Question on Islam -- round 4

[Jay53]

**
Kaafir is an utter open enemy of Islam.

** But not a kafir. Kafir is the one who fights against Islam.****
Kafir is an enemy outside the pale of Islam.

So Muslism need to understand things in their proper perspective. If some one has not been given the message of Islam, how can he take Shahadah? How can he recite the Kalimah? How can he be a Kaafir? He is at the most an ignorant or uninformed poor soul.

What is considered fighting against Islam? Is this just armed combat - and how is it determined that it is against Islam the religion as opposed to just a person who is bad who just happens to be Muslim?

Or is speaking out against Islam and pointing out the wrong-doings of Muhammad - is that “fighting against Islam”? What are the criteria for determining who is an enemy of Islam?

 

[planten]

You are welcome planten. And I never mind.

You know,although I do not like Muhammed and think him as the biggest false prophet,and Islam is also false religion,but You will agree that I never openly abused your prophet By saying harsh words. So Now you may decide again that I am a Kafir or not… Anyway I believe that,all Christians think Muhammed as false prophet because if he(Muhammed) is true prophet then Jesus Is not God.And if Jesus is God then Muhammed is not a true prophet. And who reject Jesus as God he/she is not a Christian correct? So indeed all Christian think Muhammed a false prophet.So now you can think again about the word Kafir.

Morning_Star, as far as I know, you are not a kafir. Most of the friends here are not Kaafir. You keep on believing that Muhammad is not a prophet and Islam is a false religion. That is alright, no harm. You are not a kafir.

Sorry Planten,I do not worship a man,but I worship God,holy trinity.father son and holy spirit.And this trinity concept was well explained to you and other Muslims by our Christian friends.So if you do not understand trinity then it is not my mistake.You do not understand trinity so you think that Trinitarians are pagan.But Actually Trinitarians are not pagan but they(we) worship the true God.And I worship Jesus because he is God,and I believe him as my god from my heart,as I explained in my previous post.Anyway I know our view point is not same.But Muslim never can prove that we are pagan.We believe in one God.that’s it.Bless you.

**That is okay. You can have Jesus as your God. That is upto you. I won’t harm you or abuse you. I would only suggest to you gently as Muslim Woman is always doing, that you are not right and you should be careful. But then the rest is upto you.

Our prophet had not come to fight against any one. He had brought a universal message of Peace. Had the pagans remained peaceful, Muhammad would never have fought against them too. So what ever your belief, a pagan or not, is none of my business. You (and all others) are free to have any belief they like. Absolutely any belief. They are free to have. But they will be responsible for any wrong beliefs on the day of reckoning.

It is none of my business to fight them or harm them. It would be a sin to fight or harm any one just for the sake of their beliefs.

There is not to be any holy war (Jihaad) to kill or convert any one.**

 

[dzheremi]

**
It is true that most muslims do not understand the word kafir. Even the scholars of the past misunderstood it and translated it loosely as “Disbeliever”. That was being a simplton. Kaafir is an utter open enemy of Islam.

But most Muslims believe that every one who has not recited the kalimah is a Kaafir. Some of them also believe that all kaafir are to be killed. So the initial mistake becomes much greater in magnitude. That is ignorance. Kafir is liable to be killed. But he has to be an armed enemy before he can be called a kafir. Any one who does not believe in Muhammad is not kaafir. He may be a non-believer, a christian or a Jew. But not a kafir. Kafir is the one who fights against Islam.

Kafir is an enemy outside the pale of Islam.

So Muslism need to understand things in their proper perspective. If some one has not been given the message of Islam, how can he take Shahadah? How can he recite the Kalimah? How can he be a Kaafir? He is at the most an ignorant or uninformed poor soul.**

Okay. Good luck with that.

What about me, by the way? I have heard the message of Muhammad more than once and always found it to be very lacking and false, and obviously not from God. Does this belief make me a kaafir, even though I do not physically combat Muslims because (thanks be to God) they have not physically threatened me as they do to Christians in so many other places?

 

[planten]

Anyone who recites a creed with “prophet’s” name attached to it is also considered a pagan. Of course, Muslims will always deny this charge - its like the Pot calling the Kettle black, but hey, we are not the ones who are told to face a black rock everyday to pray you know.

**cathopologist, yes. If the Muslims saythat Muhammad is a god then they are pagans. But if they say that there is only One God and Muhammad is a messenger and servant of allah, they are not pagans. Since you people have made a serious mistake by taking Jesus as God, now you are busy to accuse the Muslims of the same mistake. But we never say Muhammad is God.he is a man and a messenger (prophet) of God. There had been many prophets of God before Muhammad. As they were not Gods, so MUhammad is also not God. The nme of Muhammad will be attached with the proper personal name of God (Allah) for ever because Muhammad brought the unitarian faith in the world after it was lost completely from the earth. Muhammad is the champion of the unitarian faith.

The christians were also told to preach in the name of God and Jesus and the holy spirit. But they mistook that permission and made god out of Jesus and holy spirit**.

 

[morning_star777]

Morning_Star, as far as I know, you are not a kafir. Most of the friends here are not Kaafir. You keep on believing that Muhammad is not a prophet and Islam is a false religion. That is alright, no harm. You are not a kafir.

Muslims consider us nasty and profane by saying kafir…I know that kafir is the most nasty remark to non Muslims in Islamic society.Many thanks planten that,atleast you do not consider us nasty and profane.like your Muslim brothers consider us.from the beginning I realized that you are a peaceful man and different than other Muslims.It is good.God bless you.

 

[R_not]

Oh boy! This kaafir business again! First they say you need to be against Islam (which I suppose you are by definition if you are a Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc. insofar as you reject the religion of Muhammad), then they say no, no, you need to physically fight against Islam because this was the context in which the verses about slaying unbelievers came about (this is the interpretation of some Muslims who want to say that Islam is not violent towards unbelievers simply because they are unbelievers). Well, since you can be against Islam without going around killing Muslims, it doesn’t seem like those who are considered kaafirs by the first group ought to be considered kaafirs by the second. What gives? Who is right?

This is not an unimportant question, either. In Christianity, by rejecting Christ and putting your faith in something else (Islam, new age, Mormonism, etc), you risk your eternal soul. In Islam, it seems, by rejecting the message and prophethood of Muhammad, you risk having your temporal life taken from you by people who claim the right to enact God’s righteous vengeance upon you. It’s kind of a big difference, don’t you think?

Yes.

 

[cathopologist]

**cathopologist, yes. If the Muslims saythat Muhammad is a god then they are pagans. But if they say that there is only One God and Muhammad is a messenger and servant of allah, they are not pagans. Since you people have made a serious mistake by taking Jesus as God, now you are busy to accuse the Muslims of the same mistake. But we never say Muhammad is God.he is a man and a messenger (prophet) of God. There had been many prophets of God before Muhammad. As they were not Gods, so MUhammad is also not God. The nme of Muhammad will be attached with the proper personal name of God (Allah) for ever because Muhammad brought the unitarian faith in the world after it was lost completely from the earth. Muhammad is the champion of the unitarian faith.

The christians were also told to preach in the name of God and Jesus and the holy spirit. But they mistook that permission and made god out of Jesus and holy spirit**.

Christians acknowledge Jesus Christ as their Saviour and one of the three persons in one Godhead. We say that boldly and we are unashamed of that fact. As Christians, we understand the Trinity as it is. A ‘Christian’ is not a Christian if they do not believe in the Trinity. We recite our creed with conviction and sincerity. Muslims on the other hand, always accuse Christians of placing Christ as God’s partner. That is false. God has no partners in Christian thought. To be a partner of God, you’d have to be human (without divine properties) and warrant people to pray for you so that you may have a special place in heaven (like how Mohammad asked his followers) and have your name in a creed you created so generations after generations would associate your name with God. Don’t just recite your Shahadah blindly. Read it and understand that Mohammad is indeed placing himself as God’s partner.

 

[R_not]

**
It is true that most muslims do not understand the word kafir. Even the scholars of the past misunderstood it and translated it loosely as “Disbeliever”. That was being a simplton. Kaafir is an utter open enemy of Islam.

But most Muslims believe that every one who has not recited the kalimah is a Kaafir. Some of them also believe that all kaafir are to be killed. So the initial mistake becomes much greater in magnitude. That is ignorance. Kafir is liable to be killed. But he has to be an armed enemy before he can be called a kafir. Any one who does not believe in Muhammad is not kaafir. He may be a non-believer, a christian or a Jew. But not a kafir. Kafir is the one who fights against Islam.

Kafir is an enemy outside the pale of Islam.

So Muslism need to understand things in their proper perspective. If some one has not been given the message of Islam, how can he take Shahadah? How can he recite the Kalimah? How can he be a Kaafir? He is at the most an ignorant or uninformed poor soul.**

You are the one who called me a kafir - so why did you do it? You did it twice.

Personally, I think your note is just another one that is catching you up and making me, and possibly others, find that you are disingenuous.

It is like your notes on Jesus - if you don’t like what your texts say about mohammed you start bashing Jesus, if you like what your texts say about mohammed - you are ok with Jesus.

Ignorance has nothing to do with it. In fact, I find you guys (muslims) portraying more ignorance of your own prophet, texts, etc than anyone else on these threads. What one has to be is ignorant in order to be a muslim and ok with continuing down that path.

 

[morning_star777]

Yes, it does feel good and it changes one. I wasn’t such a good Christian until I started looking into ‘Why do they hate us?’, ‘why were their excuses not sounding real?’, etc after 9/11. In order to delve into that I found that I was turning more and more to the Church and even more so to Jesus for comfort.

Being dragged continually to have to reference the koran and other islamic texts is a ‘downer’. That is an expression that we had as teenagers.

I think of you often, morningstar, keep safe.

they hate us because their scriptures ordered so.We discussed about it at past but you know that many Muslims disagree with their scriptures and sometimes they explain their books in their own way.Just they play their broken records repeatedly,so if we will start again the discussion about violence in islamic scriptures with evidences then it will be endless argument,because instantly Muslims will deny their own scriptures by explaining them(scriptures) in different ways…it is really surprising that many Muslims altered their scriptures or their commandants by explaining them(scriptures) in different ways…And again thanks dear R_not for think of my safety.God bless and protect you always.

 

[R_not]

**cathopologist, yes. If the Muslims saythat Muhammad is a god then they are pagans. But if they say that there is only One God and Muhammad is a messenger and servant of allah, they are not pagans. Since you people have made a serious mistake by taking Jesus as God, now you are busy to accuse the Muslims of the same mistake. But we never say Muhammad is God.he is a man and a messenger (prophet) of God. There had been many prophets of God before Muhammad. As they were not Gods, so MUhammad is also not God. The nme of Muhammad will be attached with the proper personal name of God (Allah) for ever because Muhammad brought the unitarian faith in the world after it was lost completely from the earth. Muhammad is the champion of the unitarian faith.

The christians were also told to preach in the name of God and Jesus and the holy spirit. But they mistook that permission and made god out of Jesus and holy spirit**.

Here is the deal - it really doesn’t matter what one lone muslim says because not one of you are willing to stand up and try to change the others. You could, if there is truly more that believe this than you care to admit, stand up as a group and try to change the others. But, I think you are saying this for our benefit to make it sound like you are what you are not.

Your posts eventually show your true character and to me this one is just another one that is not being totally true.

This is why I started looking into islam in the first place. Why isn’t something sounding true from muslims who proclaim to be ‘peaceful’ when there are so many of them that do NOTHING to stop their others? Well, I found out - because they do indeed support the violent ones via muslim charities, deceiving us as to by telling us what we want to hear, and by moral support of the jihadists. Because they think that the jihadists are going straight to their orgy in heaven and they are indeed waging jihad too by deception.

 

[planten]

Oh boy! This kaafir business again! First they say you need to be against Islam (which I suppose you are by definition if you are a Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc. insofar as you reject the religion of Muhammad), then they say no, no, you need to physically fight against Islam because this was the context in which the verses about slaying unbelievers came about (this is the interpretation of some Muslims who want to say that Islam is not violent towards unbelievers simply because they are unbelievers). Well, since you can be against Islam without going around killing Muslims, it doesn’t seem like those who are considered kaafirs by the first group ought to be considered kaafirs by the second. What gives? Who is right?

** dzhereme, please understand that first contact of our prophet was with his own pagan people. He did not call them Kaafir. They were called polytheists (Mushrik). I assure you that the prophet never called you kaafir. He called the jews and the christians as people of the book.

Now come forward a few years. The pagans started beating, killing, persecuting the believers. That was a turning point for them. The prophet had nothing against them even if they did not believe in his message as long as they were peaceful. But they blocked the message with all force. That is the Kufr.

Had the pagans remained calm, the prophet would not have called them Kaafir. he wanted to live peacefully amongst them. But they did not allow that.

If you reject the religion of Muhammad, there is no harm to me or Muhammad. You are free to do so. But you are not free to take up arms to annihilate Islam. I hope you understand now. Debates, even small abuse does not make you kafir. You may remain a disbeliever all your life. You are not a kafir. The message has reached you peacefully.You have not accepted the message. You have rather rejected the message. You are not kafir as long as you do not fight against Islam with your money and time and power.

You can use your money to preach your faith freely. That will also not make you any kaafir.**

This is not an unimportant question, either. In Christianity, by rejecting Christ and putting your faith in something else (Islam, new age, Mormonism, etc), you risk your eternal soul. In Islam, it seems, by rejecting the message and prophethood of Muhammad, you risk having your temporal life taken from you by people who claim the right to enact God’s righteous vengeance upon you. It’s kind of a big difference, don’t you think?

**It is indeed an important question which the Muslims and the non-Muslims need to understand. Most of the muslims in many Muslim countries are misbehaving with the use of the word kafir and the improper consequences of the resulting chaos that is created…

I do not know what my other Muslim friends will feel about my posts regarding the word “kafir”. But I sincerely believe that Kafir is an open enemy of Islam. He is not an enemy of Muslims. He is enemy of Islam. So if any one is fighting the Muslims, he may not be kafir.

Any one may reject the message of Muhammad, there is no harm to Muhammad. The rejector will bear the consequences in the next life. There will be no punishment for him here. But he may suffer due to some bad luck etc. due to his fate or failures, illness etc. Such a person who does not believe in MUhammad is not to be abused or disliked or punished. It would be a sin to cause any harm to any disbeliever.**

 

[jakasaki]

**dzhereme, please understand that first contact of our prophet was with his own pagan people. He did not call them Jaafir. They were called polytheists (Mushrik). I assure you that the prophet never called you kaafir. He called the jews and the christians as people of the book.

Now come forward a few years. The pagans started beating, killing, persecuting the believers. That was a turning point for them. The prophet had nothing against them even if they did not believe in his message as long as they were peaceful. But they blocked the message with all force. That is the Kufr.

had teh pagans remained calm, the prophet would not have called them Kaafir. he wanted to live peacefully amongst them. But they did not allow that.

If you reject the religion of Muhammad, there is no harm to me or Muhammad. You are free to do so. But youare not free to take up arms to annihilate Islam. I hope you understand now. Debates, even small abuse does not make you kafir. You may remain a disbeliever all your life. You are not a kafir. The message has reached you peacefully.You have not accepted the message. Youhave rather rejected the message. You are not kafir as long as you do not fight against Islam with your money and time and power.

You can use your money to preach your faith freely. That will also not make you any kaafir.**

**It is indeed an important question which the Muslims and the non-Muslims need to understand. Most of the muslims in many Muslim countries are misbehaving with the use of the word kafir and the improper consequences of the resulting chaos that is created…

I do not know what my other Muslim friends will feel about my posts regarding the word “kafir”. But I sincerely believe that Kafir is an open enemy of Islam. H eis not an enemy of Muslims. He is enemy of Islam. So if any one is fighting the Muslims, he is not kafir.

Any one may reject the message of Muhammad, there is no harm to Muhammad. The rejector will bear the consequences in thenext life. There will be no punishment for him here. But he may suffer due to some bad luck etc. due to his fate or failures, illness etc. Such a person who does notbelieve in MUhammad is not to be abused or disliked or punished. It would be a sin to cause any harm to any disbeliever.**

Kafir:

In the Islamic doctrinal sense, the term refers to a person who does not recognize God (Allah) or the prophethood of Muhammad (i.e., any non-Muslim) or who hides, denies, or covers the “truth”.

**In cultural terms, it is seen as a derogatory term used to describe an unbeliever, non-Muslims, apostate from Islam and even between Muslims of different sects.

The spirit of Quran uses the word equally for Muslims, in Sura 2 Verse 256, it is asking Muslims to take upon themselves the action of “kufr” of all unjust idols, persons or powers.

It is usually translated into English as “unbeliever” “ungrateful” or “obliterator.”**

 

[planten]

Thanks for help with kufr. Kufr has the light meaning of hiding the truth. But its serious real meaning is an open enemy of the prophets i.e. enemy of Abraham, issac, Moses and Jesus and Muhammad. A belligerant, nasty disbieleiver.

 

[R_not]

…and the muslims have been carrying on violent jihad for centuries all because of a group of people way back then and that we know from islam’s own texts didn’t happen as the muslims say it happened. With mohammed being the pain in the behind rather than the others.

I won’t go into it anymore - but this persistent diatribe that mohammed was persecuted is getting old. So, they have been killing ever since and the ‘peaceful’ ones have been supporting them.

site on the history of jihad.

islam is about offensive wars and spreading mischief in the land.
youtube.com/watch?v=-gF46oYxPXg&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=FZNIwiBRnSE&feature=related

(she also goes into the family structure in islam which isn’t very good - she does this also in her book, ‘Now they Call Me Infidel’ which I have read also)

The Qur’an commands Muslims to fight non-Muslims until they exterminate all other religions and Islam would be the only religion in the world - the ultimate goal of Islamicism.
“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against As-Zatimun (the polytheists and wrong doers).” (Surat Al-Baqarah 2:193)

The Qur’an commands Muslims to terrorize and torture and kill anyone who disobeys allah and the prophet Mohammed:
"(Remember) when your Lord revealed to the angels, “Verily I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks and smite over all their fingers and toes. This is because they defied and disobeyed Allah and His Messenger (Mohammed). And whoever defies and disobeys Allah and His Messenger, them verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. This is (the torment), so taste it; and surely, for the disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.” (Surat Al-Anfal 8:12-14)
“The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger (Mohammed) and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.” (Surat Al-Maidah 5:33)

 

[jakasaki]

Thanks for help with kufr. Kufr has the light meaning of hiding the truth. But its serious real meaning is an open enemy of the prophets i.e. enemy of Abraham, issac, Moses and Jesus and Muhammad. A belligerant, nasty disbieleiver.

KAFIR
KUFFAR
A person who commits kufr. Lit. “the coverer”, one who hides or covers the truth. denier of the truth, ingrate, rebel against God, infidel, **Generally used by Muslims to refer to those who do not believe in the ministry of Muhammad and the Qur’an. **

It was also used of Christians who believe in the divinity of Jesus:
They surely disbelieve (la-gad kafar 'llazina) who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers (al-Ma’idah 5:72).

According to Hughes,
The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! (al-Ma’idah 5:75).

“the Kamalan say it refers to the Nestorians and to the Malaka’iyah who believe that God is one of three, the other two being the mother and son” (Hughes’ Dictionary of Islam, p. 260). [It is factually impossible for the Nestorians to accord Mary divinity since they even deny Mary of the title of “God-bearer” (Gk: theotokos)].

According to the Raddu ‘l-Muhtar (vol. iii, p. 442), there are five classes of kafirs or infidels:
Those who do not believe in the Great First Cause,
Those who do not believe in the Unity of God, as the Sanawiyah who believe in the two eternal principles of light and darkness,
Those who believe in the unity of God, but do not believe in a revelation,
Those who are idolaters,
Those who believe in God and in a revelation, **but do not believe in the general mission of Muhammad to the whole of mankind, **as the Christians, a sect of the Jews (sic). (Hughes’ Dictionary of Islam, p. 260)

Sayid Sharif Jurjani says: "Mankind are divided into two parties, namely those who acknowledge the mission of Muhammad, or those who do not believe in it.

Those who do not believe in his mission are either those who reject it and yet believe in the inspiration and divine mission of other prophets, as the Jews and the Christians, and also the Majusi (Fire Worshippers); or those who do believe in any revelation of God’s will.

Those who do not believe in any revelation from God are either those who acknowledge the existence of God, as the Brahma (Buddhists?), or those who deny the existence of a Supreme Ruler, as the Dahri or atheists.

Those who do not acknowledge Muhammad as an inspired prophet are either those who do it wilfully and from mere enmity, or those who do not acknowledge it from reflection and due study of the subject. For the former is eternal punishment, and for the latter that punishment is not eternal.

**Accusing a Muslim of kufr is like killing him **
Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak:
(who was one of the companions who gave the pledge of allegiance to the Prophet underneath the tree (Al-Hudaibiya)) Allah’s Apostle said, “Whoever swears by a religion other than Islam (i.e. if somebody swears by saying that he is a non-Muslim e.g., a Jew or a Christian, etc.) in case he is telling a lie, he is really so if his oath is false, and a person is not bound to fulfill a vow about a thing which he does not possess. And if somebody commits suicide with anything in this world, he will be tortured with that very thing on the Day of Resurrection; And if somebody curses a believer, then his sin will be as if he murdered him; And whoever accuses a believer of Kufr (disbelief), then it is as if he killed him.” (Sahih Bukhari 8.73. also Sahih Bukhari 8.126)

**killing a kafir after accepting Islam allowed **

Narrated Uthman ibn Affan:
AbuUmamah ibn Sahl said: We were with Uthman when he was besieged in the house. There was an entrance to the house. He who entered it heard the speech of those who were in the Bilat. Uthman then entered it. He came out to us, looking pale.

He said: They are threatening to kill me now. We said: Allah will be sufficient for you against them, Commander of the Faithful! He asked: Why kill me? I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: It is not lawful to kill a man who is a Muslim except for one of the three reasons: Kufr (disbelief) after accepting Islam, fornication after marriage, or wrongfully killing someone, for which he may be killed.

I swear by Allah, I have not committed fornication before or after the coming of Islam, nor did I ever want another religion for me instead of my religion since Allah gave guidance to me, nor have I killed anyone. So for what reason do you want to kill me? (Sunan Abu Da’ud 39.4487)

**killing a Muslim is kafur **
Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (i.e., an evil-doing), and killing him is Kufr (disbelief).” (Sahih Bukhari 8.70, Sahih Bukhari 9.197)
one becomes a kafir by accusing another of being a kafir when he/she is not.

Narrated Abu Dhar:
That he heard the Prophet saying, “If somebody accuses another of Fusuq (by calling him ‘Fasiq’ i.e. a wicked person) or accuses him of Kufr, such an accusation will revert to him (i.e. the accuser) if his companion (the accused) is innocent.” (Sahih Bukhari 8.71)

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, "If a man says to his brother, O Kafir (disbeliever)!’ Then surely one of them is such (i.e., a Kifir). " (Sahih Bukhari 8.71. also Sahih Bukhari 8.125d, Malik’s Muwatta 56.1.1)

 

[R_not]

**killing a Muslim is kafur
Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (i.e., an evil-doing), and killing him is Kufr (disbelief).” (Sahih Bukhari 8.70, Sahih Bukhari 9.197)
one becomes a kafir by accusing another of being a kafir when he/she is not. **

One should add that no matter what the muslim has done to another, if the other person retaliates/defends/etc then that person is still a kafir. Hence, this is why all the claims of victimhood after kafir start defending themselves in Bosnia/Kosovo, Israel, etc. We haven’t even bothered to find out that it is the muslims twisting the definitions of words and that they are usually the perpetrators of the crimes/wars. And it is usually after long periods of the unbelievers taking the muslim’s abuses, as in Israel and Kosovo/Bosnia.

And then what do we hear - the twisting of what the real facts are - you know, what we read on these threads - fairy tales.

 

[jakasaki]

**killing a Muslim is kafur
Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (i.e., an evil-doing), and killing him is Kufr (disbelief).” (Sahih Bukhari 8.70, Sahih Bukhari 9.197)
one becomes a kafir by accusing another of being a kafir when he/she is not. **

One should add that no matter what the muslim has done to another, if the other person retaliates/defends/etc then that person is still a kafir. Hence, this is why all the claims of victimhood after kafir start defending themselves in Bosnia/Kosovo, Israel, etc. We haven’t even bothered to find out that it is the muslims twisting the definitions of words and that they are usually the perpetrators of the crimes/wars. And it is usually after long periods of the unbelievers taking the muslim’s abuses, as in Israel and Kosovo/Bosnia.

And then what do we hear - the twisting of what the real facts are - you know, what we read on these threads - fairy tales.

Yup -

I posted that because Plantens explaination of kafir is wayyyyy different with what islam considers us. So regardless, we are all kafir/kafur.

If planten wants the defintions changed to fit his explaination, well then planten better start debating islamic scholar forums and keep out of CAF…

Hey, I’m just saying…

Just a suggestion…

 

[Aydan]

You are welcome planten. And I will never mind if anything is not in my favor(about faith)

You know,although I do not like Muhammed and think him as the biggest false prophet,and Islam is also false religion,but You will agree that I never openly abused your prophet By saying harsh words. So Now you may decide again that I am a Kafir or not… Anyway I believe that,all Christians think Muhammed as false prophet because if he(Muhammed) is true prophet then Jesus Is not God.And if Jesus is God then Muhammed is not a true prophet. And who reject Jesus as God he/she is not a Christian correct? So indeed all Christian think Muhammed a false prophet.So now you can think again about the word Kafir.

Sorry Planten,I do not worship a man,but I worship God,holy trinity.father son and holy spirit.And this trinity concept was well explained to you and other Muslims by our Christian friends.So if you do not understand trinity then it is not my mistake.You do not understand trinity so you think that Trinitarians are pagan.But Actually Trinitarians are not pagan but they(we) worship the true God.And I worship Jesus because he is God,and I believe him as my god from my heart,as I explained in my previous post.Anyway I know our view point is not same.But Muslim never can prove that we are pagan.We believe in one God.that’s it.Bless you.

yeah I try not to be disrespectful toward Mohammed as well even though I don’t acknowledge him as a prophet. My friendships with my Turkish friends are too important for me. I don’t need to disrespect Mohammed just because I disagree with Islam theology and like I said all of the Turks I’ve met have welcomed me with open arms and they know I’m Christian so it’s never been a problem I don’t debate theology with them when I want to debate Islam theology I come in here for that.

 

[SteveLohr]

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There was a famous evangelist of America (Billy Graham). He was great. When he visited East Afrika, one Ahmadi Muslim preacher threw a challenge to billy Graham. That was a fair challenge of healing terminally ill patients selected at random by prayers to God/ Allah. Billy Graham backed out and did not accept the challenge.

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While you have made a weak man into God, You are abusing the great powerful beloved man of God i.e. Muhammad… The wine and women you have spread in the world is taking its toll from all nations including some muslims too. The sin of all those people is going into your basket because your name sake christians are the traders of wine houses and gambling dens
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Planten-I wouldn’t bring up Dr. Graham’s refusal to perform miracles, if I were you, as that argument shows the relative superiority of Jesus over Mohammad. You see, The Quran acknowledges that he preformed no miracles. See Generally Quran 17:92-95; 13:7
On the other hand, Jesus is clearly shown as doing the following miracles:

The Miracles of Jesus Christ

1. Stilling the Storm Matt
2. Feeding the 5000
3. Walking on the Water
4. Feeding the 4000
5. Temple Tax in the Fish’s Mouth
6. Withering the Fig Tree
7. Draught of Fish
8. Turning Water into Wine
9. Second Draught of Fish

Healing Miracles
General Healings

1. Cleansing of a Leper
2. Healing a Centurion’s Servant
3. Healing Peter’s Mother-in-law
4. Healing the Sick at evening
5. Healing a paralytic
6. Healing the Hemorrhaging woman
7. Healing Two Blind Men
8. Healing a Man’s Withered Hand
9. Healing the Gentile Woman’s Daughter
10. Healing the Epileptic Boy
11. Healing a Blind Men
12. Healing a Deaf Mute
13. Healing a Blind Man at Bethsaida
14. Healing the Infirm, Bent Woman
15. Healing the Man with Dropsy
16. Cleansing the Ten Lepers
17. Restoring a Servant’s Ear
18. Healing the Nobleman’s Son (of fever)
19. Healing an Infirm Man at Bethesda
20. Healing the Man born blind

Resurrections

1. Raising the Ruler’s Daughter
2. Raising of a Widow’s Son at Nain
3. Raising of Lazarus
   Casting out Demons
4. Demons entering a herd of swine
5. Curing a Demon-possessed Mute
6. Casting Out an Unclean Spirit
7. Curing a Demon-possessed, Blind and Mute man

(H/T bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html for the list)

If your argument that Dr. Graham is less of a prophet than the Ahmadi preacher is valid, then using the exact same logic one necessarily has to agree that Jesus is far superior in comparrison to Mohammad.

Regards,

 

[SteveLohr]

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While you have made a weak man into God, You are abusing the great powerful beloved man of God i.e. Muhammad… The wine and women you have spread in the world is taking its toll from all nations including some muslims too. The sin of all those people is going into your basket because your name sake christians are the traders of wine houses and gambling dens
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Planten-another point I would make is that Christians haven’t “turned a weak man into God.” The evidence is that He is in fact, God. For instance, consider the role of prophecy. Here are eight old testament prophecies concerning the Messiah:

-Micah foretells Jesus’ birthplace in Bethlehem.
-Malachi, Isaiah predicts John the Baptist.
-Zechariah in approx 520-480 CE predicts that Jesus would arrive on a donkey.
-King David may have predicted that Jesus would be betrayed.
-King David may have predicted the crucifixion.
-Zechariah may have predicted the price of Judas for betraying Jesus. Also the ultimate use of the money.
-Isaiah predicted Jesus’ remaining silent before his accusers.
-Isaiah predicted Jesus would be crucified with thieves.

The odds of just these eight prophecies being fulfilled in one man is roughly
1:100,000,000,000,000,000
(Source: Stoner, Peter, Science Speaks. Chicago: Moody Press, 1963, pg. 100-07. A copy is available at geocities.com/stonerdon/science_speaks.html )

However, There are more prophecies:

-The Messiah was to be born from a virgin. Isaiah 7:14.
-Messiah was to enter Jerusalem in triumph. Zechariah 9:9
-The Messiah was to die as a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5
-The Messiah would be from the seed of Abraham (Gen 22:18-Matt 1:1)
-The Messiah would come from the linage of Isaac (Gen 21:12-Luke 3:34)
-The Messiah would be from the linage of Jacob (Num 24:17-Luke 3:34)
-The Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah (Gen 49:10-Luke 3:33)
-The Messiah would not respond to his accusers (Isaiah 53:7-Matt 27:12-19)
-The Messiah would be wounded and bruised (Isaiah 53:5-Matt 27:26)
-The Messiah would be smitten and spit upon (Isaiah 50:6-Matt 26:67)
-The Messiah would be mocked (Psalms 22:2-8-Matt 27:31
-The Messiah’s hands and feet would be pierced (Psalms 22:16-Luke 23:33)
-The Messiah would make intercession for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12-Luke 23:34)
-The Messiah would be hated by His own people (Isaiah 53:3-John 7:5, 48)
-The Messiah would be hated without cause (Psalms 69:4-John 15:25)
-The Messiah’s friends would stand far off (Psalm 38:11-Luke 23:49)
-People shook their heads at Him (Psalms 109:25-Matt 27:39)
-They divided His garments and cast lots for them (Psalm 22:18-John 19:23, 24)
-He was to suffer thirst (Psalms 69:21)
-They offered him gall and vinegar to drink (Psalms 69:21-Matt 27:34)
-He cried aloud ‘My God, My God” (Psalms 22:1-Matt 27:46
-He committed his Spirit (Psalm 31:5-Luke 23:46)
-His bones were not broken (Psalms 34:20-John 19:33)
-His heart was broken (Psalms 22:14-John 19:34)
-His side was pierced (Zech 12:10-John 19:34)
-Darkness would come over the land (Amos 8:9-Matt 27:45)
-He would be buried in a rich man’s grave (Isaiah 53:9-Matt 27:57-60)
-The Messiah would be from the line of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1-Luke 3:23, 32)
-The Messiah would be from the House of David (Jerm 23:5-Luke 3:23, 31)
-The Messiah would be called Lord (Psalms 110:1-Luke 2:11)
-The Messiah would be a prophet (Deut 18:18-Matt 21:11)
-The Messiah would be a priest (Psalms 110:4-Heb 3:1)
-The Messiah would be a judge (Isaiah 33:22-John 5:30)
-The Messiah would be a King (Psalms 2:6-Matt 27:37)
-The Messiah would have the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2-Matt 3:16-17)
-The Messiah would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5, 6-Matt 9:35)
-The Messiah would teach in parables (Psalm 78:2-Matt 13:34)
-The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9-Matt 10:4)
-The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11:12-Matt 26:15)
-The money would be thrown in God’s house (Zech 11:13-Matt 27:5)
-The Messiah would be forsaken by His disciples (Zech 13:7-Mark 14:50)
-The Messiah would be accused by false witnesses (Psalm 35:11-Matt 26:59-61)

Odds of forty-three of the prophecies being fulfilled are 10 raised to the 156th power, i.e., :
1:100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

(Source: Stoner, Peter, Science Speaks. Chicago: Moody Press, 1963, pg. 100-07. A copy is available at geocities.com/stonerdon/science_speaks.html )

Just to compare, the total number of atoms in the known universe is approximately 10 raised to the 80th power. In short, the odds of these prophecies being fulfilled in one man is vastly greater than the number of atoms in this universe!

In my opinion, this is pretty good evidence that Jesus is who He says He is.

Regards,