Questions about when people get "saved"

[tgGodsway]

you never defined what believe means. From some of your responses it sure seems like you are defining it as a mere mental assent on our part?

MT, … I have covered this too. Are you tired today? The bible knows nothing about mental assent. That is an attempt by some pop physiologist to water down the biblical meaning of believe.

Here’s what the Greek word believe means … are you ready?/ … it’s exciting… it means: to believe.
I know… that was awesome! …

the opposite of believe is to doubt. So you can either believe, or doubt. These are the only two terms used in scripture dealing with this. You might find the word trust, which is also a good word. to place one’s confidence in … is still another… but basically believe means to believe.

I believe in President Trump. This means I trust in his ability to govern.

 

[tgGodsway]

I’m actually starting to wonder if you understand why John wrote his gospel and who he was writing it to?

Just a curious question. John’s gospel wasn’t written until about 80 or 90 AD, 40 to 50 years after Matthew and Mark wrote. If we read Matthew and Mark, every time Jesus tells us how we are to gain eternal life he never once says we just need to believe.

So if we were to hone in on only Matthew’s Gospel wouldn’t this disprove the need to believe in order to be saved?

Here’s an old outline I used to use years ago.

Matthew emphasized the KINGSHIP of Christ.
Mark emphasized the HUMANITY of Christ
Luke emphasized the SERVANTHOOD of Christ
John emphasized the DIVINITY of Christ.

Matthew, Mark, and Luke were not written for the purpose of evangelism. Only John’s gospel.
These three gospels, though they may speak of eternal life, briefly, do not have any call, recorded, to eternal life. Only John’s gospel has the repetitious call to eternal life. Only John’s gospel shows the absolute freeness of the Gift of eternal life. Only John’s gospel has no call to repentance contained.

 

[MT1926]

Have we not gone over this?.. The SUM of THY word is TRUTH. Ps. 119:160 NASV In other words, when you gather all the added parts of any given subject, and find the common message shared, you, then, have arrived at truth. According to Ps. 119:160

Talk about “lifting a verse.”

Psalm 119 is talking about obeying God’s Law. Verse 160 says The sum of the WORD is truth. Singular. One time not 2 or 3 times. It’s speaking of Laws that honor God and are made for us to follow, not as a punishment but because they show us how to Love God and Love Neighbor. It’s the sum of all of these Laws that are God’s WORD that is truth. This is what Jesus is speaking about in…

Matthew 22:37-40

37 He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

This entire psalm is talking about keeping God’s word. His commandments. This entire psalm is telling us if we Love God and Love neighbor we will have arrived at truth. It’s not telling us to divide the Bible into parts and add up the parts to see what is true? Please point out the verses in Psalm 119 that provide you this context for verse 160. Just read the first 2 verses…

119 Blessed are those whose way is blameless,
who walk in the law of the Lord!
2 Blessed are those who keep his testimonies,
who seek him with their whole heart,

This entire psalm is speaking of things we must do (good works) to find God’s truth. It’s not talking about how we find the Truth in the Bible.

 

[MT1926]

Jesus said it another way, "Upon the mouth of two or three witnesses, … this means two are three other people are saying and concluding on the exact same thing on any given subject, then that word is established. Lifting a verse here and a verse there does not mean you have the truth on anything.

It amazes me that you accuse me of lifting a verse and then you go and do it twice in one post.

This is from Matthew 18. If you would read it in context you would see that it does not say "

this means two are three other people are saying and concluding on the exact same thing on any given subject, then that word is established

First of all, Jesus is speaking to his disciples here. He is not speaking to the public. He is not telling you and me to find 3 like minded individuals and establish His word. He is speaking to the leaders of His Church in the matter of Church discipline. He isn’t speaking about how we establish Church doctrine here.

Let’s read the entire passage in context.

Jesus outlines a three step procedure for the leaders of His Church to deal with discipline.

1. Privately confront the sinner

Matthew 18:15 “If another member of the church[d] sins against you,[e] go and point out the fault when the two of you are alone. If the member listens to you, you have regained that one.[f]

1. If that doesn’t work, address the sinner before a circle of witnesses.

Matthew 18:16 But if you are not listened to, take one or two others along with you, so that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

1. Notice here Jesus let’s us all know this still might not work. This statement alone let’s us know that this position here in this verse, which you take, still isn’t an authoritative position. So now that Jesus let’s his disciples know that even though you take 3 disciples people still might not listen to you, He gives us the final step… TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH.

Matthew 18:17 If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

You can’t skip verse 17 because this is who the rest of the verses are referring to. It’s the Church that has Christ’s authority to to discipline us. It’s not you and all the people that agree with you that have the authority to discipline me. No it only works that way if you lift out verse 16 and ignore verse 17.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples, not us, when He says…

Matthew 18:18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.”

continued…

 

[MT1926]

Here is the Biblical application of Matthew 18

We have the perfect example of this in Acts 15

Acts 15 Then certain individuals came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

These are the sinners spoken of in Matthew 18:15

2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them,

This is step one

Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to discuss this question with the apostles and the elders. 3 So they were sent on their way by the church,

Here’s step 2 spoken of in verse 16. The verse you are talking about.

Let’s see if these 2 or 3 have as much authority as you claim they have.

5 But some believers who belonged to the sect of the Pharisees stood up and said, “It is necessary for them to be circumcised and ordered to keep the law of Moses.”

NOPE. It sure doesn’t seem like your interpretation is working out to well for St. Paul. Let’s see what Paul tells us to do in situations like these.

2 Then the apostles and the elders, with the consent of the whole church, decided to choose men from among their members[f] and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas.

Looks like St. Paul took Jesus’ advise and didn’t stop at step 2. He took it ti the Church.

Sorry but neither one of those verses claim to tell us how to interpret Scripture or how many times God needs to repeat Himself for us to be bound by his command.

Be honest with me. You come across like the Catholic Church taught you so very little so you went out on your own and figured it out all by yourself. Did you really come up with the interpretation of these verses on your own? or are you just repeating what you were taught? Because it doesn’t really look like you put much thought into these verses and I cannot see why anyone could come to that conclusion without purposefully skipping verse 17.

 

[MT1926]

MT, … I have covered this too. Are you tired today? The bible knows nothing about mental assent. That is an attempt by some pop physiologist to water down the biblical meaning of believe.

Here’s what the Greek word believe means … are you ready?/ … it’s exciting… it means: to believe.

I know… that was awesome! …

the opposite of believe is to doubt. So you can either believe, or doubt. These are the only two terms used in scripture dealing with this. You might find the word trust, which is also a good word. to place one’s confidence in … is still another… but basically believe means to believe.

I believe in President Trump. This means I trust in his ability to govern.

OK so you define belief as mere mental assent. So basically you are saying it doesn’t really matter what God thinks or says or expects from us, as long as you tell yourself that you are saved God has no choice but to save you.

As long as you believe Jesus is the Son of God you can live your life the way you like and do what you please and you will be saved. You basically said you don’t even need to Love God or Love neighbor. You are basically saying St. Paul got it wrong. As long as you believe we can do what we want.

1 Corinthians 6:8-11

8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—and believers[a] at that.

9 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

St. Paul’s talking to believers here. Says it right there in the text. He’s saying do not be deceived that your belief will get you to heaven if you do these things.

These are true believers here that St. Paul is telling, IT AIN’T OVER TIL IT’S OVER. He’s saying don’t let your belief deceive you, you start doing these things again and you will lose your salvation.

If you want to minimize your belief to mere trust, that is your option. But the way I see it God deserves all of me, for me belief means a whole lot more.

 

[Gorgias]

The SUM of THY word is TRUTH. Ps. 119:160 NASV In other words, when you gather all the added parts of any given subject, and find the common message shared, you, then, have arrived at truth. According to Ps. 119:160

You mean “Your every word is enduring; all your righteous judgments are forever”… right? So, your translation leads to you a particular interpretation which, if someone translates differently, they do not share.

Jesus said it another way, "Upon the mouth of two or three witnesses

This is a tenet of Jewish legal theory. It doesn’t address Scriptural interpretation.

You’re proof-texting, @tgGodsway…

Here’s what the Greek word believe means … are you ready?/ … it’s exciting… it means: to believe.

Actually, you would do well to study the Greek. The Greek word we translate as ‘believe’ is “πιστεύω”, and its definition is:

4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, “faith,” derived from 3982 /peíthō, “persuade, be persuaded”) – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō (“believe”) is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God’s inbirthing of faith.

the opposite of believe is to doubt. … These are the only two terms used in scripture dealing with this.

Actually, they aren’t. The opposite is ‘ἄπιστος’ (“disbelief”). We find it in Acts 20:27 (“do not disbelieve, but believe”).

 

[tgGodsway]

OK so you define belief as mere mental assent

Okay… I only have a few moments here but hopefully will get back tonight with something more thorough.

I’m saying mental assent is someone’s invention. There is no such thing recognized in the bible. You either believe Jesus is the Christ, or you do not. It is that simple.

 

[tgGodsway]

So basically you are saying it doesn’t really matter what God thinks or says or expects from us, as long as you tell yourself that you are saved God has no choice but to save you.

No, again. It isn’t about as long as you tell yourself that you are saved. It is all about whether or not you believe Jesus is the Christ. Your belief in His person is summed up in John’s gospel that you have eternal life.

You have come to the understanding that you cannot save yourself because you are utterly sinful and incapable of saving yourself. Only through the free Gift of eternal life can you be saved,

The 1st. Cor. 6:8-11 passage you used is not talking about how someone becomes saved, or remains saved.

I have to go but hopefully will explain better later tonight or tomorrow.

Blessings.

 

[MT1926]

That’s OK lets not waste your time explaining belief.

I would rather you responded to my comments on your interpretation of Psalm 119 and Matthew 18. Because you are using these 2 verses, out of context, to prove your interpretation of Belief alone is the only truth.

Thanks

 

[dann]

Wow I understand your contributions and commentary of Matthew 18

And 1 cor. 6:8-11

Thanks for sharing

 

[tgGodsway]

At work now and on my cell phone. … I have taken nothing out of context and Psalms 119:160 is correct. And “believe” means believe. But I will get back.

 

[Gorgias]

At work now and on my cell phone. … I have taken nothing out of context and Psalms 119:160 is correct. And “believe” means believe. But I will get back.

I’ll be interested to see your responses, too. Additionally, given your take on the definition of ‘belief’, I’d love to see your reaction to my post in which I cited the definition from Strong’s Greek dictionary, especially given the assertion that it has to do with persuasion.

 

[tgGodsway]

MT… Christmas shopping with my wife. Tired. I will try to chime in tomorrow or Thursday.

 

[tgGodsway]

Okay… I’ve got a few moments here MT… You accuse me of using Ps. 119:160 out of context. I have not. I’m sure you know the Psalmist speaks in couplets, not a narrative style. There is nothing taken out of context, seeing it is reduced to one verse.

The SUM of thy word is the Hebrew word roshe’ which literally means the head of Thy Word or the headship of Thy word. Translators translate it into the word SUM in certain places like Ps. 139:17. A counter-part word is the word entirety of Thy word is truth. The amplified bible does the best job describing it.

“The sum of Your word is truth (the total of the full meaning of all your individual precepts) and every one of your righteous decrees endures forever.” AMP.

This is not a fix-all pill but simply a bible principle that can be used in any context. It is not my personal and private view but held by many theologians and hermeneutics minded teachers and scholars around the world.

The Matthew 18 argument where you have the famous “upon the mouth of two or three witnesses” statement did not begin in Matthew 18 but in the book of Deuteronomy. The principle applies when one is trying to get to the truth of a matter, whether it be about a brother at odds with a brother, or whatever situation. A witness to support the view or come to establish a truth is powerful and persuasive. Why do you have such a hang up on this principle?

If the pope says Mary was born sinless, … Really what do those around her have to say about it? What do the Apostles have to say? Can I get a witness? Who is it in the Divine record who agrees with the pope on this? … Oh… no one does? Too bad! We are the infallible church! Accept it. This is why there was reform.

And Gorgias can spin the word belief all day long, it still means to believe or to trust. I’m not impressed with his insinuation that belief is something more than that.

 

[MT1926]

Okay… I’ve got a few moments here MT… You accuse me of using Ps. 119:160 out of context. I have not. I’m sure you know the Psalmist speaks in couplets, not a narrative style. There is nothing taken out of context, seeing it is reduced to one verse.

The SUM of thy word is the Hebrew word roshe’ which literally means the head of Thy Word or the headship of Thy word. Translators translate it into the word SUM in certain places like Ps. 139:17. A counter-part word is the word entirety of Thy word is truth. The amplified bible does the best job describing it.

“The sum of Your word is truth (the total of the full meaning of all your individual precepts) and every one of your righteous decrees endures forever.” AMP.

This is not a fix-all pill but simply a bible principle that can be used in any context. It is not my personal and private view but held by many theologians and hermeneutics minded teachers and scholars around the world.

OK. Once again. You are not giving an explanation of how you get this principle. Basically what you are doing is you give your opinion. You start by saying…

Have we not gone over this?.. The SUM of THY word is TRUTH. Ps. 119:160 NASV

Yes I agree that is what Psalm 119 says. Yes I agree this is a true statement. The sum of they word is truth.

But then you follow it by saying…

In other words, when you gather all the added parts of any given subject, and find the common message shared, you, then, have arrived at truth. According to Ps. 119:160

This is your opinion. Where does Psalm 119 say find verses in scripture that mean the same thing and if you find 2 or 3 of them saying the same thing then you found truth.

Let’s take a closer look at the verse and see why your opinion doesn’t make sense.

The sum of thy WORD is truth. Ps. 119:160 NASV

Word is singular here. For your belief that this is saying you have to find something 2 or 3 times in the Bible before it is true, I would argue this would have to say words, not word.

Sum can mean the addition of 2 or 3 WORDS. However, the verse uses the singular “WORD”.

If we look at a thesaurus we find that a synonym for the word SUM is ALL.

Making the verse…

ALL of thy WORD is truth. Which to me would mean everything you say in the Bible is true, regardless of whether you say it once, twice or three times.

Guess what, I just found the Hebrew Interlinear OT

Look what it says the translation is…

rōš- 160
רֹאשׁ־ 160

[from] the beginning 160

də·ḇā·rə·ḵā
דְּבָרְךָ֥
Your word

’ĕ·meṯ;
אֱמֶ֑ת
[is] true

ū·lə·‘ō·w·lām,
וּ֝לְעוֹלָ֗ם
[endures] forever

kāl-
כָּל־
every one

miš·paṭ
מִשְׁפַּ֥ט
of Your judgments

ṣiḏ·qe·ḵā.
צִדְקֶֽךָ׃
righteous

Don’t know where you got that word roshe’ from but it’s not in the Hebrew on Bible Hub or Scripture4all which says…
Thy word [is] true
[from] the beginning: and
every one of thy righteous
judgments [endureth] for
ever.

 

[MT1926]

Why do you have such a hang up on this principle?

I’m having such a hang up because you are taking Matthew 18 out of context to try to prove your principle and now you are applying Deuteronomy 19:15, also out of context I might add, to try to prove your interpretation of Matthew 18 is correct.

Let’s take a look at more than just verse 15…

Deuteronomy 19:15-17
15 A single witness shall not suffice to convict a person of any crime or wrongdoing in connection with any offense that may be committed. Only on the evidence of two or three witnesses shall a charge be sustained. 16 If a malicious witness comes forward to accuse someone of wrongdoing, 17 then both parties to the dispute shall appear before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days, 18 and the judges shall make a thorough inquiry.

This does not says anything about 2 or 3 witnesses being able to “establish the truth”. It’s saying unless you bring 2 or 3 witnesses don’t even think about speaking. If we keep reading to verse 17 it tells us the exact same thing Jesus reaffirms in Matthew 18. The witnesses have ZERO authority to establish truth. They must appear before the Lord, before the priests and the judges. OR as Jesus says it…tell it to the church.

Verse 18 tells us who has the real authority to decide what is truth…the judges (Deuteronomy) and the Church (Matthew 18)

You are trying to give yourself, or your millions, authority over scripture when you have none.

 

[MT1926]

If the pope says Mary was born sinless, … Really what do those around her have to say about it? What do the Apostles have to say? Can I get a witness? Who is it in the Divine record who agrees with the pope on this? … Oh… no one does? Too bad! We are the infallible church! Accept it. This is why there was reform.

You do realize how much of a hypocrite (a person who acts contradictory to his own rules or principles) this statement makes you look like don’t you?

You said to me this is the rule you apply when Catholics tell you what they believe…

You quote people in history but most of them are too far removed to bring any historical or spiritual accuracy to the table. The further out you go, the less people will know or understand what the Apostolic circle was all about. But of course, they are the experts.

Yet when you speak you totally go against this rule. You keep giving your opinions then you claim they are not yours they are held by millions of the worlds greatest theologians.

Well you won’t accept Catholic teaching because it is 50, 100, or 200 years after the death of the last Apostle. So when were these so called experts of your born?

I’m sure we can go back and forth disagreeing on scripture forever . And I am willing to do so, that’s how much I love discussing the Bible. Even when we are in disagreement I still win, because I got to discuss our Lord. All I ask is you think and pray about what I have said. Are you judging what I say by the same standards of what you say? Because statements like the one above sure make it seem like you are automatically dismissing what I say because someone convinced you everything Catholics say is wrong, no matter what?

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

This is your opinion. Where does Psalm 119 say find verses in scripture that mean the same thing and if you find 2 or 3 of them saying the same thing then you found truth.

What are we trying to do here? We are trying to find the “truth” on a given matter. The principle that is found of Ps. 119 tells us that you have not arrived at a truth by simply using one voice. It was a deduction. Collect all of the voices on that one subject, without contradiction. If you can do that, you have arrived at a divine truth.
By the way, you can use this same principle with any collection of writings. An investigator seeking the truth of a matter will look for patterns found in people’s testimonies. He will look for ways to connect the dots of what happened in a crime scene for instance.

Just because I can find a verse in the bible that says, “baptism saves” doesn’t settle the matter. Is that water baptism? Is that Spirit baptism? Is that a baptism with fire? Is that a baptism unto repentance? All of these baptisms are found in scripture. Which one did you have in mind, and how so?

I can just use my own personal bias and read into the passage what think it means or what I want it to mean, or what my Church says it means.
But none of this means I have found the truth on it (and yes that is my opinion and I stand by it!) without seeing this subject in a larger context and by using other voices or witnesses to help support the idea.

MT… if you do not believe this principle. Okay… I can’t make you. I believe it,… and practice it. but so what! …

If you are looking for an encyclopedia of “how to’s” from scripture, you will have a difficult time.
The science of interpretation was not born yesterday, the Church has had over 2000 years to practice finding an established word. and not everyone is on board to use these kind of principles. Some people simply like to quote a verse and say, Thus saith the Lord! I am not one of them.

God’s WORD is true. But it’s true whether or not we know it, … or think we know it… we all read our own bias into each verse. We must learn how to find the author’s intent. It is not as simple as you think it is MT. as demonstrated by your quote of how baptism saves…
By the way… is that saves, eternally?.. or saves temporally and literally? What did the author intend to mean?

We are reading other people’s mail when we read the N.T. We are trying to get to the author’s intent and his understanding. Hopefully by on-going fellowship in the Holy Spirit, we can arrive.

But it is a mistake to believe that it is as simple as quoting a verse and there it is, it’s the truth.
My goodness… we cannot even agree on what the word brother really means. You’re side insist that it doesn’t mean what it actually says, but through a custom, it means something other.

The skill of interpretation helps us gather the totality of what God has said on any given subject, so that we can come to a better understanding.

But hey… we can move on if you’re not on board. It is only a bump in the road for me…

 

[hope]

I haven’t seen this scripture yet. Paul is asked in acts how are the people to be saved and he answers repent AND be baptized. Baptism is mentioned at least 71 times. It is commanded by Jesus and yet there are those who discount that it is necessary. They look for an alternate interpretation, I believe because they do not wish to acknowledge that the Catholic Church has authority so they ignore truth to follow their own way.