Questions about when people get "saved"

[MT1926]

v22 "you will be hated by ALL… FOR my name’s sake… But he who endures, (the above mentioned persecution) to the end (the end of that persecution) will be saved=delivered from it.

I understand this makes sense to you but it does not to me. Maybe answering this question will help.

I’m not arguing the end times here. As far as I’m concerned it doesn’t change the message of the statement.

I don’t totally agree with the way you word this verse but maybe you can answer me, I’m being serious here, not sarcastic…

how exactly are the ones who endure tot he end of the persecution saved from said persecution. You say they are delivered from it. That’s fine but my question is where are the ones who endure to the end delivered to?

When did all of this happen in the life of Jesus’ original disciples? It didn’t, and neither have we seen all of Israel evangelized before the coming of the Son of Man.

I’m not sure of your point here? Are you saying that even though Jesus was speaking directly to the Apostles, the “HE” in verse 13 is actually a future “HE” and not really them or any Christian who has lived to this very day?

This should tell any serious student of scripture that the content of Mt. 24 which shares this one popular verse we’ve been debating, is a more developed explanation.

Like I said the time frame of the enduring makes no difference as far as I’m concerned, because I believe Jesus is speaking to all Christians here.

You trying to make the claim that saved here doesn’t mean saved to eternal life and only means saved from a persecution you already endured makes no sense. Sorry I don’t see it.

The verse goes… he who endures to the end (of the persecution)…We can reword this to say he who endures 100% of the persecution. Why can we say this? Because the verse goes on to say WILL BE saved.

WILL BE is future tense. That would mean that He wasn’t saved until after 100% of the persecution ended.

How do you deliver someone from a persecution if it already ended?

Are you seeing my point at all?

God Bless

 

[ltwin]

From Luther’s Writings

The Babylonian Captivity of the Church

A prelude 1520

MT1926:

On the Sacrament of Baptism

3.8 See, how rich therefore is a Christian, the one who is baptised! Even if he wants to, he cannot lose his salvation, however much he sin, unless he will not believe. For no sin can condemn him save unbelief alone. All other sins – so long as the faith in God’s promise made in baptism returns or remains –all other sins, I say, are immediately blotted out through that same faith…

For Luther, faith is trust in the promises of God, and it is faith that unites the believer to Christ. Luther used the following analogy:

Everything depends upon faith. The person who does not have faith is like someone who has to cross the sea, but is so frightened that he does not trust the ship. And so he stays where he is, and is never saved, because he will not get on board and cross over.

Therefore, if one were to lose faith they would cease to be united to Christ. Ultimately, sin and rebellion stem from unbelief, which is why faith is so important for Luther. When we trust in God, we obey him.

 

[MT1926]

It sound like Luther was struggling here. His view, at least on

this one quote, sound a lot like an Arminian view. Perhaps in Luther’s quest for freedom over sin’s power, he failed to understand the faithfulness of God even to those who have lost there faith.

Not sure why you would think he is struggling here. He published this writing within three years of the 95 thesis which would probably mean he started writing it within the first year or two.

“If we endure, we will also reign with him;

If we deny him, he also will deny us;

If we are FAITHLESS=G= UNBELIEVING, He (Christ) REMAINS FAITHFUL.” 2nd. Tim. 2:11-13.

Christ remains faithful to the faithless (but justified sinner,.) This is a radical but yet biblical concept only few accept. It shows all the more, how our God is merciful and generous to us sinners. He receives all of the glory in the salvation work.

You didn’t finish the verse. It doesn’t say Christ remains faithful to the faithless. Read the end it says “for he cannot deny himself.” It says Christ will remain faithful to himself here, not the faithless.

It’s outright saying don’t fool yourself if you are faithless you won’t get a free pass because Christ is faithful to himself (his perfect justice).

Think about verse 12 when you read verse 13.

“If we endure, we will also reign with him;

Hey there’s that word endure again, maybe we can discuss what this enduring is referring to next. But that is not the point of this discussion.

The word if denotes a conditional clause. Which would also mean…

“If we DO NOT endure, we WILL NOT also reign with him;

Look at the rest of the verse…

If we deny him, he also will deny us;

How is this not contradicting your interpretation of verse 13. Denying Jesus would be the same as being faithless or unbelieving.

How can He deny us for our unbelief in verse 12 and still be faithful to us for our unbelief in verse 13?

 

[MT1926]

However, we don’t become all-that-and-a-bag-of-chips instantaneously.

Darn I really like chips.

We have to become holy and sanctified as we battle sin and gain the victory through the power of Christ whose Spirit now lives within us and is giving life to our mortal bodies. This is something that comes with spiritual maturity. In the faith, there are those who are like little children, those like young men and those like fathers. As we grow and mature in our Christian walk, we become ever more holy as we imitate Christ more and more.

I like what you say here.

I’m guessing I just have a hang up on the definition of the word declared. If God declares us righteous because we are actually made righteous, (by the blood of Christ), I’m good.

However, if God declares us righteous by ignoring our faults and looking at Jesus instead than that is like your parents going out and buying you a first place trophy even though you never even finished the race. That is unjust in my book.

 

[tgGodsway]

I thought some held the position that God declares you righteous based on Jesus righteousness regardless of whether or not you were actually made righteous?

MT. Itwin didn’t challenge your question. But I do here.

God declares you righteous based on Jesus righteousness, agreed. Meaning that a transfer took place. Jesus became the scape-goat on the cross, where (symbolically) the high priest laid his hands on HIM to transfer the sins of the people onto the goat and then allowed the goat to go into the wilderness.

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one (man) shall many be made righteous.” Ro.5:19

From God’s point of view, you were made righteous based on the works of Christ alone. Therefore when you “believe” in Christ as savior, you then receive His gift of righteousness.
God “declares” His righteousness over you for the remission of sins. (Ro. 3:25) He becomes the justifier to those who believe through the law of faith v27.

Paul goes on to say, “but to him who does not work (in deed) but believes on HIM who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Ro. 4:5.

So what happens if this “justified one” does not go on to live out his life in righteous acts? … what does it prove? Does it mean that Christ gift of righteousness is taken away? NO.

It proves that this person either never allowed Christ to become LORD over his life, (through deliberate acts of sanctification) he concealed his true identity by sinful living, or, he never had the opportunity to learn of Christ and his ways in the first place.

Such is the case as one who lives in a place where it is against the law to have a bible or to practice Christianity. I’m sure there is a lot of reasons why someone would deny the influence of Christ over his life after receiving HIM as savior. But as the bible says, “The Lord knows those who are his” in a house filled with both honor and dishonor.

 

[tgGodsway]

That’s fine but my question is where are the ones who endure to the end delivered to?

As I’ve already mentioned, MT. 10 is not fully developed to answer it’s own statement. When Jesus said, "he who endures to the end shall be saved, (from MT. 10) He doesn’t answer your specific question in this chapter.

The good news is, that Matthew knew what Matthew was talking about when he brought it back up just a few chapters later, quoting the very same verse again. But in that context, more information was given, along with Mark’s testimony.

Obviously the content of MT. 24 goes into great detail of end time events correlating with the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation. What many bible scholars do not like to admit is that there is a “rapture” scene found in MT. 24. This event, chronologically is well past the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. If you are a pre-trib advocate, you will not like what you find here.

Jesus said, "And HE shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together HIS elect from the four winds, from one end of the heaven to the other. 24:31.

He goes on in narrative to say, “Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. v41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” 24:40,41.

He who endures the persecution of the anti-Christ shall be saved=from him.

Paul uses words like “caught up” to describe what has come to be called the rapture. If you study Revelation chapter 7, in the context you will find a “great multitude” which no one could number, suddenly standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes…" Revelation 7:9.

In the chronology of the text, this rapture happens sometime past the half-way point of the 7 year tribulation but before the “wrath of God” is poured out on the wicked.
Most of the Church, will have fallen away and only the bond servants of Christ remain to experience this “endurance.”

 

[ltwin]

he concealed his true identity by sinful living

He concealed his true identity? You mean that he is truly justified by faith but he lives like he is not? What exactly do you mean by this because it sounds like you believe that if you live a life of sin after conversion you will continue to be saved.

If this is what you believe, how do you explain James 2:17-19:

17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

If someone claims to be justified by faith, but this faith produces no corresponding fruit then that faith is a dead faith. It is a lifeless faith.

When someone shows you who they are by their actions, believe them. A person who claims to be a born again Christian justified by faith but who lives in unrepentant sin is not concealing who he is. He is revealing who he is–someone who does not have the “obedience that comes from faith” (Romans 1:5).

If someone professes faith in Christ and lives like they are united to Christ by faith, that person is showing you who they are–someone obeying Christ out of love and gratitude.

 

[tgGodsway]

It says Christ will remain faithful to himself here, not the faithless.

yeah, that’s nonsensical. It serves Him no good purpose to be faithful to himself, though I’m sure He is. God is not the one found in jeopardy if we are faithlessness.

The fact that Paul mentions three times "IF WE… in a contrast between US and GOD, only shows this powerful creed to be all the more compelling.

If we died … with HIM
If we endure We shall …
If we are faithless, HE REMAINS FAITHFUL.

Nowhere in God’s word do we find the concept of God being faithful to Himself. To imply it here is without warrant.

But we do find the concept that WE are objects of His faithfulness. This idea is repeated over and over again throughout scripture.
Paul said we are ONE SPIRIT with the Lord. Because the Spirit of God has been deposited in us and that seal will not be broken, therefore God will not deny Himself by becoming unfaithful to that seal. This is what makes eternal life a gift without cost to us.

 

[tgGodsway]

He concealed his true identity? You mean that he is truly justified by faith but he lives like he is not? What exactly do you mean by this because it sounds like you believe that if you live a life of sin after conversion you will continue to be saved.

Itwin, every time you or I sin, are we doing so in spiritual blindness to who we really are? We were not created in Christ Jesus to sin, yet we do sin. … When we sin, we conceal our true identity and act out the identity of satan.

We were created NEW on the inside, in seed form. Until or unless it is cultivated and worked out, in terms of spiritual maturity, our true nature “in Christ” will be concealed. Work out, what God has worked in …
If you think that by simply accepting Jesus Christ as savior, the power of sin is removed, you are kidding yourself. John said that if “we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1s.John 1:10. John was a realist for sure. John goes on to say, “by this we know that we KNOW Him, if we keep His commandments.” v4 He who says, ‘I know HIM’ and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.” John was talking about Christians in the context.

Faith without works is DEAD. Agreed. A dead faith cannot produce good works God will count for anything, but what is your point here.

 

[tgGodsway]

If someone claims to be justified by faith, but this faith produces no corresponding fruit then that faith is a dead faith. It is a lifeless faith.

again I must point you to 1st. John 4:1 and 2. Test the spirits to see if they are of God. Every spirit who confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh IS OF GOD. There is the kind of “fruit” you should look for. You shall know them by their fruit… the fruit of their lips. Their confession of faith.

Can the unsaved natural man make such a confession that Jesus Christ is God come in flesh. 4:2,3 says NO. see also 1st. John 5;1

 

[ltwin]

Faith without works is DEAD. Agreed. A dead faith cannot produce good works God will count for anything, but what is your point here.

I asked, “You mean that he is truly justified by faith but he lives like he is not? What exactly do you mean by this because it sounds like you believe that if you live a life of sin after conversion you will continue to be saved.” So, my point is do you believe we can continue to live a life of sin and still be saved?

 

[tgGodsway]

When someone shows you who they are by their actions, believe them. A person who claims to be a born again Christian justified by faith but who lives in unrepentant sin is not concealing who he is. He is revealing who he is–someone who does not have the “obedience that comes from faith” (Romans 1:5).

If this is the case then the Pharisees, who all had outward works for everyone to see, would have accepted their Messiah. They had this kind of fruit, outwardly, but inwardly, they were dead to Christ.

Outward works prove nothing! Beware of false prophets who come to you in SHEEP’S CLOTHING, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Is not the sheep’s clothing symbolic of outward signs, or outward works, they look like a sheep, they smell like a sheep, they sound like a sheep,… everything external says SHEEP. but inwardly they are not sheep at all. …

You shall know them by their fruit. What kind of fruit did Matthew have in mind?

 

[tgGodsway]

This is a description of purgatory, or the purging

Accept that Paul didn’t see it as a purging, he saw it as a construction project. Paul laid the foundation, and it is up to everyone else as to how they will build upon that foundation.
The final DAY will reveal everything and everyone who built. He then uses 6 kind of elements, figuratively, to describe what will be found on that day. Some will have built on the foundation and it will be equivalent to GOLD… others SILVER… yet others who built selfishly, will be equivalent to STRAW, or HEY. The fire of testing will show the quality of work. Of course Paul isn’t talking about hell fire or any other kind of fire here. Why not? Because he doesn’t say so. It’s a metaphor.

Where in the world did you get purgatory out of all of this?

 

[tgGodsway]

You must qualify that. I’m not trying to resist answering, but I have a point here. How much sin becomes quote, “a life of sin?” and on what biblical bases?

 

[Agathon]

Yes, the blood must be on our doorposts. But we still have to enter the promised land. Although the Israelites put the blood on their doorposts, none of them except Joshua and Caleb entered.

 

[tgGodsway]

However, if God declares us righteous by ignoring our faults and looking at Jesus instead than that is like your parents going out and buying you a first place trophy even though you never even finished the race. That is unjust in my book.

What race?.. there is no race to receive eternal life.

 

[hope]

2 Timothy 4:7

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

 

[hope]

Purgatory

This is a very well thought out and research on purgatory both Catholic view and Jew. I don’t know why you say this is what Paul didn’t see as I believe that is exactly what he saw.

 

[tgGodsway]

Hope, please point to the exact verse in Paul’s writings to the Corinthian Church where the concept of purging is seen.

 

[tgGodsway]

What is the purpose of this race and why?