Questions for Muslims posting here

[Angelos]

**Let us not blame the bible for any lack of knowledge in it. For the purpose of satisfaction of the orignal poster , The Scientist, would it be not a surprise that:

1. the Quran described that all living bodies were created from water? That is why the scientists are looking for water first on moon and other planets.
2. That all things were created in pairs. Nowadays the science says that there are bodies and anti bodies too.
3. Up till very late the world believed that the earth was still and other bodies went around it. Quran told against it.
4. When there was some break through, it was believed that Sun was stationary and all other bodies went around the Sun. In that I will stress on the Sun being stationary. But the Quran did not agree to it. It informed about the temporary places of the Sun’s travails.
5. The Quran also described the celestial bodies as being global.

Quran is not a book of Science. It is a spiritual book. That is more important matter. It has history too. But it is not a book of history. But that may also be scientific, many historical truths are in it.

It is not necessary that the findings of the Quran be subjected to the Nature magazine etc. The Quran is describing the nature. It is describing a completely natural religion. There is nature in Quran and nothing is unnatural in it. Please remember that the Quran is the word of God and the Universe is the work of God. There is no difference in the word of God and work of God.

The word of God is describing the work of God. There cannot be any difference. There are things which are known to mankind ( seen, Haazir). There are other things unknown to mankind (Unseen, Ghaib). Due to investigations by the scientists, every day, the unknown is being resolved into the known. The Ghaib is turning into Haazir. The unseen (unknown) is being discovered and turning into seen (known) things.

One friend (The American) has given a very long list of the scientific matters in the Quran. It has impressed me very much. I hope that should be a good guide for the questioner and he/she being a scientist, may go ahead with investigation into the various scientific news given in the Quran. That news should be enough to be counted as a miracle. Otherwise, it is not possible to put everything on the table for scientific experiment.

I personally feel that after knowing what Maurice Bucaille wrote in his book “The Bible, The Quran and Science” there was no need to start this thread. The word “Science” is there in the title of the book. What could be better?. Is it necessry that articles should appear in the Nature magazines?. Is a book not better than the periodicals? Please continue or tell what was really required. Give some example of the problem. Thanks.**

Take it easy, dear planten.

I shall soon reveal all the lies concerning the miraculous nature of your scripture and debunk all the stupid suppositions of that specific doctor, who is an expert on distorting the Koran and fabricating miracles that even Mohammad had never dreamed of performing. LOL

 

[Angelos]

**There is a news about the body of Pharoah being preserved or saved to be seen by the future generations. That was the Pharoah, king of Egypt who opposed Moses a.s. and did not allow the exodus of the Jews from Egypt. The Quran says about that pharoah when he was drowning:

But this day (and forever), we shall save thee in thy body so that thou may be a sign for those who come after thee. But most people are heedless of our signs." (Al-Quran 10:92)**

First, I can see nothing in this single verse that even implies the supposed preservation of the Pharaoh’s corpse.

Second, the verse is so vague and weird that it is impossible to figure out IN WHAT WAY was the Pharaoh himself made a sign for the mankind? Did God supposedly put a sign on the Pharaoh so as to distinguish him from all the other Pharaohs of Egyptian history???

**
That body, nobody knew about it. It was discovered only in the late 19th century A.D, buried underground in a pyramid. The pyramid was fully buried in the sand. Could it not be some kind of a miracle of the Quran, please.**

This is by no means a miracle. LOL

Where is your secular reference to prove that the scientists and archeologists confirmed the identity of the corpse as the Pharaoh of the Exodus? There were so many Pharaohs buried undergroud in a pyramid, so how could the scientists assure that this was the Pharaoh mentioned in the Koran?

 

[cathopologist]

You are misreading the quoted post. The poster said that no SCIENTIFIC “miracles” MUST be found to authenticate the religion. We don’t believe as some fundamentalists do that the Bible is a Holy book AND a science manual. Do you believe as the fundamentalists do about your Quran? Is it a science manual? If so, then why are there sooooo very many scientific errors in it (the sun setting in a murky spring, sperm produced between the loins and the ribs, etc)?

And if you DON’T believe that the Quran needs to be scientifically accurate, then you should have no problem with the post you quoted. All it is saying that if you have faith, it doesn’t need to be substantiated by scientific agreement, since many of the claims of religion lie outside of scientific boundaries. “Miracles”, by their nature, are supernatural, and hence extra-scientific.

Thank you dzheremi for making that clearer to Americanrevert. He seems to have double-standards and uses the old word-play scenario made obvious when he said:

"The main thing is, we do not need science to prove the word of God or that God exists."

But goes on to ridicule scientists who doubt the authenticity of Quranic claims.***

---

Holy Scripture is best left as it is and must be respected, not subject it to mockery. If he chooses to make a fool out of himself and his scripture, its his choice i suppose.

 

[kristin2007]

LOL

The Muslims here really really REALLY do not get this thing about peer review.

Either the koran has pre-knowledge of scientific discoveries; or it does not.

While it is possible to assess individual claims – and those I’ve assessed have always turned out to be baloney – it is not possible for any one person to assess the claim as a whole. After all, Muslims make so many claims of this nature. There seems to be a new one every day.

Now the existence of pre-knowledge of scientific discoveries in a 14 century old document would be a matter of monumental importance to the whole of humanity. Muslim scholars owe it to the world to submit these claims to proper scientific scrutiny via the peer review process.

In fact I shall put it more strongly.

If I fail to “revert” to Islam because Muslim scholars are too inward looking, too lazy, too cowardly to submit these amazing claims to peer review scrutiny then it is not me, but those lazy, cowardly “scholars,” who will end up in hell.

And Muslim hell is no joke. See:

shariahprogram.ca/articles/hell-devil-description.shtml

So what about it Muslim “scholars?”

Save yourselves from hell.

Submit a paper to Nature. If your claims have as much merit as you appear to think the paper will sail through the peer review process.

Or are you all what we used to call “fraidy cats” when I was a little girl.

 

[cathopologist]

Submit a paper to Nature. If your claims have as much merit as you appear to think the paper will sail through the peer review process.

Or are you all what we used to call “fraidy cats” when I was a little girl.

I doubt they will. They have Karen Armstrong though.

 

[planten]

First, I can see nothing in this single verse that even implies the supposed preservation of the Pharaoh’s corpse.

Second, the verse is so vague and weird that it is impossible to figure out IN WHAT WAY was the Pharaoh himself made a sign for the mankind? Did God supposedly put a sign on the Pharaoh so as to distinguish him from all the other Pharaohs of Egyptian history???

The sign is the preservation of the body of that Pharoah (that is his body is mummified). But first I should tell you that you have lost all self control after seeing the high grade truth of the Quran. So you have resolved to dispute it and to deny it. That is a bad idea to begin with. Do you see that you have bad intentions?

This is by no means a miracle. LOL

Where is your secular reference to prove that the scientists and archeologists confirmed the identity of the corpse as the Pharaoh of the Exodus? There were so many Pharaohs buried undergroud in a pyramid, so how could the scientists assure that this was the Pharaoh mentioned in the Koran?

**You keep on denying things. When the Sun has risen, you will say that it is night time. That will not help you at all. Rather try to bring something good or similar from your sacred book.

What poof you need that it is that same Pharoah who drowned while pursuing the Israelis?. His body is on display in a museum in Cairo. About 25 years ago his body got some microb disease. That body was flown to France for treatment. There were 300 soldiers who presented a solute of honor to the body of the king at Orly Airport. He was given some Radio active treatment in France for six months.

If it was not the body of that Pharoah then why they were ready to present him arms (Solute) at midnight on airport? Please think and relax your muscles for a while.**

 

[planten]

LOL

The Muslims here really really REALLY do not get this thing about peer review.

Either the koran has pre-knowledge of scientific discoveries; or it does not.

While it is possible to assess individual claims – and those I’ve assessed have always turned out to be baloney – it is not possible for any one person to assess the claim as a whole. After all, Muslims make so many claims of this nature. There seems to be a new one every day.

Now the existence of pre-knowledge of scientific discoveries in a 14 century old document would be a matter of monumental importance to the whole of humanity. Muslim scholars owe it to the world to submit these claims to proper scientific scrutiny via the peer review process.

In fact I shall put it more strongly.

If I fail to “revert” to Islam because Muslim scholars are too inward looking, too lazy, too cowardly to submit these amazing claims to peer review scrutiny then it is not me, but those lazy, cowardly “scholars,” who will end up in hell.

And Muslim hell is no joke. See:

shariahprogram.ca/articles/hell-devil-description.shtml

So what about it Muslim “scholars?”

Save yourselves from hell.

Submit a paper to Nature. If your claims have as much merit as you appear to think the paper will sail through the peer review process.

Or are you all what we used to call “fraidy cats” when I was a little girl.

The Quran has said “All living things we created from water.”

Now would you like that to be presented to a body of scientists for its accuracy? Let that be done and give us their report please.

 

[planten]

**You please educate us. The Jews are leaders in education now in all fields. And the scientists are progressing because the church has withdrawn from all research work. Had they been pressing the bible theories then there would have been more killings in the world and oppression like was in the time of Galieo.

It is secular mind who is progressing in science, not the christian mind.**

 

[kristin2007]

Americanrevert, Planten,

If it’s that straightforward submit a paper to Nature or Science. I’ll even settle for Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

What’s stopping you?

Seriously.

What is stopping you?

You’ll be more famous than Einstein. You’ll be the heroes of the Muslim world.

Not only that but you’ll be responsible for thousands, if not millions, of “reverts.”

If the folks at Nature confirm there really is scientific pre-knowledge in the koran even I’ll “revert.”

BTW Planten, Bucaille never submitted his alleged findings about scientific pre-knowledge in the koran for peer review at any sort of reputable scientific journal.

**Why do you think that is?
**

 

[planten]

Americanrevert, Planten,

If it’s that easy submit a paper to Nature or Science. I’ll even settle for Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

What’s stopping you?

Seriously.

What is stopping you?

You’ll be more famous than Einstein. You’ll be the heroes of the Muslim world.

Not only that but you’ll be responsible for thousands, if not millions, of “reverts.”

If the folks at Nature confirm there really is scientific pre-knowledge in the koran even I’ll “revert.”

BTW Planten, Bucaille never submitted his alleged findings about scientific pre-knowledge in the koran for peer review at any sort of reputable scientific journal.

**Why do you think that is?
**

**We can only present a verse of the Quran, say “All living things We created from water.” It is either true or false. take it to the scientists and let them give their remarks. What do you think they will say?

Similarly there is a verse in the Quran about the expanding Universe. Take it to the scientists and take their opinion. Then let us know.

Also there is a verse about the cretaion of all things in pairs (male and female etc). Have a test on that too.

You see we have the Quran which is a revealed book. Its words are fixed. We cannot manipulate them. So we have nothing much to do. And youhave the Quran too with you. Just have a few things checked if they are true or false. That will decide the mirculous language (news) of the Quran. I hope I am right. What else can I offer you? Please give short reply. Thanks…**

 

[Isa_Almisry]

**There is a news about the body of Pharoah being preserved or saved to be seen by the future generations. That was the Pharoah, king of Egypt who opposed Moses a.s. and did not allow the exodus of the Jews from Egypt. The Quran says about that pharoah when he was drowning:

But this day (and forever), we shall save thee in thy body so that thou may be a sign for those who come after thee. But most people are heedless of our signs." (Al-Quran 10:92)**
That body, nobody knew about it. It was discovered only in the late 19th century A.D, buried underground in a pyramid. The pyramid was fully buried in the sand. Could it not be some kind of a miracle of the Quran, please.

None of the candidates for being the Pharaoah of the Exodus were buried in a pyramid: the Egyptians had stopped building them before the Hebrews arrived with Joseph.
As for the mummy, it must be among the cache found hundreds of miles away from Goshen.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB320
As the Egyptians were famous since Antiquity for their embalming skills, which the cache shows now, but was known in the time of your prophet. It’s no miracle.

Now if you want to talk about the incoropt relics of the Saints (which happens to this day: I venerated last month St. John Maximovich’s in San Francisco: he fell asleep in the Lord in 1966) that would be another issue.

I’m presssed for time now. Lord willing, I’ll reply to the longer, equally baseless, post.

 

[kristin2007]

Planten,

I do not know how to make this simpler for you.

Muslims claim that a 14 century old document contains pre-knowledge of scientific discoveries.

Not just a few things that it got right by chance. But actual pre-knowledge.

If that were to be verified by scientists using the peer review process – not Imams or Muslim “scholars,” not individual scientists making claims, but a proper peer review – it would transform human history.

It would cause mass “reversion.”

So, if you are confident of your facts, you Muslims owe it to humanity, you owe it to me, to submit a paper to a peer reviewed scientific journal so that the claims may be examined by impartial referees.

If you fail to do this out of laziness or cowardice you will surely go to hell.

 

[Angelos]

The sign is the preservation of the body of that Pharoah (that is his body is mummified). But first I should tell you that you have lost all self control after seeing the high grade truth of the Quran. So you have resolved to dispute it and to deny it. That is a bad idea to begin with. Do you see that you have bad intentions?

The traditional mummification of the Pharaoh’s corpse cannot be a miracle. Egyptians buried their deads in the same manner long before Mohammad got acquainted with the word Pharaoh. LOL Unless you prove that Egyptians began to mummify their Pharaohs after the death of the Pharaof of Exodus and that they did so due to a divine commandment imposed on them by God, your supposed miracle remains an absurdity born of your wishful thinking.

**
You keep on denying things. When the Sun has risen, you will say that it is night time. That will not help you at all. Rather try to bring something good or similar from your sacred book.**

How can you expect me NOT to deny the things of your personal fabrication?
planten;4179065:

**
**
What poof you need that it is that same Pharoah who drowned while pursuing the Israelis?. His body is on display in a museum in Cairo. About 25 years ago his body got some microb disease. That body was flown to France for treatment. There were 300 soldiers who presented a solute of honor to the body of the king at Orly Airport. He was given some Radio active treatment in France for six months.

If it was not the body of that Pharoah then why they were ready to present him arms (Solute) at midnight on airport? Please think and relax your muscles for a while.****

I need scientific and historic evidence rather than funny and beseless conspiracy theories.

 

[cathopologist]

**You please educate us. The Jews are leaders in education now in all fields. And the scientists are progressing because the church has withdrawn from all research work. Had they been pressing the bible theories then there would have been more killings in the world and oppression like was in the time of Galieo.

It is secular mind who is progressing in science, not the christian mind.**

What in the world are you talking about? Get out of that cave you live in and see whats been happening for the last 1400 years. Did you know that without the Church’s contribution to science, the world would have been in the same dark place you’re in now?

This is not a boasting competition, but do you know how many Catholic clergy and laymen have distinguished themselves in the sciences and mathematics for the last 2000 years? How do your Muslim heroes fair?

 

[Angelos]

ANOTHER HOAX: THE SKY AS A GUARDED ROOF IN THE KORAN

Working on the statements in the Koran that provide a specific Islamic portrayal of the heavens is a general characteristic of the Islamic scholars and writers that find in every case a way of attaching recent scientific discoveries to some Koran verses obscure in meaning or open to multiple interpretations. In other words, the peculiar depictions of the sky and the universe are second to none for many Islamic writers in the choice of Koran verses that give the hope of attractive and challenging comments or analogies, and several Muslims seem to have been beckoned by the majority of such verses.

One of the weird connections Muslim scholars/writers manage to make between the scientific data about the universe and a Koran verse is expounded in various books of Islamic propoganda under the title “The Guarded Roof”. To clarify this point and augment the examples manifesting the alleged miraculous peculiarities of the Islamic Holy Scripture, Muslims cling to this verse:

Surah 21:32
“And We made the heaven as a guarded roof, yet they are turning away from its Signs”

Then are added the crucial comment for those who fail to grasp the significance of this piece of revelation:

This outstanding feature of the sky was proved through scientific probations in the 20th century. The Atmosphere, which encompasses the world, fulfills the vital functions that are crucial for the continuity of liveliness. It annihilates numerous meteors in big and small size approaching the world by melting them and prevents them from falling onto the land and causing much harm to living beings.​

It must be noted in the first place that the Islamic ability and swiftness to construe the “sky” in the verse as “atmosphere” deserve much more praise than the supposed fact the verse itself reveals. Indeed, every single Muslim scholar possesses a wonderful ability to distinguish between the “sky” and the “universe”, which the Koran defines with the same word. This ability also merits applause as it adeptly ignores and conceals the fact that the verse introduced as hard evidence is only one of the several verses in the Koran pertaining to the guarded sky. The last – but not the least – Islamic success is the Muslims scholars’ eagerness and audaciousness to “distort” a Koran verse, assigning an active role in their exposition to the passive form of the verb “guard”; thus, the word “roof” in their hands ceases to be something “guarded” and starts to be something “guarding”. As a result, in the latest personal Koran version of those scholars, the sky is not the object of protection (although the verse quoted marks God as the agent of the verb), but is the perpetrator of guarding our world from meteors!

Here are some other verses in the Koran that depict the sky as a roof guarded by God; moreover, these verses elucidate against what the sky is protected:

Surah 15:16-18
“And We have set constellations in the heaven and adorned them for the beholders, and We have guarded it from every outcast devil, except him who listens by stealth then a visible flame follows him”

Surah 37:6-10
“We have adorned the nearer heaven with the adornment of the planets, and to guard against every rebel devil; they cannot listen to the High Council, for they are pelted from every side, to be repelled, and for them is a perpetual punishment, but any who snatches away a point, a shining flame follows him”

These two verses teach that the sky is guarded against rebellious devils and that God uses but meteors to guard the sky, which is in sharp contrast with the modern Islamic argument that the sky protects the world from meteors inasmuch as meteors are the useful instruments of protection:

Surah 67:5
“And We have adorned the nearer heaven with lamps, and made them means to stone the devils, and We have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze”

The following verse – believed to have been said by jinns – overtly debunks the ridiculous claim that the Koran foretells the guarding function of the atmosphere:

Surah 72:8-10
“We touched the heaven, and found it filled with terrible guards and meteors, and that we used to sit on its listening posts; __ but any who listens now shall find a meteor in wait for him, and that we do not know whether harm is desired for those on the earth, or their Lord desires the rectitude for them”

As a consequence, what is revealed by the alternative reading of a Koran verse by many Muslim scholars and translators is that the distinction of the agent of protection from its object means more than a grammatical modification called ‘passive voice’ and may even represent the deliberate and pathetic distortion of the Islamic scripture.

 

[kristin2007]

Angelos,

Have you thought about writing a book debunking the scientific miracles (so-called) of the koran?

I am being serious. You would be doing a service to humanity and make money as well. Given your in-depth knowledge and the controversial nature of the issues you should have no difficulty getting a publisher.

Why not consult a few literary agents?

 

[dolphinlove]

Angelos,

Have you thought about writing a book debunking the scientific miracles (so-called) of the koran?

I am being serious. You would be doing a service to humanity and make money as well. Given your in-depth knowledge and the controversial nature of the issues you should have no difficulty getting a publisher.

Why not consult a few literary agents?

I too think it would be a great idea, but we have to also think about the possible threat that would be put on his life.
If someone puts out a book debunking Islamic theories, they then get the fatwa issued against them.
This happened to salmon rushdie.
I would rather see Angelos safe than someone issue a death warrant out for his life, all because he releases a book that contains the truth.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

ANOTHER HOAX: THE SKY AS A GUARDED ROOF IN THE KORAN

Working on the statements in the Koran that provide a specific Islamic portrayal of the heavens is a general characteristic of the Islamic scholars and writers that find in every case a way of attaching recent scientific discoveries to some Koran verses obscure in meaning or open to multiple interpretations. In other words, the peculiar depictions of the sky and the universe are second to none for many Islamic writers in the choice of Koran verses that give the hope of attractive and challenging comments or analogies, and several Muslims seem to have been beckoned by the majority of such verses.

One of the weird connections Muslim scholars/writers manage to make between the scientific data about the universe and a Koran verse is expounded in various books of Islamic propoganda under the title “The Guarded Roof”. To clarify this point and augment the examples manifesting the alleged miraculous peculiarities of the Islamic Holy Scripture, Muslims cling to this verse:

Surah 21:32
“And We made the heaven as a guarded roof, yet they are turning away from its Signs”

Then are added the crucial comment for those who fail to grasp the significance of this piece of revelation:

This outstanding feature of the sky was proved through scientific probations in the 20th century. The Atmosphere, which encompasses the world, fulfills the vital functions that are crucial for the continuity of liveliness. It annihilates numerous meteors in big and small size approaching the world by melting them and prevents them from falling onto the land and causing much harm to living beings.​

It must be noted in the first place that the Islamic ability and swiftness to construe the “sky” in the verse as “atmosphere” deserve much more praise than the supposed fact the verse itself reveals. Indeed, every single Muslim scholar possesses a wonderful ability to distinguish between the “sky” and the “universe”, which the Koran defines with the same word. This ability also merits applause as it adeptly ignores and conceals the fact that the verse introduced as hard evidence is only one of the several verses in the Koran pertaining to the guarded sky. The last – but not the least – Islamic success is the Muslims scholars’ eagerness and audaciousness to “distort” a Koran verse, assigning an active role in their exposition to the passive form of the verb “guard”; thus, the word “roof” in their hands ceases to be something “guarded” and starts to be something “guarding”. As a result, in the latest personal Koran version of those scholars, the sky is not the object of protection (although the verse quoted marks God as the agent of the verb), but is the perpetrator of guarding our world from meteors!

Here are some other verses in the Koran that depict the sky as a roof guarded by God; moreover, these verses elucidate against what the sky is protected:

Surah 15:16-18
“And We have set constellations in the heaven and adorned them for the beholders, and We have guarded it from every outcast devil, except him who listens by stealth then a visible flame follows him”

Surah 37:6-10
“We have adorned the nearer heaven with the adornment of the planets, and to guard against every rebel devil; they cannot listen to the High Council, for they are pelted from every side, to be repelled, and for them is a perpetual punishment, but any who snatches away a point, a shining flame follows him”

These two verses teach that the sky is guarded against rebellious devils and that God uses but meteors to guard the sky, which is in sharp contrast with the modern Islamic argument that the sky protects the world from meteors inasmuch as meteors are the useful instruments of protection:

Surah 67:5
“And We have adorned the nearer heaven with lamps, and made them means to stone the devils, and We have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze”

The following verse – believed to have been said by jinns – overtly debunks the ridiculous claim that the Koran foretells the guarding function of the atmosphere:

Surah 72:8-10
“We touched the heaven, and found it filled with terrible guards and meteors, and that we used to sit on its listening posts; __ but any who listens now shall find a meteor in wait for him, and that we do not know whether harm is desired for those on the earth, or their Lord desires the rectitude for them”

As a consequence, what is revealed by the alternative reading of a Koran verse by many Muslim scholars and translators is that the distinction of the agent of protection from its object means more than a grammatical modification called ‘passive voice’ and may even represent the deliberate and pathetic distortion of the Islamic scripture.

I am always amazed how, with all those scientists we are told Islam had (and it had a lot), who studied the Quran, and wrote volumes on the Quran and its meaning, somehow they managed to conceal and leave out all these scientific discoveries so long ago put in the Quran. If they did, maybe they would have something to publish in the peer viewed journals.

 

[planten]

The Quran has said “All living things we created from water.”

Now would you like that to be presented to a body of scientists for its accuracy? Let that be done and give us their report please.

** I am posting (reminding) about my own post again. It appears that the scientist has run away.Scientist cannot face the truth which is described in the Quran and cannot try to investigate whether it is true or not.

Such beautiful knowledge in the Quran could not be less than a miracle. But christians do not believe in miracles. They deny the miracle ( promised sign) of Jesus that he was miraculously saved from the ignominus death on the cross. His enemies planned to kill Jesus on the cross.

Allah also planned to save Jesus from death on the cross and He did save him and brought Jesus down alive and Jesus was put in a spacius tomb (not really buried). That is a miracle for the sake of Jesus but christian do not admit it. They do not like it.

So why they will admit there is any miracle in the Quran? Please let us know what Science says about the creation of living things from water. The scientist should know it. **

 

[kristin2007]

LOL Planten,

Living things were NOT created from water.

All living things, so far as we know, need water to survive. But that is not the same as saying living things were created from water.

If the Sura had said “All living things we created with carbon” I would have been gobsmacked! It would have been an astounding observation in a 7th century document.

To the extent that you have translated the aya correctly, this is an example of a scientific inaccuracy in the koran.