Question on Islam -- round 4

[Hadi]

MW, maybe it’s now the time for you to stop posting these unnecessary posts…

 

[Jay53]

That God has more than one name, obviously.

It wasn’t obvious that that was what you were trying to say! I don’t know why you didn’t just say that in the first place. Can you confirm that “I AM” is one of the names in the Quran?

It would be a courtesy, I think, to let me say what I am saying, rather than ask me if I’m saying something because I am not saying something else.

That’s what I was trying to do!?! I honestly did not understand what you were trying to say.

What I said is that I cannot prove to you that Exodus is corrupted. I did not say that it actually isn’t corrupted. Perhaps the difference is subtle, but I am emphasizing it now. I think Exodus might have been corrupted, but I simply can’t prove it. Therefore I can’t really continue the discussion on the matter, can I?

So you believe that Exodus may have been corrupted, but don’t know for sure and can’t prove it. Then on what do you base your opinion?

About Moses being a liar, I did say that Moses is not a liar.

Understood. I never said you thought Moses was a liar. I only asked *if *that was your contention because I couldn’t figure out what you were trying to say.

About God changing His name, what I am saying is that God has more than one name. To Him belong the most beautiful Namessssss. Plural.

Okay. Again, can you confirm that the name God gave Moses, “I AM” is in the Quran? If I have time later I will try to look it up myself, but if you have the citation handy I thought that would be easier. Also, other than in the Quran, are there any other scriptures that give the other namessssssssss (plural) that God has given us. Thanks.

EDIT: I do not see “I AM” as one of the 99 names of Allah - I am making an assumption that those are the namessssssss (plural) that you were referring to. islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm sufism.org/society/asma/ Why is the original name God gave us not among these? Perhaps it is found elsewhere in the Quran?

 

[Lothair]

Can’t say, as I have far better things to do than read his websites and books.

Yes, like follow me around on this thread.

The hadith is one where some women had complained to the Prophet about their husbands beating them, and the Prophet replied that “they” are not the best among “you.” And Spencer’s book claimed that it was the women who were “not the best” because they were complaining. He actually spelled that out. When in fact, the hadith is saying the opposite, that the men were “not the best” because they were beating their wives.That’s the sort of problem I have with Robert Spencer. He takes an actual hadith, and either mistranslates it, or gives the wrong meaning from it, misinterpreting it. Either tactic is deceitful

Actually, the traditional interpretation of that hadith is that ‘they’ refers to the women who were complaining, though the placement of the pronoun ‘they’ and the predicate ‘are not the best among you’ can refer to either the husbands or the wives. All Spencer has done is give the hadith its historical and majority understanding. He provides the references, so that his audience can see where the traditions of wife beating come from. Your ‘beef’ isn’t with Spencer, its with your religious leaders. Instead of trying to convince us that Spencer is a rat, why don’t you pull the hair out of the rats in Islamic countries who have gotten the hadith so wrong for so long.

 

[SteveLohr]

You mean Jesus taught his disciples to engage in cannibalism?

You see, I don’t have a problem with the “Lord’s prayer.” It’s pretty Islamic actually. On the otherhand, Jesus did fall on his face to pray to God. If it’s not important, why did he do that?

People always say that actions speak louder than words. Did Jesus not teach by actions?

Several pages ago, I was asked to give my thoughts on Christians and prayer, specifically, what should be the form of our prayers. This is an interesting question, as it highlights one of the important differences between Islam and Christianity.
An examination of the Old Testament indicates there is no formal method of prayer for Christians and Jews:
Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. Exodus 34:8 NIV
I lay prostrate before the LORD those forty days and forty nights because the LORD had said he would destroy you. Deuteronomy 9:25 NIV
Then the Israelites, all the people, went up to Bethel, and there they sat weeping before the LORD. They fasted that day until evening and presented burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to the LORD. Judges 20:26 NIV
When Solomon had finished all these prayers and supplications to the LORD, he rose from before the altar of the LORD, where he had been kneeling with his hands spread out toward heaven. 1 Kings 8:54 NIV
Then David said to the whole assembly, “Praise the LORD your God.” So they all praised the LORD, the God of their fathers; they bowed low and fell prostrate before the LORD and the king. 1 Chronicles 29:20 NIV
Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before. Daniel 6:10 NIV
This conclusion is reinforced by Jesus in the New Testament
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” Matthew 26:39 NIV
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. John 17:1 NIV

In short, there is no formal method for prayer in either the Old or New Testament. However, there are instructions on what represents “good prayer practice.” Jesus stated:
**
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.”
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” Matthew 6:6
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” Luke 18:10**

From these passages, we see that what is important is not the formal method of prayer, but what is in the heart of the person making the prayer. This is a theme that runs through the teachings of Jesus: What God wants is sincere repentance, not adherence to formality:

**Psalm 51:16-17
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.

Proverbs 21:3
To do what is right and just
is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.**

Further, Christians are not limited to prayer at set times, but to “pray continually.”

Be joyful always;
pray continually;
give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 ( NIV )

In contrast, Islam tends to be legalistic and in my opinion places too much value in the formality of religion over the function. The detailed rules for personal behavior set out in various suras, haddith, sunna and fatwa’s attempt to cope with man’s sinful nature by restricting it via laws and rules. In my opinion, this concept is doomed to fail, given man’s inherent sinful nature. Laws don’t adequately bind men-they simply find legal ways around them, or alternatively avoid the laws altogether. Consequentially, Islam is unable to adequately address the problem of sin.
The issue of ritual in prayer is a useful lens to view some of this fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity. This site summarizes some of the rituals necessary to the daily Muslim prayers: sunna.info/prayer/TheBasicsoftheMuslimsPrayer.php
As you can see, there are numerous details that must be followed for a prayer, yet there does not seem to be much, if any emphasis on the heart of the person making the prayer. Although our Muslim brothers externally show the greatest respect towards Allah in the external form of their prayer, IMHO, their sin remains completely unaddressed. In contrast, addressing sin and the relationship to God is the entire point of the prayer of Christians.

 

[dolphinlove]

Steve,
Welcome to the forums, it seems you are quite talented with your answers.
Have you dont intense study of religion?

 

[Agabriel]

Ah, the Meccans were quite unsure what to do about Muhammad. They did ridicule him, it’s true. They labeled him a liar, a madman, a poet, a magician, a soothsayer, and even called him possessed. Eventually they realized how silly that all was, that they couldn’t even decide how to ridicule him! So I laugh back at you. The Qur’an hardly qualifies as “banter,” as it doesn’t include any words from Muhammad’s companions, and doesn’t include the words of Muhammad either. But you’ll say it is Muhammad’s words, to which I will point out that it differs vastly in style from all recorded sayings of Muhammad. If he were a man to create such eloquence as in the Qur’an, why abstain from it on a regular basis? If he could produce such language as to convince people utterly that he was reciting the Word of God, why not just call himself divine, rather than a slave of the divine?

The whole Quran is Muhammad’s words, but as far as him being a liar - well, he was.

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”
Qur’an 66:2 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

And he told others it is ok to lie.

Ishaq:365
Tabari VII:94 “Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.’ ‘Say what you like,’ Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.’”

In fact, part of what Muslims are required to do are good works. And part of doing good works is doing taqiyya. To a Muslim, doing taqiyya or deception, is a part of them thinking it is earning them salvation.

Al-taqiyya and dissimulation are words used for a practice of Muslims blatantly lying to non-Muslims. All but some of the most fundamental Muslims consider the act of Al-taqiyya or lying to non-Muslims to be a good work. This is very important when one remembers that, in Islam, salvation is determined by good works. This means that a Muslim lying to a non-Muslim is that Muslim doing a good work to earn salvation. It is almost equivalent to a Christian accepting Jesus as his savior. One of the big differences is that a Christian only needs to accept Jesus as his savior once to become saved forever but a Muslim must do his good works consistently and repeatedly to earn his salvation with the except of the greatest work of dying while fighting non-Muslims.

I have read nothing to indicate the opposite position in Islam. Maybe a Muslim can show us exactly where it says that they should tell us the truth about Islam.

As for Muhammad being possessed, that is probably due to him having ‘fits’. He had them when he was a child and was handed back to his mother by his wet nurse because of these ‘fits’ and he also fell down in front of the Kabaa in a ‘fit’ at least once. there were also other instances where he had fits.

When these ‘fits’ are not medicated as we have medicines now, they could also account for his visions and other problems that he had such as seeing jinns or thinking he was possessed by Satan.

“He fell to the ground like one intoxicated or overcome by sleep; and in the coldest day his forehead would be bedewed with large drops of perspiration. Inspiration descended unexpectedly, and without any previous warning.” **Bukhari 7, 71, 660) **

The eloquence in the Quran escapes me. I just don’t see why anyone would think that it is eloquent, unless one couldn’t read anything else.

 

[SteveLohr]

Steve,
Welcome to the forums, it seems you are quite talented with your answers.
Have you dont intense study of religion?

Thank you for your kind words. I’ve been studying various religions, primarily Christianity and Islam for several decades now. The vast bulk of my writings on this page aren’t my ideas-I’m just repeating what people who are far smarter than I say. I merely compare and evaluate their thoughts.

 

[Jay53]

I have another general question about Islam.

How much of the Passion of Christ do Muslims believe? I am aware that they do not believe He was crucified. I have heard that they believe He was actually nailed to cross, but then God rescued Him and He ascended into Heaven (thus God deceived His people into Christianity) or that He was still alive when He was taken down, miraculously healed by some special potion and then went to India to live to be 120 years old.

What I would like to know is what else of the Passion do Muslims believe? I think they believe in the Agony in the Garden (since they use this as an example for prostration in prayer). Do they believe in the scourging, crowning with thorns, the Way of the Cross, etc.?

Thank you.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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MW, maybe it’s now the time for you to stop posting these unnecessary posts…

which are the unnecessary posts ?

 

[Hadi]

I agree…just look at what page we are in now…

I thought R_not was on top of the spamming business but now MW is taking the lead

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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I have heard that they believe He was actually nailed to cross,

related link:

Is Jesus God Himself or His Messenger?

Maria - Malaysia

… who was really crucified in Prophet Isa’s (pbuh) place?

Answer by Prof. Shahul Hameed, Consultant to the Discover Islam Section, IslamOnline.net

Allah Almighty says in the Qur’an: “And concerning their saying, ‘We killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s Messenger.’ They killed him not, nor crucified, but it appeared so to them. Indeed those who disagree concerning it are in doubt about it. They have no (true) knowledge about it except that they follow conjecture. Surely, they did not kill him. But Allah did take him up unto Himself. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.” (An-Nisaa’: 157-158)

…Muslims need to believe only what has been clearly stated by Allah in the Qur’an and by the Prophet Muhammad, peace be on him. And so they do not feel the compulsion to wander in the realm of conjecture about things of which there cannot be certain knowledge. And Allah knows best.

then went to India to live to be 120 years old.

No ; It’s not mentioned in Quran or hadith.

they use this as an example for prostration in prayer

Anything that goes with the message of Quran is accepted to us . That goes against Quran is not the truth like death of Jesus (pbuh) on the Cross , his divinity etc.

links on Jesus (pbuh)

search.islamonline.net/en/simresults.html?q=Jesus

 

[Jay53]

**

Allah Almighty says in the Qur’an: “And concerning their saying, ‘We killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s Messenger.’ They killed him not, nor crucified, but it appeared so to them**. Indeed those who disagree concerning it are in doubt about it. They have no (true) knowledge about it except that they follow conjecture. Surely, they did not kill him. But Allah did take him up unto Himself. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.” (An-Nisaa’: 157-158)

…Muslims need to believe only what has been clearly stated by Allah in the Qur’an and by the Prophet Muhammad, peace be on him. And so they do not feel the compulsion to wander in the realm of conjecture about things of which there cannot be certain knowledge. And Allah knows best.

No ; It’s not mentioned in Quran or hadith.

So, what does this mean? Muslims don’t even believe Jesus was nailed to the cross? I’m not asking for conjecture. I’m asking what Muslims believe happened to Jesus during the Passion. Or do Muslims believe nothing happened to Jesus and one day He is preaching God’s message and the next He just disappeared for no reason?

And I understand your bolded part. Muslims seem to believe that God deliberately deceived Jesus’ followers so that Christianity would be started, people (Christians) would think Jesus was God and He could then send them all to hell for “associating partners” with Him.

 

[Agabriel]

I agree…just look at what page we are in now…

I thought R_not was on top of the spamming business but now MW is taking the lead

What do you consider spam? Anyone posting something that you don’t want to read?

As for muslim woman, most of the time she is in her own little world. She probably feels she is contributing, and she is in a way. She tells me that it is safe for her to be in her own little world. What would she have if she were not? Reality. And what reality does one have in Islam?

To me it is a big nothing. survival.

 

[morning_star777]

yeah I try not to be disrespectful toward Mohammed as well even though I don’t acknowledge him as a prophet. My friendships with my Turkish friends are too important for me. I don’t need to disrespect Mohammed just because I disagree with Islam theology and like I said all of the Turks I’ve met have welcomed me with open arms and they know I’m Christian so it’s never been a problem I don’t debate theology with them when I want to debate Islam theology I come in here for that.

That’s good.real friends are always warm.I know about the turkish Muslims.Most of .them are very different than other muslims.But most of Muslims consider turkish Muslims as heretic and non religious.Even many Muslims consider the turkish people as Kafir because still Turkish muslims are not violent or hateful like rest of Muslim world.I can say about My own countrymen(bangladeshi).My all friends are Muslim(except 2) and their behavior to Non Muslims are very good.But It is just a sugar coat.They also can hug non Muslims warmly,but when the non Muslims are not with them then they address them as Kafir,the enemy of islam,the agent of india,profane,unclean etc etc.It is true,I am the witness.Like my muslim family,My Muslims friends also think me as a Muslim(of course as atheist Muslim,but as a muslim),so they do not hesitate infront of me when they use abusive words to non Muslims.And in our country there is a common nagative word for hindus and that is “Malaun”.I do not know it’s exact meaning because it is not a Bangla word,it is just a common slang for hindus,and it is used instead of profane,so it’s meaning is profane or same thing…So if Muslims show warmness,then all are Just their fake behavior.But since your friends are turkish,so I hope that they are really Good.I am not telling that all non turkish Muslims are sugar coated quinine,but I just wanted to say that most of Muslims are like that(sugar coated quinine).Most of them never love their non Muslim friends from their heart.And Bangladesh is a real moderate Muslim country.So if most of muslims of bangladesh are like that,then I can easily imagine(how horrific they are!) about the muslims of extremist countries like pakistan,Iran,saudi arabia,and others.

 

[Aydan]

So, what does this mean? Muslims don’t even believe Jesus was nailed to the cross? I’m not asking for conjecture. I’m asking what Muslims believe happened to Jesus during the Passion. Or do Muslims believe nothing happened to Jesus and one day He is preaching God’s message and the next He just disappeared for no reason?

And I understand your bolded part. Muslims seem to believe that God deliberately deceived Jesus’ followers so that Christianity would be started, people (Christians) would think Jesus was God and He could then send them all to hell for “associating partners” with Him.

A Muslim friend told me that someone was crucified but it wasn’t Jesus and they don’t know who the person was I’ve heard other Muslims say that it was Jesus but at some point God took the real Jesus back into heaven and replaced him with someone who looked like Jesus so that people ended up thinking Jesus died on the cross when in fact he did not. People just thought they killed him and that’s how Muslims explain the disappearance of Jesus from this world.

 

[Jay53]

A Muslim friend told me that someone was crucified but it wasn’t Jesus and they don’t know who the person was I’ve heard other Muslims say that it was Jesus but at some point God took the real Jesus back into and heaven and replaced him with someone who looked like Jesus so that people ended up thinking Jesus died on the cross when in fact he did not. People just thought they killed him and that’s how Muslims explain the disappearance of Jesus from this world.

Thank you. Do you know what they believe regarding all of the time leading up to the crucifixion? Do they believe in the scouraging at the pillar, crowning with thorns, etc.?

 

[Aydan]

Thank you. Do you know what they believe regarding all of the time leading up to the crucifixion? Do they believe in the scouraging at the pillar, crowning with thorns, etc.?

I think they do but I can’t be sure because my friend and I never discussed it at length it was just part of a brief conversation.

 

[Aydan]

Although I am not sure how much (if any) stock I put into such things, I have read that the differences in prayer postures in the East and the West has to do with what was historically considered a humble, supplicative posture in the given regions. For what it’s worth, I have no problem with prostration and do engage in it myself privately (as a Latin Rite Catholic, this would be inappropriate at Mass).

I do take great offense at the suggestion that the Lord’s Prayer is Islamic, though. I understand that you mean that it is in harmony with Islamic principles, but in the context of our differing theologies, this cannot be the truth. For worship of the Father, from whom the Son is eternally begotten, it is a beautiful prayer shared by Christians all over the world, given to us by the Son Himself who you deny in every other arena. It is not right, then, that you should lay claim to something given to you by the One who you have rejected. You reject His sacrifice but claim His prayer? I do not know what to say to that. It is deeply offensive, even if you meant it as something positive (I’m assuming you did, given the smiley).

I am tired of Christ and the faith being treated as frivolities everywhere. It wears on the soul. God, give me strength from You to resist the ways of the world and its profanities.

The Lord’s Prayer (“Our Father”/Abun D’Bashmayo) in Syriac

I too take offense to her saying that the Lord’s prayer is Islamic for the very same reasons that you do. But I think her comments about the Eucharist and saying that the disciples engaged in cannibalism was just about as offensive as you can possibly get. In fact I thought it might be a violation of the rules of this forum because one of them is that everyone must be respectful of Catholicism and that clearly is not being respectful when you equate the Eucharist with cannibalism.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Although I am not sure how much (if any) stock I put into such things, I have read that the differences in prayer postures in the East and the West has to do with what was historically considered a humble, supplicative posture in the given regions. For what it’s worth, I have no problem with prostration and do engage in it myself privately (as a Latin Rite Catholic, this would be inappropriate at Mass).

Was Jesus in the East or the West?

I do take great offense at the suggestion that the Lord’s Prayer is Islamic, though. I understand that you mean that it is in harmony with Islamic principles, but in the context of our differing theologies, this cannot be the truth. For worship of the Father, from whom the Son is eternally begotten, it is a beautiful prayer shared by Christians all over the world, given to us by the Son Himself who you deny in every other arena. It is not right, then, that you should lay claim to something given to you by the One who you have rejected. You reject His sacrifice but claim His prayer? I do not know what to say to that. It is deeply offensive, even if you meant it as something positive (I’m assuming you did, given the smiley).

Of course it is the truth. The sole exception is actually calling God “Father,” which isn’t found in Islam, but even the style of the prayer is Islamic. Because the prayer is first of all directed to the Almighty, who is described as being in heaven, and then His name is honored. It talks about the will of God being done both on earth and heaven, demonstrating that the person praying is submitting himself to God’s will. It asks for sustenance, which comes only from God, so acknowledges the person’s dependence on Him. It also includes an element of repentance, seeking forgiveness. And it asks for guidance and steadfastness in religion, on His Law.

It’s a lot like the first chapter of the Qur’an, really. So what if you don’t like that the teachings of Islam are like those of Jesus.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hmm. In order to respond I’d need, as a minimum, the name of Mr. Spencer’s book, and the Haddith he was citing. Would you happen to recall both of those? Otherwise, I would have to say that your allegation is unproven. The fact is that Mr. Spencer is very careful with his translations and uses mainstream Islamic scholarship, unless otherwise cited. Additionally, he is willing to discuss his ideas with anyone, especially Muslims. Consequentially, without more information, I’d have to say that your claim is unproven.

Regards,

The book is called the politically incorrect guide to Islam, and the chapter was on women. Seems to be chapter 5 (I looked online.) If you can get a hold of the book, examine that chapter. If I recall correctly, the discussion of this hadith spanned two pages, i.e., the page had to be turned in order to read the whole thing. Maybe you can go look. The hadith is “Certainly they are not the best among you.” I don’t have the Arabic handy, though this is a frequent hadith cited by Muslims, which you can check to see how they interpret it. You can check here, for instance: khilaafah.com/systems/social_relations/khilafah_5.html

So let’s discuss this.