Question on Islam -- round 4

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Knowing God through Science

Shakil - Pakistan

What is the relation between science and Islam?

Nabil Haroun :… The very first words revealed to Muhammad, peace be upon him, carried an instruction to learn: {Read!} as well as a precise reference to a biological concept.

Man is created from `alaq. This in Arabic means something that clings, referring to the clinging of a sperm to the ovum to start ovulation, or the subsequent clinging of the resulting zygote to the uterine wall.

These first few verses end with a reminder of the bounties of Allah in guiding man to knowledge. They read what means:

Read! In the name of your Lord Who created. Created Man from `alaq (what clings, a clot clinging leech-like). Read! And your Lord is the Most Honorable, Who taught by the pen. He taught Man what he did not know. (Al-`Alaq 96:1-5)

… Inviting to reflect on the Creation. The Qur’an reads what means:

Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of the night and the daytime there are signs indeed for ones endowed with intellects.

The ones who remember Allah, upright and seated on their sides, and meditate upon the creation of the heavens and the earth: “Our Lord, in no way have You created this untruthfully.” (Aal `Imran 3:190-191)

…The sun and the moon [run] to all-precisely reckoned [courses]. And the stars and the trees prostrate themselves. And the heaven, He raised it up, and laid down the balance. (Ar-Rahman 55:5-7)

…It is also narrated in the hadith that:

“The sun and the moon do not eclipse due to the death or birth of anyone. They are two signs of Allah’s, so, pray when you see them.”

…And they have taken to themselves gods, apart from Him, that create nothing and themselves are created and possess for themselves neither harm nor profit; neither do they possess death, nor life, nor uprising. (Al-Furqan 25:3)

readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016316

 

[Iwesshome]

Do all the Catholics believe that Jesus was not a prophet at all.?? That is good or strange news for me.

Unless I am mistaken no practicing Christians or Catholics believe Jesus is a prophet. They look upon him as the Son of God (incarnation of God) part of the Holy Trinity. But he is also considered the Messiah who was prophesied in the Old Testament.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful



A Hope for Desperate Souls

Julaybib, the Prophet’s companion

By Amatullah Abdullah

…Julaybib was an orphan, deformed and extremely short. He was brutally rejected by society because the people were more concerned with his physical appearance and status than integrity.

…In addition to his physical appearance, another important factor in his mistreatment had to do with his lineage. Lineage was an essential part in the Arab society he lived in, just as it is still important today in many cases. One’s lineage determined his or her status in the society. His physical appearance, and unknown lineage, made people shun and spurn him. He was an outcast which caused him much public humiliation and disgrace.

…The Prophet went to a man of the Ansar and said:

“Give me your daughter for marriage.”

The man answered excitedly, “Yes, O Messenger of Allah , it would be an honor and a blessing.”

For which the Prophet said, “I do not want her for myself.”

The Ansari man asked, “Then for whom, O Messenger of Allah?”

And the Prophet answered, “For Julaybib.”

When the Ansari man heard this, he was shocked and said, “O Messenger of Allah, let me consult her mother.” So he went to the girl’s mother (his wife) and told her, “The Messenger of Allah is proposing marriage for your daughter.”

The wife of the Ansari seemed overjoyed and said, “Yes, it would be a pleasure.”

The Ansari explained to his wife that the Prophet was not proposing to marry their daughter for himself but he is proposing on behalf of Julaybib.

His wife was almost shaken and immediately responded, “What! Julaybib? No, by Allah, we will not marry her to him.”

When the Ansari prepared to leave to meet the Messenger of Allah and mentioned to him his mother’s disapproval, his daughter, a pious Muslim, asked her father, “Who is asking for my hand?”

Her mother told her that the Prophet was asking her hand on behalf Julaybib.

Their daughter instantly asked them, “Are you refusing to follow the command of the Messenger of Allah? Follow his command, for I will not come to any harm.”

The following day the marriage was in place, Uthman and Ali, two of the Prophet’s Companions, presented Julaybib a gift of money to help arrange the wedding reception, and to purchase necessary accommodation.

So the Prophet married the beautiful daughter of the Ansari to Julaybib who was once rejected by the whole society. The attitude of the daughter of the Ansari was that of a true believer.

The daughter’s attitude shows her confidence of a Muslim woman who could not be influenced by the whims of the society. Unlike the parent’s of today’s world who are more concerned about status and money, her parents’ reaction to her approval explains how Islam does not pressure a woman nor does it disregard her right to choose her husband.

Islam gave the happiness Julaybib deserved and he lived happily together with his beautiful wife until he was martyred.

…After a battle, the Prophet asked his Companions:

“Is anyone missing amongst you?”

They said: “So and so and so.”

He asked them again: “Is there anyone missing amongst you?”

They answered: “So and so and so.”

He asked them for the third time: “Is there anyone missing amongst you?”

They said: “No.”

Thereupon the Prophet said:

“But I see that Julaybib is missing.”

The Companions searched for him amongst those who had been killed and found him by the side of seven enemies whom he had killed. He had been killed. The Prophet came there and stood by his body and said:

“He killed seven people. Then his opponents killed him. He is mine and I am his.”

He then placed him upon his hands and there was none else to lift him but the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Then the grave was dug for him and he was placed in it.

His life is an example and hope for human souls which are filled with desolation.

readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1237705798451&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam/DIELayout

 

[R_not]

Knowing God through Science

Shakil - Pakistan

What is the relation between science and Islam?

Nabil Haroun :… The very first words revealed to Muhammad, peace be upon him, carried an instruction to learn: {Read!} as well as a precise reference to a biological concept.

Man is created from `alaq. This in Arabic means something that clings, referring to the clinging of a sperm to the ovum to start ovulation, or the subsequent clinging of the resulting zygote to the uterine wall.

These first few verses end with a reminder of the bounties of Allah in guiding man to knowledge. They read what means:

Read! In the name of your Lord Who created. Created Man from `alaq (what clings, a clot clinging leech-like). Read! And your Lord is the Most Honorable, Who taught by the pen. He taught Man what he did not know. (Al-`Alaq 96:1-5)

… Inviting to reflect on the Creation. The Qur’an reads what means:

Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of the night and the daytime there are signs indeed for ones endowed with intellects.

The ones who remember Allah, upright and seated on their sides, and meditate upon the creation of the heavens and the earth: “Our Lord, in no way have You created this untruthfully.” (Aal `Imran 3:190-191)

…The sun and the moon [run] to all-precisely reckoned [courses]. And the stars and the trees prostrate themselves. And the heaven, He raised it up, and laid down the balance. (Ar-Rahman 55:5-7)

…It is also narrated in the hadith that:

“The sun and the moon do not eclipse due to the death or birth of anyone. They are two signs of Allah’s, so, pray when you see them.”

…And they have taken to themselves gods, apart from Him, that create nothing and themselves are created and possess for themselves neither harm nor profit; neither do they possess death, nor life, nor uprising. (Al-Furqan 25:3)

You know, if you guys read your own koran you might not so willingly tell us to read it. Once again it contradicts itself. Science and the koran are oxymorons. In fact, the koran itself is its own oxymoron if you look up the word, oxymoron from the Webster’s dictionary: : a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (as cruel kindness) ; broadly : something (as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements.

Anyway, the koran isn’t even consistent on the number of days that their allah took to create the world.

koran surah says 8 days creation 41:9-10, 12, and then surah 10:3 says 6 days!

Here are the passages themselves:

In surah 10 we see that creation took 6 days.

10:3 Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then He established Himself upon the Throne, directing all things…

In surah 41 we see it was done in 8 days (2+4+2=8)

41:9 Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals ? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.

41:10 He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;

41:12 Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower

Poor allah, no wonder it needs help from mohammed so often. (read the posts on this thread about mohammed committing shirk - maybe mohammed was forced to commit shirk in order to help his god who couldn’t count, or maybe it was that it couldn’t remember how many days he took to create the world. Aren’t we told that the koran is the direct word of allah?)

I don’t put much stock in the science of the koran. 6-6 What is islam - Dr. Robert Morey (over 100 errors - scientific errors, historical errors - the koran says Alexander the Great was a muslim, a righteous man, a monotheist and lived to a ripe old age - and none of these are true. Alexander was a pagan, a polytheist, a wicked man and he died young. Oh and he lived centuries before Cleopatra and Julius Caesar were on earth.

Speeches put into the mouths of Abraham, Moses, the Apostles, Jesus - were not even in the vocabulary at that time.

A lot of fables in the koran are brought up in this video and grammar and science fables.

Basic errors of what the Jews and also what the Christians believe are in the koran.

 

[jakasaki]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakasaki
…“I bear witness that there is no deity (none truely to be worshipped) but, Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah”,

… if it is correct from Arabic to English.

Reply:

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Yes , it’s correct . But Prophet (pbuh) repeatedly reminded us that he is a humble servant of God Almighty. In other sites , I noticed that they included the word Abd/ servant in the testimony. So , I think , it is better to say:

"I bear witness that there is no deity worthy to be worshiped but Allah and Muhammad is His servant and Messenger."

Ash hadu alla ilaha illa Allah, wa ash hadu anna **Mohammadan **abduhu wa rasuluhu

OK, Thanks…

Now, what I would like to know is **who inserted mohamads **name in the shahada line.

Is that something you are taught from childhood or a conversion to islam to say because when you read the actual line from the koran, no where does it mention the name mohamad.

Transliteration: Shahida Allahu annahu la ilahailla huwa walmala-ikatu waoloo alAAilmi qa-imanbilqisti la ilaha illa huwaalAAazeezu alhakeem

I’ve included them for your review and discussion.

Aal-E-Imran 3:18

Muhsin Khan: Allah bears witness that La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), and the angels, and those having knowledge (also give this witness); (He is always) maintaining His creation in Justice. La ilah illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

Yusuf Ali: There is no god but He: That is the witness of Allah, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.

Pickthal: Allah (Himself) is Witness that there is no Allah save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no Allah save Him the Almighty, the Wise.

Shakir: Allah bears witness that there is no god but He, and (so do) the angels and those possessed of knowledge, maintaining His creation with justice; there is no god but He, the Mighty, the Wise.

Dr. Ghali: Allah bears witness that there is no god except He, and the Angels and the ones endowed with knowledge, upright with equity (bear witness). There is no god except He, The Ever-Mighty, The Ever-Wise.

searchquran.net/quran.php?q=3

 

[neploho]

You know, if you guys read your own koran you might not so willingly tell us to read it. Once again it contradicts itself. Science and the koran are oxymorons. In fact, the koran itself is its own oxymoron if you look up the word, oxymoron from the Webster’s dictionary: : a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (as cruel kindness) ; broadly : something (as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements.

Anyway, the koran isn’t even consistent on the number of days that their allah took to create the world.

koran surah says 8 days creation 41:9-10, 12, and then surah 10:3 says 6 days!

Here are the passages themselves:

In surah 10 we see that creation took 6 days.

In surah 41 we see it was done in 8 days (2+4+2=8)

Poor allah, no wonder it needs help from mohammed so often. (read the posts on this thread about mohammed committing shirk - maybe mohammed was forced to commit shirk in order to help his god who couldn’t count, or maybe it was that it couldn’t remember how many days he took to create the world. Aren’t we told that the koran is the direct word of allah?)

I don’t put much stock in the science of the koran. 6-6 What is islam - Dr. Robert Morey (over 100 errors - scientific errors, historical errors - the koran says Alexander the Great was a muslim, a righteous man, a monotheist and lived to a ripe old age - and none of these are true. Alexander was a pagan, a polytheist, a wicked man and he died young. Oh and he lived centuries before Cleopatra and Julius Caesar were on earth.

Speeches put into the mouths of Abraham, Moses, the Apostles, Jesus - were not even in the vocabulary at that time.

A lot of fables in the koran are brought up in this video and grammar and science fables.

Basic errors of what the Jews and also what the Christians believe are in the koran.

As distressing as it is to consider the content of your mission and beliefs I have to say I enjoy reading your posts. They always make an interesting study of surrealist humor even if they are intended to be serious.

As for your crackpot preacher, I’m not sure if you’d consider his “scholarship” regarding Catholicism as reliable.

 

[Iwesshome]

R_not to be fair anyone can do a quick Google search and find websites dedicated in pointing out the Bibles OT/NT errors and contradictions.

I don’t put much stock in the science of the koran. 6-6 What is islam - Dr. Robert Morey (over 100 errors - scientific errors, historical errors - the koran says Alexander the Great was a muslim, a righteous man, a monotheist and lived to a ripe old age - and none of these are true. Alexander was a pagan, a polytheist, a wicked man and he died young. Oh and he lived centuries before Cleopatra and Julius Caesar were on earth

I don’t put much stock into people posting Youtube links from non-credibal people. Let’s take a look at Dr. Robert Morey. From the Youtube comment: “A Christian Apologist Researcher and Author of the Book The Islamic Invasion” His book his considered anti-Islamic along with most of his work with the purpose of “scaring us into fearing Muslims.” He is also labeled extremely critical of non-Evangelical Christians.

• The Dooyeweerdian concept of the word of God. Nutley, N.J.: Presbyterian & Reformed Pub. Co., 1974.
• How to answer a Jehovah’s Witness. Minneapolis: Bethany Fellowship, 1980. ISBN 0871232065
• Horoscopes and the Christian. Minneapolis, Minn. : Bethany House, 1981. ISBN 0871232022
• How to answer a Mormon. Minneapolis, Minn: Bethany House, 1983. ISBN 087123260X
• Death and the Afterlife. Minneapolis, Minn: Bethany House, 1984
• The new atheism and the erosion of freedom. Minneapolis, MN : Bethany House, 1986. ISBN 0871238896 : 9780871238894
• The origins and teachings of Freemasonry. Southbridge, Mass.: Crowne Publications, 1990. ISBN 0925703281
• Islam unveiled: the true desert storm. Shermans Dale, PA: Scholars Press, 1991. ISBN 0962939404
• The Islamic Invasion: Confronting the world’s fastest growing religion. Eugene, Or.: Harvest House, 1992. ISBN 0890819831
• The truth about masons. Eugene, Or.: Harvest House Publishers, 1993. ISBN 1565070771
• Satan’s devices Eugene, Or.: Harvest House, 1993. ISBN 0890818819
• The moon-god Allah in the archeology of the Middle East. Newport, PA : Research and Education Foundation, 1994.
• Fearing God : the key to the treasure house of heaven. Yorba Linda, CA: Davidson Press, 1999. ISBN 1891833529
• An Open Letter to Muslims Orange, CA : Faith Defenders, 2001.
• Muhammad the racist prophet. Orange, CA: Faith Defenders, [ca. 2001]
• Who owns the land of Israel? Orange, CA: Faith Defenders, ca. 2001
• Winning the War Against Radical Islam. Christian Scholars Press, 2002. ISBN 1-931230-08-0
• The Encyclopedia of Practical Christianity. Las Vegas, Nev.: Christian Scholars Press, 2003. ISBN 1931230110

This man was even fired from doing his job << Link >>

Morey has been plagued with multiple charges of everything from gross and habitual financial impropriety to documented proof of misrepresentation of the convictions of others, to academic fraud with a bogus doctorate in Islam amidst outragous claims as “having read everything in the US Library of Congress on Islam” (over 7,000 volumes, monograms etc. to say nothing of the fact he cannot read Arabic). A constant array of charges of abusive leadership by members and former members of his church and disassociation from him by many if not most of his former colleagues no longer willing to invite him to participate in the conference circuit, Morey has lost both his radio broadcast and his building plus many church members and now appears to be in the process of losing what declining credibility he has left in his self inflicted course of demise driven by the ramifications of his own actions. Now ‘FIRE’ have requested his resignation from it.

I understand you may not appreciate Islam but you seem to really go out of your way to hate it. I am not saying there isn’t some truth behind the statements but when someone takes partial truth, adds misconception and labels it as fact you breed hate.

 

[Reuben_J]

Eucharisted:

**[7.179] And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.

[32.13] And if We had pleased We would certainly have given to every soul its guidance, but the word (which had gone forth) from Me was just: I will certainly fill hell with the jinn and men together.**

Why dose Allah create people and jinn for hell? Why dose it please him to create people just so he can send them to hell?

It’d be like if a woman got pregnant - just so she could abort her children. It is monstrious, yet only a shadow compared to what Allah seems pleased to do, and I want to know why Allah dose it.

I am not so sure about the verses, they could mean something else considering that nuance can make lots of difference in Arabic, but on the surface such teaching can never be anything from God. God does not make hell so that he deliberately put people there nor he purposely witholds his guidance to some people.

The only entity I have in mind who would want to fill hell with people and that’s because it is his abode – that person is certainly NOT God.

Now if the meaning of the verses is not what it meant to be and that it could be something else then surely the Quran has a peculiar way of transmitting its message. It seems strange therefore for a religion which prides itself in being simple to do that. It is not so simple after all.

 

[Reuben_J]

Unless I am mistaken no practicing Christians or Catholics believe Jesus is a prophet. They look upon him as the Son of God (incarnation of God) part of the Holy Trinity. But he is also considered the Messiah who was prophesied in the Old Testament.

We believe that Jesus is both man and divine. He is not just a prophet.

He is a prophet in so much he taught and prophesized the word of God. Similarly like the high priest who offered sacrifice for the atonement for the sin of the nation of Israel, Jesus is a priest (high priest) in so much he offered sacrifice albeit himself as atonement for the sin of the whole world. You can consider Jesus a king too in so much he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords in heaven and on earth and under the earth.

Likewise when Christians are to emulate Christ, they too are called to be prophets (to preach and teach the word of God), to be kings (to be leaders in doing good, love and followers of Christ) and priests (literally; and figuratively to sacrifice one selves perpetually by dying to the selves and free from sins).

However, the poster whom you address manipulated the question, which in my opinion is absolutely despicable and constitutes immoral act being a forum participant. When Christians mentioned that Jesus is not a prophet it is understood (in the Muslims sense) that he is more than just a prophet – he is God. This is understood by most good ordinary Muslims. Though they differ in this belief I have never come across any Muslims who do not understand this Christians belief.

Thus Jesus could be the person prophesized in the Deuteronomy verse. Nevertheless the fullness of the revelation about the Messiah was never fully understood until Jesus had completed his mission on earth. Even his disciples did not fully understand the implication until after the death of Jesus beginning on the road to Emmaus. Basically Christians are witnesses for Jesus, as too were his disciples. This may not be understood by Muslims and may need further clarification.

What strikes me though is the obvious bullying tactic of the said poster. He also threatened. If I remember correctly he also advocated killing of those who insult Mohammad in one of the earlier threads. I cannot say that this is typical Muslims because some Muslims do conduct themselves honorably. I think one such poster is a Shia Muslim. But that cannot be said of the two Ahmadi Muslim posters, one have been banned from the forum. I thought their behavior is simply abhorrent and devoid of any forum ethic. Again I cannot say that they are representatives of what the Ahmadis are as I have met none in the real world. But coming from a sect who openly claims that they are a branch of peaceful Islam, they surely do not account well for themselves. If that’s what they claim then by their behavior I tend to agree with some Christian posters here that they are playing a kind of ‘Takkiya’, I mean they are far from what I would consider peaceful and honest.

 

[planten]

**
jakasaki, you are asking about the name of Muhammad as rasool Allah. Please see the following verses of the Quran…

[3:145] And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.

This verse is telling that Muhammad was nothing but a messenger of Allah and messengers before him had passed away. That proves, Jesus who was a messenger of Allah (as per Quran), he has also passed away, as per Quran…

[33:41] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

The above verse is telling that Muhammad had no survivng male children. Though he was not the biological father of any surviving male, he is the messenger of Allah and the super seal of all prophets.

[48:30] Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him (His companions) are hard against the enemy type disbelievers, tender among themselves. Thou seest them bowing and prostrating themselves in Prayer, seeking grace from Allah and His pleasure. Their mark is upon their faces, being the traces of prostrations. This is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is like unto a seed-produce that sends forth its sprout, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and stands firm on its stem, delighting the sowers — that He may cause the enemy type disbelievers to burn with rage at the sight of them. Allah has promised, unto those of them who believe and do good works, forgiveness and a great reward.

The above verse is telling that Muhammad is a messenger of Allah. That is the exact words which are second part of the Kalimah. It is also describing the status of the companions of the prophet as they re described in the Torah and as in the Injeel (BibleNT).

Please remember that there is no harm in having the name of Muhammad in the Kalimah. The first part of the Kalimah is describing that there is no God except Allah. that is, there is only One God. That is a very important message for the entire world.

The second part is telling that Muhammd is the messenger of Allah (who gave that message). That Muhammad is only a humble servant of Allah and a messenger of Allah. this in no way gives any divinity to Muhammad. It was necessary to add that part in the Kalimah because people make God out of men.

Also any one could ask “Who told you that there is no God but Allah?” We could not name Jesus or any one else. So the reply was taught to us that the message of Unity of God was given by the messenger Muhammad.

Then the people will believe in messengers too and will look for the complete message, that is the Quran.

This part “Muhammad is a messenger of God” is similar to the words in the bible (Mathew?) which say “Preach or baptise in the name of the Father and the son and the holy ghost.”. It was necessary to mention Jesus there and the holy spirit. But it was not to make a god out of them. That was wrong.

**

 

[jakasaki]

**
jakasaki, you are asking about the name of Muhammad as rasool Allah. Please see the following verses**.

~ snip ~

Good morning my dear Planten,

You made my head spin with your reply. Now, I will go back to my orignial inquiry.

Please read it carefully and only address what I’m asking. 3:18 does not have the name mohamad it it. So the question is why when the shahada is said, muslims add the name mohamad in it.

Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

3:18 does not have the name mohamad it it. So the question is why when the shahada is said, muslims add the name mohamad in it.

Not only in holy Quran , in His previous holy books , God repeatedly told humankind that none has the right to be worshipped but He .

I don’t understand how this contradicts with this statement that Muhammed (pbuh) is His slave & messenger ??

A person who rejects any messenger of God can’t call him/herself as a Muslim. Rejecting messenger means rejecting the commands of God Almighty , it’s a kind of arrogance. God sent His final holy book to His Last messenger Muhammed (pbuh).

So , if one needs to be a Muslim , s/he needs to testify that s/he believes Muhammed (pbuh) as a Prophet. Why you are confusing it with that verse where God told us that He is the only one to be worshipped ? Muslims don’t worship Muhammed ( pbuh) or any other human being or angel . They are all His creations.

 

[jakasaki]

Not only in holy Quran , in His previous holy books , God repeatedly told humankind that none has the right to be worshipped but He .

I understand the above

I don’t understand how this contradicts with this statement that Muhammed (pbuh) is His slave & messenger ??

Are you saying that the statement in bold below this does NOT come verse 3:18? Is that what you are saying?

**“I bear witness that there is no deity worthy to be worshiped but Allah and Muhammad is His servant and Messenger.”

Ash hadu alla ilaha illa Allah, wa ash hadu anna Mohammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu **

A person who rejects any messenger of God can’t call him/herself as a Muslim.

Since you specified “any messenger” in your beliefs **who are **these “any messengers”??

Rejecting messenger means rejecting the commands of God Almighty , it’s a kind of arrogance.

OK - so I would like to know who are the “messenger” - besides mohamad.

God sent His **final holy book **to His Last messenger Muhammed (pbuh

Yes, I know and have heard that 1000 times on board and on the entire internet. My problem with that is that God changed his mind when He created the koran because it contradicts the Biblical OT & NT. But that’s another topic.

So , if one needs to be a Muslim , s/he needs to **testify **that s/he **believes ****Muhammed **(pbuh) as a Prophet

Why is that? Why mohamad? What about all of the other “prophets” stated in the koran?

Why you are confusing it with that verse where God told us that He is the only one to be worshipped ?

I am not confused with the verse at all. It is very clear and I understand it.

My question is did the shahada mentioned in this discussion have anything to do with 3:18 because I do not see mohamads name in there.

If it does not, where did the shahada come from with mohamads name it it? And since all muslims claim that the religion stems from Abraham, why not have Abraham since he was the begining of all?

Muslims don’t worship Muhammed ( pbuh) or any other human being or angel .

I believe regadless of what muslims say, that indeed they do have some sort of “worship” for mohamad.

Lets examine the word "**worship **& definition. - noun -

1. **reverent honor **and **homage **paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage:
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her).

–verb (used with object)
6. to render religious **reverence **and **homage **to.

1. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

–verb (used without object)
8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.

1. to attend services of divine worship.
2. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

Are these words that define “worship” not applied towards mohamad by muslims?

I believe they are if you take each word that makes up the definition of worship.

 

[R_not]

As distressing as it is to consider the content of your mission and beliefs I have to say I enjoy reading your posts. They always make an interesting study of surrealist humor even if they are intended to be serious.

As for your crackpot preacher, I’m not sure if you’d consider his “scholarship” regarding Catholicism as reliable.

And instead of addressing the message you like to bash me. I guess if you cracked open the koran, or whatever I posted you would be surprised. As for Dr. Moray - if you don’t like him that is fine. but the usual name calling is just bashing without reading to find out if it is true or not. Prove to me that the islamic texts are correct or not - then you will disprove the post. Otherwise you are just bashing to try to prove your point.

 

[R_not]

R_not to be fair anyone can do a quick Google search and find websites dedicated in pointing out the Bibles OT/NT errors and contradictions.

I don’t put much stock into people posting Youtube links from non-credibal people. Let’s take a look at Dr. Robert Morey. From the Youtube comment: “A Christian Apologist Researcher and Author of the Book The Islamic Invasion” His book his considered anti-Islamic along with most of his work with the purpose of “scaring us into fearing Muslims.” He is also labeled extremely critical of non-Evangelical Christians.

This man was even fired from doing his job << Link >>

I understand you may not appreciate Islam but you seem to really go out of your way to hate it. I am not saying there isn’t some truth behind the statements but when someone takes partial truth, adds misconception and labels it as fact you breed hate.

So what if I hate islam! I have never denied that. I will deny that I hate muslims though. What islam has done to people over the centuries - killing, torturing, enslaving, etc - all in the name of some god is disgusting. And don’t bring up the Crusades and Inquistion because that is so old it gets tiring. Go read about them first before embarressing yourself.

And of course you are not sure if there is some truth behind those statements because you put in more some other stuff rather than finding out if the koran, or hadiths, have those contradictions in them.

No, it is for you to prove your point if you want to discuss the Bible and if it has contradictions. Post them on a different thread if you like - this thread is about islam. If you post them in response to my post - then fine. But don’t tell me to do YOUR homework so YOU can bash me.

So, I post about the contradictions in the Creation in the koran and instead of looking to see if that is, or is not, correct or if the contradictions of history are correct or not, you post about the messenger.

I personally don’t care if that Dr. got told to quit or not. What he said was provable - by islam’s own texts.

you should go and read the articles they have on islam in that website you posted - it shows more of the same sort of things that the muslims are doing in our country - terrorist camps, extremism displayed by muslims, etc. Oh, but that would be too inconvenient for you if you are not even able to read if what I wrote was true or not by reading islam’s own texts.

 

[neploho]

And instead of addressing the message you like to bash me. I guess if you cracked open the koran, or whatever I posted you would be surprised. As for Dr. Moray - if you don’t like him that is fine. but the usual name calling is just bashing without reading to find out if it is true or not. Prove to me that the islamic texts are correct or not - then you will disprove the post. Otherwise you are just bashing to try to prove your point.

I have “cracked open” the Qur’an. By the way, I doubt it matters to you but “Koran” is not representative of the Arabic word. Anyway, I’ve probably read it piecemeal several times over. I’ve also read quite a few Hadith, have some association with their major religious and philosophical figures. Not simply the major Arabian thinkers but also the Sufi and Shia philosophical tradition which continued on after Al Ghazali, particularly the philosophy of illumination and gnosis, and the contemporary major Islamic intellectual traditions. While it is just a side hobby and I am certainly not an expert I have read enough of the primary texts and studied enough scholarly literature to know that you either are simply either personally confused or deliberately not representing Islam and its sacred texts honestly. With regards to my “failure” to address the substance of your point; I’m afraid I can’t locate it. Without a doubt you are well adept at doing a Google search for some superficial polemics, but with regards to a clear, coherent point I’m afraid you are lacking.

 

[neploho]

So what if I hate islam! I have never denied that. I will deny that I hate muslims though. What islam has done to people over the centuries - killing, torturing, enslaving, etc - all in the name of some god is disgusting. And don’t bring up the Crusades and Inquistion because that is so old it gets tiring. Go read about them first before embarressing yourself.

lol, well even excluding the crusades and and inquisition the same could be applied to Christianity. In fact the God of the Old Testament orders or sanctions killing, torturing, and enslaving.

 

[Iwesshome]

So what if I hate islam! I have never denied that. I will deny that I hate muslims though. What islam has done to people over the centuries - killing, torturing, enslaving, etc - all in the name of some god is disgusting. And don’t bring up the Crusades and Inquistion because that is so old it gets tiring. Go read about them first before embarressing yourself.

And of course you are not sure if there is some truth behind those statements because you put in more some other stuff rather than finding out if the koran, or hadiths, have those contradictions in them.

No, it is for you to prove your point if you want to discuss the Bible and if it has contradictions. Post them on a different thread if you like - this thread is about islam. If you post them in response to my post - then fine. But don’t tell me to do YOUR homework so YOU can bash me.

So, I post about the contradictions in the Creation in the koran and instead of looking to see if that is, or is not, correct or if the contradictions of history are correct or not, you post about the messenger.

I personally don’t care if that Dr. got told to quit or not. What he said was provable - by islam’s own texts.

you should go and read the articles they have on islam in that website you posted - it shows more of the same sort of things that the muslims are doing in our country - terrorist camps, extremism displayed by muslims, etc. Oh, but that would be too inconvenient for you if you are not even able to read if what I wrote was true or not by reading islam’s own texts.

Boy, you do live in a bubble of self denial and hate.

 

[neploho]

Boy, you do live in a bubble of self denial and hate.

I find it fascinating. I mean I feel sorry for the individual but it is fascinating to watch.

 

[R_not]

I have “cracked open” the Qur’an. By the way, I doubt it matters to you but “Koran” is not representative of the Arabic word. Anyway, I’ve probably read it piecemeal several times over. I’ve also read quite a few Hadith, have some association with their major religious and philosophical figures. Not simply the major Arabian thinkers but also the Sufi and Shia philosophical tradition which continued on after Al Ghazali, particularly the philosophy of illumination and gnosis, and the contemporary major Islamic intellectual traditions. While it is just a side hobby and I am certainly not an expert I have read enough of the primary texts and studied enough scholarly literature to know that you either are simply either personally confused or deliberately not representing Islam and its sacred texts honestly. With regards to my “failure” to address the substance of your point; I’m afraid I can’t locate it. Without a doubt you are well adept at doing a Google search for some superficial polemics, but with regards to a clear, coherent point I’m afraid you are lacking.

I got nothing except bashing from you and you tell me that I am lacking. From your post you have no intention of reading the texts that I have pointed out because you can’t locate whatever post you are having a problem with also tells me that now you are just bashing just to bash. You have yet to prove your point.

Of course I don’t represent islam according to islamic ‘scholars’. If I were then I would be as mindless a robot as the muslims, and you, are. Or I shouldn’t include you in that since all you have been doing is bashing and showing no substance at all. You are worse than the muslims who are defending their despicable koran.

As for the spelling, are you kidding me? So what how I spell it? It has been spelled, and is spelled, as ‘koran’ for many years this way. As for a google search - I do that for you and those who don’t read books. If you don’t like the source - then fine. Go read the passages yourself - I HAVE PROVIDED THEM FOR YOU TO READ AND YOU STILL ARE UNABLE TO CRACK OPEN A KORAN.