latin because not only is that the traditional language of our church but also because pilgrims come from all over the world so it is impossible to say Mass in every language at once for everyone there so there must be a common language used and that is Latin. Otherwise the homely is given in the same language as the rest of the Mass.

 

[Sister_Amy]

You have been listening too much to unlearned sources. Latin and English too are closely related, but in Latin the word for pen is ‘penis’, which has a whole diffent meaning in English. I could place the lexicons of English, Spanish and Latin side by side and see many similar words that had ***totally ***different meanings. I’ll give you another. In Spanish a ‘plumma’ is a pen, but in English a ‘plume’ is a set of feathers or a puff of smoke. Yet, they are spelled nearly the same. In Hebrew ‘Allah’ has never refered to God and forcing your theology out of Hebrew is, yes, sophmoric.

If you ever learn what a Semitic language is, maybe we can continue this discussion. Your understand is apparently sophomoric, to use your word, although I spelled it correctly.

lol, and build a temple in the middle of the Hijaz with absolutely no one near it. Right.

Right. And Abraham was told to call the people to make a pilgrimage there! You might think nobody heard, but when a person is sincere, God can multiply their deeds. Abraham obeyed God and you know what? Millions of people make that pilgrimage every single year.

You need to read the Sirat that discuss your prophet’s intellectual development. He ate meat sacrificed to idols until Zaid b. Amr talked him out of it.

Is it my fault if you don’t understand the story?

No, you don’t. Yes, I do.

That’s mature of you. Tell me, how do you worship the Creator of the heavens and the earth? Do you fall on your face in prayer as did His prophets and messengers? No wait… I do that.

 

[Sister_Amy]

yep I do too! I believe in one God the Father son and the Holy Spirit I really wish Muslims would quit saying we don’t believe in God because we don’t agree with their concept of allah.

It would be kind of you do not accuse me of saying something I never said.

Seriously Amy why did you say that homilies are given in Latin when that is not true? The only time Latin is used is when you are at a traditional Latin Mass and of course the holy Father says Mass in Latin because not only is that the traditional language of our church but also because pilgrims come from all over the world so it is impossible to say Mass in every language at once for everyone there so there must be a common language used and that is Latin. Otherwise the homely is given in the same language as the rest of the Mass.

Not “are given in Latin.” Were given in Latin.

 

[SteveLohr]

gods dress up like angels now?

He quotes a random shaykh from Saudia, with whom I have no quarrel, and then he quotes some random Iranian anti-Semite, who I do have a problem with. Islamic sources don’t exist for 14 centuries to be contradicted by random people. And on top of that problem, Robert Spencer is not an authority on Islam.

.

Sister Amy-I’m afraid you are wrong on Mr. Spencer. He quotes extensively from the Quran, and the Haddith, and he cites Islamic scholars and Islamic History. He is well versed in the Quran, and comments extensively on it. In fact, he had an entire series “Blogging the Quran” that lasted for several years. When he quotes from scholars, it is to illustrate how mainstream Islamic scholars (or significant minority scholars) interpret Islam.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy-I’m afraid you are wrong on Mr. Spencer. He quotes extensively from the Quran, and the Haddith, and he cites Islamic scholars and Islamic History. He is well versed in the Quran, and comments extensively on it. In fact, he had an entire series “Blogging the Quran” that lasted for several years. When he quotes from scholars, it is to illustrate how mainstream Islamic scholars (or significant minority scholars) interpret Islam.

I am not unfamiliar with Robert Spencer. Although he does cite authentic Islamic sources, he frequently relies on poor/inaccurate translations, or quotes them only partially or out of context. He does not typically quote from mainstream Islamic scholars, but spends more time reporting from the fringe and trying to pretend it is mainstream.

The attacks that Spencer makes against Islam are frequently based on weak information, and more often ignore the classical interpretations.

In other words, he deliberately distorts the truth to mislead the people about Islam.

So he is not an authority on Islam. His opinion is meaningless to Muslims. If you think one of his claims has validity, then bring the evidence, and I’m more than happy to discuss it. But his blogs, books, and websites do not count as evidence to me. If he’s telling the truth, then let’s look at the sources.

Edited to add: I’m not sure if it was Spencer or someone else, but Booklover and I had a go not long ago where she was trying to quote a source that doesn’t actually exist–something many of those who attack Islam try to do. It’s deceitful, in my opinion, to not list the real source, lest they be forced to admit its weakness.

 

[Aydan]

It would be kind of you do not accuse me of saying something I never said.

Not “are given in Latin.” Were given in Latin.

okay fine but even when they were given in Latin we all understood them because people were actually taught Latin I don’t need to fall on my face to pray to God because I can look up the sky without fear of my eyes being harmed nor do I have to have set prayer times or am I required to recite certain things and that works just fine and we don’t have to pray like you do because we kneel to show our respect same concept.

 

[Sister_Amy]

okay fine but even when they were given in Latin we all understood them because people were actually taught Latin I don’t need to fall on my face to pray to God because I can look up the sky without fear of my eyes being harmed nor do I have to have set prayer times or am I required to recite certain things and that works just fine and we don’t have to pray like you do because we kneel to show our respect same concept.

Why did Jesus fall on his face to pray to God?

 

[Aydan]

Sister Amy-I’m afraid you are wrong on Mr. Spencer. He quotes extensively from the Quran, and the Haddith, and he cites Islamic scholars and Islamic History. He is well versed in the Quran, and comments extensively on it. In fact, he had an entire series “Blogging the Quran” that lasted for several years. When he quotes from scholars, it is to illustrate how mainstream Islamic scholars (or significant minority scholars) interpret Islam.

hey Steve do you have a link to that series I would like to see it?

 

[SteveLohr]

I am not unfamiliar with Robert Spencer. Although he does cite authentic Islamic sources, he frequently relies on poor/inaccurate translations, or quotes them only partially or out of context. He does not typically quote from mainstream Islamic scholars, but spends more time reporting from the fringe and trying to pretend it is mainstream.

The attacks that Spencer makes against Islam are frequently based on weak information, and more often ignore the classical interpretations.

In other words, he deliberately distorts the truth to mislead the people about Islam.

So he is not an authority on Islam. His opinion is meaningless to Muslims. If you think one of his claims has validity, then bring the evidence, and I’m more than happy to discuss it. But his blogs, books, and websites do not count as evidence to me. If he’s telling the truth, then let’s look at the sources.

Edited to add: I’m not sure if it was Spencer or someone else, but Booklover and I had a go not long ago where she was trying to quote a source that doesn’t actually exist–something many of those who attack Islam try to do. It’s deceitful, in my opinion, to not list the real source, lest they be forced to admit its weakness.

One of the points that Mr. Spencer makes on almost a weekly basis is that he is willing to be proven wrong on his points. He has offered to debate any of his critics to show him how his reporting is incorrect, and makes his email address freely available to spark such debate. As far as I know, his critics rarely, if ever, take him up on this offer. In my 15+ years of studying Islam, I can’t say I’ve ever found his reports or interpretations to be clearly in error. What claims of his particularly bother you?

 

[planten]

okay fine but even when they were given in Latin we all understood them because people were actually taught Latin I don’t need to fall on my face to pray to God because I can look up the sky without fear of my eyes being harmed nor do I have to have set prayer times or am I required to recite certain things and that works just fine and we don’t have to pray like you do because we kneel to show our respect same concept.

Aydan, you are wiser than Jesus who fell on the ground in the garden before his arrest and prayed to THE GOD to save himself. Why did he fall on the ground?. But you are now wiser than your Lord Jesus. In a way you are ridiculing Jesus.

 

[Aydan]

Why did Jesus fall on his face to pray to God?

for the same reason that he died on the cross because he loved us and interceded with our father on our behalf that’s why. And he didn’t just come for the Jews either as for what he does in Islam I really don’t know because I don’t pay attention to that since Muslims don’t believe he died on the cross.

 

[Aydan]

Aydan, you are wiser than Jesus who fell on the ground in the garden before his arrest and prayed to THE GOD to save himself. Why did he fall on the ground?. But you are now wiser than your Lord Jesus. In a way you are ridiculing Jesus. /QUO
of course not he didn’t plead to the God at all he pleaded to his father. It’s pretty funny that a Muslim would be quoting from that part of the Bible when they don’t even believe he was crucified now that is being disrespectful to Jesus. Not to mention offensive to me as a Christian

 

[dzheremi]

You have been listening too much to unlearned sources. Latin and English too are closely related, but in Latin the word for pen is ‘penis’, which has a whole diffent meaning in English. I could place the lexicons of English, Spanish and Latin side by side and see many similar words that had ***totally ***different meanings. I’ll give you another. In Spanish a ‘plumma’ is a pen, but in English a ‘plume’ is a set of feathers or a puff of smoke. Yet, they are spelled nearly the same. In Hebrew ‘Allah’ has never refered to God and forcing your theology out of Hebrew is, yes, sophmoric.

‘pluma’ only has one m in Spanish.

The fourth edition of the American Heritage Dictionary has a big list of (proto-)Semitic roots, and posits *'il as the proto-Semitic form from which the “extended Central Semitic” form 'ilah yields (eventually) the Arabic Allah (*al *(definite article) + (i)lah) and the Hebrew Elohim (Eloah (sg) + *-im *(pl. suffix)). Both Arabic and Hebrew are Central Semitic, so they developed more similar forms than, say, the Amharic Egziabher (which is virtually identical to the Ge’ez form from which it descended), as Amharic is South Semitic, with a large Cushitic substrate.

Also, Arabic is closer to Syriac that Hebrew

I’m not sure of the truth of this statement, given the above and charts like this one and trees like this one (taken from the aforementioned AHD, 4th ed.). I don’t particularly care for the AHD’s tree, but I couldn’t find anything better on the internet without having to pay some website to browse the archives of Semitic journals. I can scour my bookshelf sometime, if you guys are planning on continuing this argument. I’m sure there’s something there that will shed light on this.

 

[planten]

I am not unfamiliar with Robert Spencer. Although he does cite authentic Islamic sources, he frequently relies on poor/inaccurate translations, or quotes them only partially or out of context. He does not typically quote from mainstream Islamic scholars, but spends more time reporting from the fringe and trying to pretend it is mainstream.

The attacks that Spencer makes against Islam are frequently based on weak information, and more often ignore the classical interpretations.

In other words, he deliberately distorts the truth to mislead the people about Islam.

So he is not an authority on Islam. His opinion is meaningless to Muslims. If you think one of his claims has validity, then bring the evidence, and I’m more than happy to discuss it. But his blogs, books, and websites do not count as evidence to me. If he’s telling the truth, then let’s look at the sources.

Edited to add: I’m not sure if it was Spencer or someone else, but Booklover and I had a go not long ago where she was trying to quote a source that doesn’t actually exist–something many of those who attack Islam try to do. It’s deceitful, in my opinion, to not list the real source, lest they be forced to admit its weakness.

**Sis Amy, your above post #388 is a perfect reply to stevelohr. Beautiful. I cannot praise it more. It is a very balanced true reply and perfect rebuttal to the supporters of Spencer. I wish Spencer was here. We could turn him inside out and thrash his false arguments to pieces in few minutes.

Spencer may be a christian. I believe that christianity has no legs to stand upon. Now both the legs of christianity are broken. They have no faith (only beliefs, believe this and believe that and a big bundle of beliefs.) No faith. No real spiritual pious life at all. All sunk deep in sinful drinking gambling sexful lustful life. Are they doing any Jihaad against those bad things in their own society?
How they can come near the very pure life of our excellent human leaders of the past !! We have the complete religion direct from God (Allah) revealed on the heart of Muhammad and proved, practiced well through ages.

It was such people as the christians who played havoc by treachery with our religion and tried to bring it down by various means in various places. They could not face the truth. So they used treachery. That is what they are doing even now.**

 

[Aydan]

Why did Jesus fall on his face to pray to God?

if Jesus wanted us to pray like Muslims he would’ve taught us but instead he taught his disciples how to pray by teaching them the Lord’s prayer. More importantly Jesus taught his disciples to remember him by eating his flesh and drinking his blood through the Eucharist. That was far more important to Jesus than having people on their face when praying.

 

[planten]

**Lothair post #377,

You had partly discussed the building of a temple in Arabia. Also mentioned hagar and Ishmael. Please know that There was no conflict between the two wives of Abraham. It is a made up story by the Christians. Abraham was very wise man of God.

There was no problem of inheritance. The spiritual inheritance was given to both Issac and Ishmael. God blessed both of them. It is written in the bibleOT. There was no problem of land inheritance too.

Some one has foolishly made up a story that Sarai was angry and said “Ishmael will not inherit with Issac.” That is very bad. Was she Greedy? Was she the authority or Abraham was the authority to distribute the blessings of Allah?? Surely Not. God had told Abraham that He would bless and multiply the children of Hagar too.

Now come down to the slave girl. Hagar was not a slave at all. But we see many slave men and girls in Egypt working hard under the Pharoahs. They were the real slaves. Hagar was only an honest worker in the house of Abraham. Allah elevated her to the status of a wife of Abraham. She did better work which Sarai could not do. In fact Sarai had technically surrendered before Hagar. Sarai was hopeless and defeated and she surrendered before Hagar. Sarai wished that Hagar should help her husband Abraham with a child.

Now about Abraham, he was very wise. He settled both his sons far apart from each other. He settled Issac in Kana’an that was a good fertile place. He settled Ishmael in the wilderness of Paran where there was nothing except mountains. The result was very good indeed.

Abraham had a very bad earlier experience of the Kings. So he settled Ishmael in the wilderness where nobody (No King) would be interested. The result was the success of Muhammad in Arabia from the 50th generation of Abraham. But think of the sufferings of the children of sarai for many hundred years in Egypt and the final showdown of the Messiah on the cross in Palestine (Kana’an), the promised land of the Jews. Jesus (The promised Messiah) was arrested by the use of the Roman government force.**

 

[R_not]

**Sis Amy, your above post #388 is a perfect reply to stevelohr. Beautiful. I cannot praise it more. It is a very balanced true reply and perfect rebuttal to the supporters of Spencer. I wish Spencer was here. We could turn him inside out and thrash his false arguments to pieces in few minutes.

Spencer may be a christian. I believe that christianity has no legs to stand upon. Now both the legs of christianity are broken. They have no faith (only beliefs, believe this and believe that and a big bundle of beliefs.) No faith. No real spiritual pious life at all. All sunk deep in sinful drinking gambling sexful lustful life. Are they doing any Jihaad against those bad things in their own society?
How they can come near the very pure life of our excellent human leaders of the past !! We have the complete religion direct from God (Allah) revealed on the heart of Muhammad and proved, practiced well through ages.

It was such people as the christians who played havoc by treachery with our religion and tried to bring it down by various means in various places. They could not face the truth. So they used treachery. That is what they are doing even now.**

Ironic since it has been Christian majority countries who accepted muslims into their countries. And what do they do? They turn around and deceive us about what islam is. While in muslim countries sharia laws , sharia laws post 2,have proven to be intolerant, racist, cruel, deadly to non-muslims.

Your continual spouting that we have immoral behavior while islam sanctions it - they just make it holy and put islamic names on them, eg: ‘Weekend marriages’, ‘child brides’, ‘slavery’, ‘killing - or jihad’, etc.

This continual deception is very transparent. In fact, reading the posts from the muslims show us how so very little they know of their own history. So much twisting of the facts has only been the worse for you.

As for your ‘perfect’ stuff - keep dreaming.

I like it when muslims say they don’t like someone - it is usually a sign that they are ‘right on’! And Mr. Spencer is indeed just that - right on. Not only has Mr. Spencer offered to any muslim to debate, but so has Ali Sina. Mr. Sina has offered money too. No muslim has taken the offer, or can debate them. And that tells us a lot.

And Mr. Spencer mostly just reports on world news of what muslims are up to. He is a good source for what would be very scattered to find out. And we know you guys don’t like that - you would prefer us to be ill-informed. It would make you guys sound better, I am sure!

 

[dzheremi]

But throughout history, the Arabs were sent 4 prophets. Hud, Salih, Shu’ayb, and Muhammad who was sent as a prophet to all of mankind.

I’ve heard of Muhammad, but who were Hud, Salih, and Shu’ayb? Where can we read accounts of them?