Question on Islam -- round 4

[hamba2han]

I used to feel uncomfortable reading parts of the Bible many years ago… until I eventually discovered that the Bible actually strengthened my own faith in Islam.

Now I don’t feel any discomfort at all reading and quoting verses from the Bible and other scriptures, all praise to God.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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… Bible actually strengthened my own faith in Islam.

Same happened to me

I was shocked to read all the dirty allegations Bible have against God’s several Prophets (peace be upon them all). Also I had no idea that there are so many verses on war & killings . Media gave me an idea that only Quran has verses on war .

I think , all Muslims & non-Muslims should read Quran , Bible & other holy books for comparison purpose.

 

[SteveLohr]

I used to feel uncomfortable reading parts of the Bible many years ago… until I eventually discovered that the Bible actually strengthened my own faith in Islam.

Now I don’t feel any discomfort at all reading and quoting verses from the Bible and other scriptures, all praise to God.

Just out of curiosity, how did reading the Bible strengthen your faith in Islam?

 

[SteveLohr]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Same happened to me

I was shocked to read all the dirty allegations Bible have against God’s several Prophets (peace be upon them all). Also I had no idea that there are so many verses on war & killings . Media gave me an idea that only Quran has verses on war .

I think , all Muslims & non-Muslims should read Quran , Bible & other holy books for comparison purpose.

Muslim Woman-Although the Bible has verses on war, the God of the Bible has not authorized military conquest since the Israelites took Canaan. In contrast, Allah has not placed such a limitation on Muslims, but in fact encourages conquest, if in the name of Islam. Is this your understanding?

Regards,

 

[Agabriel]

I am sorry, but from the posts of Muslim woman - I do not get the idea that she has read anything from the Bible. There is nothing in them that indicate that to me.

I even think planten has read more of the bible than her. but, even at that it is just bits and pieces that can be easily picked up in Muslim websites that I peruse that try to justify islam, or Muhammad, via the Bible, or try to attack the Bible.

And here is why I don’t think that the Bible reading from some Muslims take place - the scarcity of Bibles in Muslim lands. These texts are mostly supposed to be taken out of the sight of Muslims. And Christians have to hide them and any other indication that they are Christian.

 

[Aydan]

Muslim Woman-Although the Bible has verses on war, the God of the Bible has not authorized military conquest since the Israelites took Canaan. In contrast, Allah has not placed such a limitation on Muslims, but in fact encourages conquest, if in the name of Islam. Is this your understanding?

Regards,

I’ve listened to an English translation of the Koran with the exception of the last chapter but I’ve heard most of it. I find it intriguing that Muslim woman would bring up the violence in the Bible because one of the first things I noticed is how much more the Koran focuses on hell and torment of what it calls nonbelievers and I was shocked about the amount of violence contained in the Koran. But reading the Koran has only strengthened my faith as a Catholic because it scared me enough to make me realize how lucky I was as a Christian I don’t have to worry about the scales like Muslims do and now that I’ve read the Koran I have a much better appreciation for why Jesus sacrificed himself by dying on the cross. At first I was afraid to read it but now I’m not because I know Catholic doctrine so I can easily discern between Islamic teachings and Christian ones. Most importantly I’m not afraid to read it now because I remember what Jesus said to the disciples. Do not be afraid I’m with you always.

 

[dzheremi]

I know this is late, but I’ve been busy, and I still think Sister Amy deserves a personal reply.

Was Jesus in the East or the West?

Jesus Christ is Lord of both East and West. He may have been born in Bethlehem, but His sacrifice and His enduring example of absolute love and holiness are for everyone, of all nations, nationalities, and times.

Of course it is the truth. The sole exception is actually calling God “Father,” which isn’t found in Islam, but even the style of the prayer is Islamic.

You misunderstand gravely if you think that calling God “Father” is a mere title, so that this is all that needs to be elided in order to make the prayer fully Islamic. To the contrary, it shows a completely different relationship to God that we have in Christianity that you do not have in Islam, which disqualifies it from being anything like an Islamic prayer. We do not utter the shahada and say that it is Christian. Please grant us and our prayers the same consideration.

Because the prayer is first of all directed to the Almighty, who is described as being in heaven, and then His name is honored. It talks about the will of God being done both on earth and heaven, demonstrating that the person praying is submitting himself to God’s will. It asks for sustenance, which comes only from God, so acknowledges the person’s dependence on Him. It also includes an element of repentance, seeking forgiveness. And it asks for guidance and steadfastness in religion, on His Law.

All of these are foundational to Christian theology, and as such were in place centuries before Islam and Muhammad. That you recognize these as central to your own religion is fine by me, but it’s taking the extra step and actually claiming the prayer itself to be Islamic that I have a problem with.

It’s a lot like the first chapter of the Qur’an, really. So what if you don’t like that the teachings of Islam are like those of Jesus.

“So what”? Well, I don’t know about you, but I care when someone who rebukes my religion turns around and tries to claim central parts of it for themselves. If I walked around all day talking about how the Islamic Allah is a pagan moon god or whatever other people here and elsewhere say, then I tried to enter a mosque and pray Islamic prayers with you (any that may not directly contradict my tradition, that is), what would you say? I bet it wouldn’t be “so what”. By the same token, when you tell me that MY LORD AND MY GOD’S PRAYER is rightfully within your tradition, I cannot just say “so what”. Keep your hands off of the Body of Christ unless it is to feel His wounds and know once and for all that He is risen. Not everything is for your gluttony just because we do not practice the bibliophilia that you do regarding your own scriptures. The Lord’s Prayer is still foundational to Christianity, recited at every Mass around the world. It is not for you, who has chosen to follow another way.

I must tell you, Sister Amy, that while I still think that you are ultimately a good person who is concerned with doing good in the name of God, responses such as the one I am responding to now leave me quite cold. Maybe I have misjudged you. Maybe you have no respect for anything outside of your own world.

 

[planten]

Muslim Woman-Although the Bible has verses on war, the God of the Bible has not authorized military conquest since the Israelites took Canaan. In contrast, Allah has not placed such a limitation on Muslims, but in fact encourages conquest, if in the name of Islam. Is this your understanding?

Regards,

** Hamb2han and Muslim Woman have both given good replies. That is the true condition of every truthful reader of all pious scriptures. I have full faith in Abraham (who was niether a Jew nor a christian, like me) and I have full faith in Moses and Jesus. That is my blind faith. The Quran has taught me all that.

The Quran has told me that Allah sent his messengers to all nations of the world. If any one will deny it then that person will be greedy, narrow minded or racist.

The Quran has told me that all messengers of God were innocent in such a manner that they did not commit sins. If ever they made any mistake, they were guided by God to correct ( their mistakes) themselves openly before the public. So their record was clean, no sin, no misbahiour remained in their record.

There are many more such good things in the Quran. One has to be open minded to gain any advantage from the Quran. In the very beginning in verse 2:2 of Quran, it is told that there is guidance in the Quran for the (responsible, Muttaquee) God fearing people. I am with Hamba2han and Muslim Woman in their recent replies.**

 

[planten]

I’ve listened to an English translation of the Koran with the exception of the last chapter but I’ve heard most of it. I find it intriguing that Muslim woman would bring up the violence in the Bible because one of the first things I noticed is how much more the Koran focuses on hell and torment of what it calls nonbelievers and I was shocked about the amount of violence contained in the Koran. But reading the Koran has only strengthened my faith as a Catholic because it scared me enough to make me realize how lucky I was as a Christian I don’t have to worry about the scales like Muslims do and now that I’ve read the Koran I have a much better appreciation for why Jesus sacrificed himself by dying on the cross. At first I was afraid to read it but now I’m not because I know Catholic doctrine so I can easily discern between Islamic teachings and Christian ones. Most importantly I’m not afraid to read it now because I remember what Jesus said to the disciples. Do not be afraid I’m with you always.

Aydan, you benefitted by reading the Quran. Your faith became stronger on Jesus by reading the Quran. That is very good. That is what we want. We want that you be a good Catholic. Your faith should be stronger and stronger. We want that your faith in Jesus teaching should be stronger. So please keep on reading Quran and seek guidance from Your God.

 

[planten]

I am sorry, but from the posts of Muslim woman - I do not get the idea that she has read anything from the Bible. There is nothing in them that indicate that to me.

I even think planten has read more of the bible than her. but, even at that it is just bits and pieces that can be easily picked up in Muslim websites that I peruse that try to justify islam, or Muhammad, via the Bible, or try to attack the Bible.

And here is why I don’t think that the Bible reading from some Muslims take place - the scarcity of Bibles in Muslim lands. These texts are mostly supposed to be taken out of the sight of Muslims. And Christians have to hide them and any other indication that they are Christian.

**ALgabriel, Situation in Muslim countries may not be good. But it not so bad as you think. Perhaps in some arab countries there may be some bigots who suppress the bible. They should never do it. Rather they should reform themselves and try to improve their own conditions and leave the minorities to their affairs.

We read the bible OT and NT and we understand everything, even the context. Thanks.

Have you considered the bad condition of the Catholics in India too? I noticed that the Catholics there were facing hardship since a long time due to the tough stand of the HIndu majority. There is secular government there which tries to inforce peaceful life. But it fails to protect the minorities i.e. Muslims and Christians.
**

 

[SteveLohr]

** Hamb2han and Muslim Woman have both given good replies. That is the true condition of every truthful reader of all pious scriptures. I have full faith in Abraham (who was niether a Jew nor a christian, like me) and I have full faith in Moses and Jesus. That is my blind faith. The Quran has taught me all that.

The Quran has told me that Allah sent his messengers to all nations of the world. If any one will deny it then that person will be greedy, narrow minded or racist.

The Quran has told me that all messengers of God were innocent in such a manner that they did not commit sins. If ever they made any mistake, they were guided by God to correct ( their mistakes) themselves openly before the public. So their record was clean, no sin, no misbahiour remained in their record.

There are many more such good things in the Quran. One has to be open minded to gain any advantage from the Quran. In the very beginning in verse 2:2 of Quran, it is told that there is guidance in the Quran for the (responsible, Muttaquee) God fearing people. I am with Hamba2han and Muslim Woman in their recent replies.**

Planten-
With all due respect, your reply doesn’t address the question I raised in post #549. I pointed out that the God of Israel hasn’t authorized military conquest since the Israelites took Canaan. I also noted that in contrast, Allah has placed no such limitation on conquest in the name of Islam. Is that your understanding of Islam, or am I missing something? If I am missing something, than what?

On another point, have you considered the evidence I put before you regarding the divinity of Jesus? (See posts 527, 528, 530). What is your opinion of this evidence? Do you accept or reject it? If so, why?

 

[trdchubi]

My reaction is more than even just intellectually not liking/agreeing with the Quran. I literally feel physically uncomfortable if I read more than a couple of verses. It’s like my brain shuts off and I have to close the page/skip ahead whatever - I feel that uncomfortable. I’ve tried reading some verses and have discussed some of the more problematic ones (for me, anyway) here - and I’ve enjoyed most of the discussions I’ve had. That’s about all I can handle, though. Even when someone posts several verses or ahadith, I have to skim them or read a couple and then go back and finish later. Not sure what that’s all about - just one of my quirks (of many ). I just learn to deal with it.

And again, that is not to offend anyone - just my own personal experience.

And I thought I am the only lousy reader of the quran and hadith here. Well I guess WE are used to the narrative accounts in the bible where we get to read the message in a manner that God speak in stories.

Unlike the Bible, the quran is not a collection of books or stories, but a collation of utterances supposed to have come from allah through mohammed’s convenience. Consequently it is very repetitive - so much so that it can start to feel hypnotic after reading a lot at once.

I see Christians DISCERN with Wisdom which is a total difference with muslims. (Reason why christian brains shut down reading quranic verses). muslims are willing to submit to muhammed’s force and manipulation which makes them brainwashed and blind followers where all common sense as a human being dissapears.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

…Allah has not placed such a limitation on Muslims, but in fact encourages conquest,

And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, illtreated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is:

“Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help.”

( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #75)

 

[Booklover]

Hi Aydan… the quote from above which I’ve made in bold/black, is that a passage in the koran? And if it is can you tell me which one is it…

Thanks!
Pam

Hi Pam! Yes, it is in the Quran: 1:6-7

Vickie

 

[trdchubi]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, illtreated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is:

“Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help.”

( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #75)

Is it true that your religion is for the assistance of the weak, illtreated and oppressed? How come there are still slum dwellers in Saudi Arabia, the seat of your religion? What happen to Islamic charities with the million of muslims giving their alms amounting to lots of money?

Is the Zakah just for lip service or is it really meant to fund something else like “Fight those who Oppress You Movement” where volunteers are running, shouting and bombing for allahs cause.

 

[trdchubi]

Jay,… you are not alone. I too have the same problem. I can read bits and pieces and then I go to the tafsir to try to understand what I’ve read.

My problem is… and it’s a mental problem… processing arabic names. My brain shuts down and I cannot keep up. And it isn’t just the koran, it’s anything dealing with arabic names and words.

And then the PBUH is mixed in there with everytime mohamad is mentioned or any other
“person” is mentioned I shut down even quicker.

Well its an abbreviation for his title like the M.D of a doctor. muhammad’s PBUH means Pathetic Behind Unto Heaven and muhammad SAW stands for Sexually Active Warmonger

 

[Booklover]

Jay,… you are not alone. I too have the same problem. I can read bits and pieces and then I go to the tafsir to try to understand what I’ve read.

My problem is… and it’s a mental problem… processing arabic names. My brain shuts down and I cannot keep up. And it isn’t just the koran, it’s anything dealing with arabic names and words.

And then the PBUH is mixed in there with everytime mohamad is mentioned or any other
“person” is mentioned I shut down even quicker.

I have the same problem as well! I can only take a little bit at a time, and that little bit goes a long way! As ex-Muslim Wafa Sultan says:

“When I examined the Koran, the hadith, and the Islamic books under a microscope, I came to the absolute conviction that it is impossible – impossible! – for any human being to read the biography of Muhammad and believe in it, and yet emerge a psychologically and mentally healthy person.”

Vickie

 

[planten]

Well its an abbreviation for his title like the M.D of a doctor. muhammad’s PBUH means Pathetic Behind Unto Heaven and muhammad SAW stands for Sexually Active Warmonger

*Are you a bloody ool praising your loved ones and slandering others?

 

[Agabriel]

*Are you a bloody ool praising your loved ones and slandering others?

You know planten, we know that you muslims put this PBUH behind Muhammed’s name because you guys think that if you put all those behind his name you will tip the scales in your favor for the day. That is what you guys consider ‘good works’. It is all shallow.

I can’t count how many posts you have slandered Jesus, Mary, Christians, etc.

It is probably not good to do such a thing just because of the nature of this forum, but you are the last person that should be calling a person to task for their behavior.

 

[Agabriel]

Back to the comments about reading the Quran.

Has anyone read Mein Kampf? I have and I found the same problem with reading it. And it is not written by a literary genius either, but it would probably have a higher grade than the Quran as for style. Even translations set aside, the Quran rambles on and on…

Both are pretty much concerned with themselves - Hitler and then Muhammad. Both twist history to satisfy their own agenda. Both guys prefer compulsion to their ways vs Jesus who never forced followers to continue believing. John 6:31-69 (‘Whoever changed his islamic religion, then kill him.’ Bukhari vol9 bok84 no57) But there are also many other similarities between these two books. It is why I read ‘Fascism and Paganism, A Brief Comparison of Nazism, Communism and Islam’ which goes further into the similarities.

All are creepy, but they are closer to us than one would like to imagine. This type of government has been with us probably since humans gathered together in numbers. What we have, the Greeks had, and so very few others had is rare. To me, it explains why Muslims are so easily led and do nothing for the most part to change their conditions. It explains why the UK, and Europe, is ‘shutting down’ in regards to freedoms. I just read that they are all in a tither about Geert Wilder’s freedom of speech. The Europeans and UK are afraid. Fear, terror and these are highly prized characteristics in Islam (as it was in Nazism too).

Oh well, creepy is here on our shores and so now we have to deal with it.