Question on Islam -- round 4

[Sister_Amy]

Rather, it’s like how a true flower surpasses in beauty that of any painting.

 

[Agabriel]

Of course it is the truth. The sole exception is actually calling God “Father,” which isn’t found in Islam, but even the style of the prayer is Islamic. Because the prayer is first of all directed to the Almighty, who is described as being in heaven, and then His name is honored. It talks about the will of God being done both on earth and heaven, demonstrating that the person praying is submitting himself to God’s will. It asks for sustenance, which comes only from God, so acknowledges the person’s dependence on Him. It also includes an element of repentance, seeking forgiveness. And it asks for guidance and steadfastness in religion, on His Law.

It’s a lot like the first chapter of the Qur’an, really. So what if you don’t like that the teachings of Islam are like those of Jesus.

In Islam, their Allah is not known as ‘Father’. In all the 99 names for Allah - ‘Father’ is not among them.

In Islam, there is no concept of ‘forgiveness’.
(’…as we forgive those who trespass against us…’)
Since there is no concept of an unbeliever being equal to them, they do not give the unbelievers the same rights and considerations - such as forgiveness. For us Christians, there is nothing in the ‘Our Father’ that tells us that it should be forgiveness only for Christians and no one else.

now, keeping in mind that we are all human beings (not a concept in Islam either) many fall short of the ‘Our Father’ all the time, but at least we try.

And all Muslims should say it - maybe they will start changing and start realizing some things that Jesus was trying to tell them.

 

[Sister_Amy]

These names do not appear in the Bible, so their credentials must be suspect. In fact, They should be ignored entirely. Thamud, for example, is most likely entirely mythical. While a few less well read may just jump for articficial evidence, the hard truth is that these ‘prophets’ and the places they traveled are about as authentic as Rumple Stilskin. The Quran 7:74; 15:82; 26:149; 89:9] seems to confuse the Thamud with the Nabeteans, and least we forget, this is where Allah’s she-camel jumped out of a rock and was mistreated by the inhabitants in order to get her share of the water. But, why did Allah’s she-camel, a divine Ungulate of Allah, need water at all? And what is Allah ***doing ***with a she-camel in the first place?!

Everything in the heavens and the earth belongs to Allah.

Many people claim Biblical characters are as mythical as you claim these to be. Just because they weren’t in the Bible doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. It only means they weren’t sent to Jews (which we already have established), because the Bible is a recording of Jewish history, not so much world history.

This is not primary evidecnce at all. You might as well believe in Atlantis after reading some 20th century publication that only relies on itself for evidence.

Of course it’s not primary evidence. It offers narrative versions of the stories of the prophets, rather than what you might find in the Qur’an which are not in narrative form.

Madyan may have been a spelling of Midian, but, Shayub isn’t known in any Jewish Scripture, tradition or myth.

As another poster has already said, he is called Jethro in Jewish scripture.

 

[Aydan]

Was Jesus in the East or the West?

Of course it is the truth. The sole exception is actually calling God “Father,” which isn’t found in Islam, but even the style of the prayer is Islamic. Because the prayer is first of all directed to the Almighty, who is described as being in heaven, and then His name is honored. It talks about the will of God being done both on earth and heaven, demonstrating that the person praying is submitting himself to God’s will. It asks for sustenance, which comes only from God, so acknowledges the person’s dependence on Him. It also includes an element of repentance, seeking forgiveness. And it asks for guidance and steadfastness in religion, on His Law.

It’s a lot like the first chapter of the Qur’an, really. So what if you don’t like that the teachings of Islam are like those of Jesus.

no the Koran says save us from those who have gone astray (meaning Christians) and those who have incurred your anger meaning the Jews and it acknowledges Mohammed as God’s messenger the Lord’s prayer is nothing like that.

 

[SteveLohr]

The book is called the politically incorrect guide to Islam, and the chapter was on women. Seems to be chapter 5 (I looked online.) If you can get a hold of the book, examine that chapter. If I recall correctly, the discussion of this hadith spanned two pages, i.e., the page had to be turned in order to read the whole thing. Maybe you can go look. The hadith is “Certainly they are not the best among you.” I don’t have the Arabic handy, though this is a frequent hadith cited by Muslims, which you can check to see how they interpret it. You can check here, for instance: khilaafah.com/systems/social_relations/khilafah_5.html

So let’s discuss this.

OK-It’ll take me a couple of days to get ahold of a copy. I’ll try to get a reponse in the next 72 hours

 

[Sister_Amy]

It wasn’t obvious that that was what you were trying to say! I don’t know why you didn’t just say that in the first place. Can you confirm that “I AM” is one of the names in the Quran?

Nope.

That’s what I was trying to do!?! I honestly did not understand what you were trying to say.

Maybe I wasn’t clear. I’ll try to do better in the future.

So you believe that Exodus may have been corrupted, but don’t know for sure and can’t prove it. Then on what do you base your opinion?

The Qur’an.

Understood. I never said you thought Moses was a liar. I only asked *if *that was your contention because I couldn’t figure out what you were trying to say.

Well no, I don’t think Moses was a liar.

Okay. Again, can you confirm that the name God gave Moses, “I AM” is in the Quran? If I have time later I will try to look it up myself, but if you have the citation handy I thought that would be easier. Also, other than in the Quran, are there any other scriptures that give the other namessssssssss (plural) that God has given us. Thanks.

The Qur’an is not the only scripture of God, first of all, and Jewish scriptures contain other names for God. (YHWH is not the only one.)

EDIT: I do not see “I AM” as one of the 99 names of Allah - I am making an assumption that those are the namessssssss (plural) that you were referring to. islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm sufism.org/society/asma/ Why is the original name God gave us not among these? Perhaps it is found elsewhere in the Quran?

It’s nowhere said that Allah has only 99 names.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes, like follow me around on this thread.

Actually, the traditional interpretation of that hadith is that ‘they’ refers to the women who were complaining, though the placement of the pronoun ‘they’ and the predicate ‘are not the best among you’ can refer to either the husbands or the wives. All Spencer has done is give the hadith its historical and majority understanding. He provides the references, so that his audience can see where the traditions of wife beating come from. Your ‘beef’ isn’t with Spencer, its with your religious leaders. Instead of trying to convince us that Spencer is a rat, why don’t you pull the hair out of the rats in Islamic countries who have gotten the hadith so wrong for so long.

Now, who do you consider to be mainstream Islamic scholars? Because all the mainstream Islamic scholars I check, even one well-known online Saudi shaykh whom I respect, (link here) indicates that the hadith is talking about the husbands.

So I’ll assert again that Spencer is reporting from the fringe and proclaiming them mainstream when they are not.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Have you read the Qur’an?

 

[Sister_Amy]

no the Koran says save us from those who have gone astray (meaning Christians) and those who have incurred your anger meaning the Jews and it acknowledges Mohammed as God’s messenger the Lord’s prayer is nothing like that.

No, the Qur’an doesn’t say “save us from those…”

It says “Guide us to the straight path, the path of those on whom you bestowed grace,” and then further clarifies, “not the path of those who incurred wrath or who went astray.”

And there’s nothing in Al-Fatihah about Muhammad, actually.

 

[Sister_Amy]

OK-It’ll take me a couple of days to get ahold of a copy. I’ll try to get a reponse in the next 72 hours

Cool!

In case you can’t find me in posting, I would appreciate if you would PM me so we can discuss it. We can start a new thread or something if you want, but in case I’ve gone missing or something, you can PM me.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53: Can you confirm that “I AM” is one of the names in the Quran?

Nope.

Do you know why “I AM” is not found anywhere in the Quran? Do Islamic scholars give any reasoning as to why It does not appear?

Do Muslims believe that this (I AM) is the Name God gave to Moses?

 

[Agabriel]

No, the Qur’an doesn’t say “save us from those…”

It says “Guide us to the straight path, the path of those on whom you bestowed grace,” and then further clarifies, “not the path of those who incurred wrath or who went astray.”

And there’s nothing in Al-Fatihah about Muhammad, actually.

I find it ironic that Muslims want to pick and chose from Christianity and Judaism, but they don’t want to ‘walk the walk’ of either of these two religions. But they want to go continually go in and say how ‘Muslim’ these people are when in fact they are not ‘Muslim’ at all. They don’t want to follow what Jesus taught, nor what the Prophets of the Bible taught. They instead follow a guy who made up sin/virtue to fit his needs and then enforced it upon others.

Why do they continually do this and then when they become the majority they force people who do want to ‘walk the walk’ of either a Christian or a Jew, to change to accept some dark, twisted version that they have. And they force it down others who don’t want to be either a Christian, Jew or Muslim.

On the thread, ‘Are Muslims okay with Muhammed actions?’, it seems all the Muslims have indeed ok’d Muhammed’s words and deeds that we find abhorrent.

 

[Agabriel]

Well, it seems that some are already sick of Islamic supremacism. Here is an article on a rally.

Now, let us see it happen in Muslim countries by all these so called masses, and see terror stop against ALL people - non-muslims too.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Do you know why “I AM” is not found anywhere in the Quran? Do Islamic scholars give any reasoning as to why It does not appear?

Do Muslims believe that this (I AM) is the Name God gave to Moses?

The Qur’an is revealed in Arabic. I don’t know the answer, I don’t know of a decent reason why it should or shouldn’t be there. Doesn’t seem significant to ask, and I’m not aware of any scholarship on the matter. There probably is some, but I’m just not aware of it.

 

[Jay53]

The Qur’an is revealed in Arabic. I don’t know the answer, I don’t know of a decent reason why it should or shouldn’t be there. Doesn’t seem significant to ask, and I’m not aware of any scholarship on the matter. There probably is some, but I’m just not aware of it.

Why wouldn’t this be significant? If it was significant enough for God to put 99 names in the Quran that He wanted to be called, shouldn’t there be THE one in there that was previously revealed to confirm the authenticity of the Quran - that it* is *in fact a revelation from God? That would be my take on it. Perhaps one of our Arabic speakers can weigh in on this as to whether God’s name as revealed to Moses is confirmed in the Quran.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Aydan]

Okay how do you explain this translation that I’ve seenin the following flash presentation

“Guide us to the straight path, the path of those on whom you bestowed grace,not the path of those who incurred wrath (such as the Jews) nor who went astray (such as the Christians).”

jannah.com/learn/flashprayer1.html

No, the Qur’an doesn’t say “save us from those…”
It says “Guide us to the straight path, the path of those on whom you bestowed grace,” and then further clarifies, “not the path of those who incurred wrath or who went astray.”

And there’s nothing in Al-Fatihah about Muhammad, actually.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

… do Muslims believe nothing happened to Jesus and one day He is preaching God’s message and the next He just disappeared for no reason?

Enemies tried to kill Jesus (pbuh). U know , like us , Jesus (pbuh) also had God . As a humble servant , he prayed to Him always. God listened to his prayer & saved him.

link : Jesus & Mary in the Qur’an

Allah in the Qur’an, says how He cleared Jesus of the disbelief of his people:

"[And remember] when Allah said: O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself, and cleanse you of those who disbelieve; and I will make those who follow [you] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection.

Then to me you will [all] return, and I will judge between you as to that wherein you used to differ. And as for those who disbelieve I will punish them with severe torment in this world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers." (Aal `Imran 3:55-56)

Thus, Allah raised Jesus up to Heaven, and so he was saved from an accursed death on the cross, in contrast to what his enemies and even his self-styled “followers” alleged.

It was the plan of the enemies of Jesus to crucify him, but Allah foiled their plan. So to believe in his death by crucifixion means to believe that those unbelievers were successful against God’s plan. But assuredly they could not crucify Jesus the Messenger of Allah.

The Qur’an says:

"And their saying [is] ‘we slew the Messiah, Jesus Son of Mary, Allah’s messenger’ – They slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them. And those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture.

For of a surety they slew him not; but Allah took him up to Himself.

Allah is Almighty [and] All-Wise. And there is none of the people of the Book [the Jews and Christians] but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them." (An-Nisaa’ 4:157-159)

islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=a3sJmP

 

[planten]

Okay how do you explain this translation that I’ve seenin the following flash presentation

“Guide us to the straight path, the path of those on whom you bestowed grace,not the path of those who incurred wrath (such as the Jews) nor who went astray (such as the Christians).”

jannah.com/learn/flashprayer1.html

**Aydan, the translation and its interpretation that you have given above is correct. The Jews had been cursed by King David and also by Jesus. That is written in the Quran. Ben Masada is posting and saying that Jews had been cursed by many others.

That settles for the Jews. Coming to christians, you are lucky that Quran admits the christians initially had the truth (true guidance) with them. By saying they went astry, it is meant that they went astray after having the true guidance.

Now come to the fault of the Jews, the most selected and elected people of God. Their mistake or sin was that whenever any man of God (messenger Prophet) came to them, they ridiculed him, dishonored him, even tried to kill him. That is written in the Quran. (The example of Jesus is the best one. That was the last of the Israeli messenger Prophet they tried to kill.)

Now come to the christians. Their fault is the opposite of the Jews. They raise the status of any messenger Prophet of God above what he really is. They do not downplay him, harm him or kill him. They respect him more than what he deserves. The example of Jesus, a mere man of God, is well known to every one. They made him into God.

We Muslism are forbidden to follow any such line as that of the Jews and the christians. We are told not to abuse, disrespect or kill any messenger of God. We are told not to raise the status of any man of God above what he really is.

But Muslims have also forgotten this important lesson now and they are guilty of disobeying the important part of that prayer. The present day Muslims are walking in the footsteps of the Jews and the christians. That is why they are losing ground and being punished all over the world.
**

 

[Aydan]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Enemies tried to kill Jesus (pbuh). U know , like us , Jesus (pbuh) also had God . As a humble servant , he prayed to Him always. God listened to his prayer & saved him.

link : Jesus & Mary in the Qur’an

Allah in the Qur’an, says how He cleared Jesus of the disbelief of his people:

"[And remember] when Allah said: O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself, and cleanse you of those who disbelieve; and I will make those who follow [you] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection.

Then to me you will [all] return, and I will judge between you as to that wherein you used to differ. And as for those who disbelieve I will punish them with severe torment in this world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers." (Aal `Imran 3:55-56)

Thus, Allah raised Jesus up to Heaven, and so he was saved from an accursed death on the cross, in contrast to what his enemies and even his self-styled “followers” alleged.

It was the plan of the enemies of Jesus to crucify him, but Allah foiled their plan. So to believe in his death by crucifixion means to believe that those unbelievers were successful against God’s plan. But assuredly they could not crucify Jesus the Messenger of Allah.

The Qur’an says:

"And their saying [is] ‘we slew the Messiah, Jesus Son of Mary, Allah’s messenger’ – They slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them. And those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture.

For of a surety they slew him not; but Allah took him up to Himself.

Allah is Almighty [and] All-Wise. And there is none of the people of the Book [the Jews and Christians] but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them." (An-Nisaa’ 4:157-159)

islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=a3sJmP

**Aydan, the translation and its interpretation that you have given above is correct. The Jews had been cursed by King David and also by Jesus. That is written in the Quran. Ben Masada is posting and saying that Jews had been cursed by many others.

That settles for the Jews. Coming to christians, you are lucky that Quran admits the christians initially had the truth (true guidance) with them. By saying they went astry, it is meant that they went astray after having the true guidance.

Now come to the fault of the Jews, the most selected and elected people of God. Their mistake or sin was that whenever any man of God (messenger Prophet) came to them, they ridiculed him, dishonored him, even tried to kill him. That is written in the Quran. (The example of Jesus is the best one. That was the last of the Israeli messenger Prophet they tried to kill.)

Now come to the christians. Their fault is the opposite of the Jews. They raise the status of any messenger Prophet of God above what he really is. They do not downplay him, harm him or kill him. They respect him more than what he deserves. The example of Jesus, a mere man of God, is well known to every one. They made him into God.

We Muslism are forbidden to follow any such line as that of the Jews and the christians. We are told not to abuse, disrespect or kill any messenger of God. We are told not to raise the status of any man of God above what he really is.

But Muslims have also forgotten this important lesson now and they are guilty of disobeying the important part of that prayer. The present day Muslims are walking in the footsteps of the Jews and the christians. That is why they are losing ground and being punished all over the world.
**

Okay now as Christians we believe that Jesus was given a beating was whiped and then he was crowned with a crown made of thorns. Do Muslims believe that all of these things were done to Jesus or not?

 

[planten]

Okay now as Christians we believe that Jesus was given a beating was whiped and then he was crowned with a crown made of thorns. Do Muslims believe that all of these things were done to Jesus or not?

**I hope that it was all done. If not then also no harm. It is written in the bible for some purpose, by some witnesses. It is not being told by Jesus in his own words.

Once he was arrested, it is quite possible that he was beaten and whipped and crowned to humilate him. I cannot say anything definite about it because it is not in the Quran. But need not deny that all bad treatment was done to Jesus by his arch enemies.

If you are interested in finding something else from me then I tell you that it was Jesus himself on the cross and he was not replaced by any other person. Jesus had cried out and called his God on the cross.

The replacement theory is totally unislamic, illogical, has no base in islam. It is also not suitable for any Jew or christian. Would you believe that Jesus himself was not on the cross but some other person was put on the cross in place of Jesus?? I hope not. Thanks.**