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Angelos
Guest
Thanks for the quote
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Americanrevert
Guest
*amazin…another post from one that can’t post what Christians have done in the past…hmmm haven’t they murdered, killed, beheaded? I wonder why people insist on degrading Islam when there is no need…especially when your religion was involved in just this thing you mentioned. Hypocritical …remember what your bible says about judging eh?!
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americanrevert
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americanrevert
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Angelos
Guest
amazin… another post from one that can’t defend Islam without retaliating with a bad example from history… hmmmm aren’t Muslims still murdering, killing, beheading people in the name of their God and scripture? I wonder why Muslims insist on confusing Christianity with what some Christians did in the past… there is no need for that when Islam allows and commands Muslims to murder non-Muslims. Taqiyya. We should remember this is the core of Islam.
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planten
Guest
No politics please. It is a religious forum. So present only teachings of the bible and the Quran. Thanks. Tell about spiritual matters. Church has the holy spirit to guide them. So let that spirit talk now.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
Go to the link: it’s hysterical.Thanks for the quote
Example:
Performing Arts trainer and religious scholar:
To say that God cannot act irrationally is an insult to every irrational Muslim on earth and a blatant attempt to stifle unreasonable criticism.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
Our Lord said “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar, and that which is God’s to God.” And I’ve heard Muslims ridicule Christianity on the basis of it, praising how “practical” Islam is in contrast to “irrational” spiritual Chrsitianity is. We’re told that there is no separation of religion and state. Muhammad didn’t make one at Medina.
Btw, the satire is a combination of history and currect events. And since these events were occasioned by 'ulama complaining about something the pope of Rome said to candidates to the priesthood in a seminary, and theologians, it fits even your criteria.
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Angelos
Guest
I have been there and witnessed the fun! ROTFL.
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Angelos
Guest
ANOTHER ISLAMIC HOAX: DIMINISHING LAND IN THE KORAN!
Most of the verses in the Koran bear metaphoric expressions, and sudden transitions from literal meanings to figurative language is common in the text of the Islamic faith. However, these sudden transitions mostly go unnoticed either because they do not meet the expectations of the interpreters or because – as we witnessed in the refutation of an assertion under the heading “Sky: the guarded roof” – some interpreters know how to make them verify their personal opinions. The following verses are momentous in that they typify how figurative sense can be mistaken for literal meaning and begin to serve Muslim scholars and some alleged scientiests whose adroitness for detecting marvelous facts about the Koran knows no limits:
Surah 13:41
And have they not seen that** We are diminishing the land** from its sides? …
**
Surah 21/44**
…Now do they not see how We come to the land diminishing it from its borders? …
Muslim scholars/scientists later share with the reader the magnificence of the Islamic scripture along with their eloquent exposition of the verses above, saying:
A closer study of the verses above displays that we one more time encounter an ingenious demagogy that is based upon the ignorance of a metaphoric expression, which gains clarity once they are read with regard to the verses coming right before and after them, constituting the context of the statements.
Interestingly, what one should do, even before checking out the context of the above verses, is to pay attention to the missing parts of the sentences quoted by Islamic writers/scientists. Obviously, these quotations leave out the beginning and end of the sentences, pointing out a strange will to leave the two verses incomplete. Most probably, none of the Islamic coomentators fears that clipping the sentences on one’s personal request can utterly change the meaning of the message conveyed as well as it may decrease the supposed greatness of the scripture since one half of it will be inevitably omitted by the dropped parts of the verse. Thank goodness we have the rest of the Koran; therefore, we can find out the missing part of the verses and provide a satisfactory answer to the question why some parts of these verses are preferably omitted:
** Surah 13:41**
And have they not seen that We are diminishing the land from its sides? And God judges; there is none to repel His judgment; and He is swift at the reckoning?
Surah 21:43-44
Or have they any gods that protect them, apart from Us? They cannot help themselves, nor are they supported by Us. No, but We gave these and their fathers enjoyment, until life lasted long enough on them. Now do they not see how We come to the land diminishing it from its borders? Will then they be the victors?
These verses overtly address the idolaters and function as both a warning and a defiant statement produced at the time of a heated dispute. Because the identical question is addressed in both verses to the idolaters rather than to the entire world, it is unlikely that they be connected to the diminishing of lands, a scientifically proven geological development. Especially, the last sentence of 21/44 has a rhetoric that affiliates the diminishing of the land with the victory of Muslims against unbelievers, which suffices to debunk every sort of allegation that stems from the generalization of the word “land” although it is implicitly used as a referent of the land of Muslims’ adversaries. When the word “land” is thus specified, the verses in question are stripped of their miraculous peculiarity.
In addition, the Koran recounts the diminishing lands only at regional level when it seeks to respond to the conceit of pagans during a debate over the real owner of power and victory whereas it records the permanent vastness of the land at universal level when pagans are not directly addressed:
Surah 39:10
Say, `O My servants who believe, fear your Lord; for those who do good shall be good in this world; and God’s earth is vast; the steadfast will surely be paid their wages in full without reckoning.
Finally, the following verse gives clues about what the Koran wishes to mean when it threatens the idolaters by the assertion that God constantly diminishes the land:
Surah 29.66-67
They may show ingratitude for what We have given them, and that they may enjoy life; but they will soon know. And have they not seen that We have appointed a sanctuary secure, while, all about them, men are snatched away? Will they then believe in falsehood and disbelieve in the blessing of God?
In the light of this verse, it is rather reasonable to suppose that the expression “We diminish the land” denotes God’s swiftness in handing the unbelievers over to vulnerability, gradually lifting the shield of peace that protects their territory. As a consequence, rational and critical thinking perfectly collaborate to diminish the power of some Islamic hypotheses and eventually invade the sanctuary of shallow reasoning.
Most of the verses in the Koran bear metaphoric expressions, and sudden transitions from literal meanings to figurative language is common in the text of the Islamic faith. However, these sudden transitions mostly go unnoticed either because they do not meet the expectations of the interpreters or because – as we witnessed in the refutation of an assertion under the heading “Sky: the guarded roof” – some interpreters know how to make them verify their personal opinions. The following verses are momentous in that they typify how figurative sense can be mistaken for literal meaning and begin to serve Muslim scholars and some alleged scientiests whose adroitness for detecting marvelous facts about the Koran knows no limits:
Surah 13:41
And have they not seen that** We are diminishing the land** from its sides? …
**
Surah 21/44**
…Now do they not see how We come to the land diminishing it from its borders? …
Muslim scholars/scientists later share with the reader the magnificence of the Islamic scripture along with their eloquent exposition of the verses above, saying:
These amazing verses reveal a twofold fact. The first is that all the explosions in the sun cause the world to emit a large amount of gas and oxygen to space, which is equal to the loss of material from the outer layers of the world whilst the second is that the water level in the world keeps rising as waters begin to cover many lands as a result of the melting of huge ice blocks.
A closer study of the verses above displays that we one more time encounter an ingenious demagogy that is based upon the ignorance of a metaphoric expression, which gains clarity once they are read with regard to the verses coming right before and after them, constituting the context of the statements.
Interestingly, what one should do, even before checking out the context of the above verses, is to pay attention to the missing parts of the sentences quoted by Islamic writers/scientists. Obviously, these quotations leave out the beginning and end of the sentences, pointing out a strange will to leave the two verses incomplete. Most probably, none of the Islamic coomentators fears that clipping the sentences on one’s personal request can utterly change the meaning of the message conveyed as well as it may decrease the supposed greatness of the scripture since one half of it will be inevitably omitted by the dropped parts of the verse. Thank goodness we have the rest of the Koran; therefore, we can find out the missing part of the verses and provide a satisfactory answer to the question why some parts of these verses are preferably omitted:
** Surah 13:41**
And have they not seen that We are diminishing the land from its sides? And God judges; there is none to repel His judgment; and He is swift at the reckoning?
Surah 21:43-44
Or have they any gods that protect them, apart from Us? They cannot help themselves, nor are they supported by Us. No, but We gave these and their fathers enjoyment, until life lasted long enough on them. Now do they not see how We come to the land diminishing it from its borders? Will then they be the victors?
These verses overtly address the idolaters and function as both a warning and a defiant statement produced at the time of a heated dispute. Because the identical question is addressed in both verses to the idolaters rather than to the entire world, it is unlikely that they be connected to the diminishing of lands, a scientifically proven geological development. Especially, the last sentence of 21/44 has a rhetoric that affiliates the diminishing of the land with the victory of Muslims against unbelievers, which suffices to debunk every sort of allegation that stems from the generalization of the word “land” although it is implicitly used as a referent of the land of Muslims’ adversaries. When the word “land” is thus specified, the verses in question are stripped of their miraculous peculiarity.
In addition, the Koran recounts the diminishing lands only at regional level when it seeks to respond to the conceit of pagans during a debate over the real owner of power and victory whereas it records the permanent vastness of the land at universal level when pagans are not directly addressed:
Surah 39:10
Say, `O My servants who believe, fear your Lord; for those who do good shall be good in this world; and God’s earth is vast; the steadfast will surely be paid their wages in full without reckoning.
Finally, the following verse gives clues about what the Koran wishes to mean when it threatens the idolaters by the assertion that God constantly diminishes the land:
Surah 29.66-67
They may show ingratitude for what We have given them, and that they may enjoy life; but they will soon know. And have they not seen that We have appointed a sanctuary secure, while, all about them, men are snatched away? Will they then believe in falsehood and disbelieve in the blessing of God?
In the light of this verse, it is rather reasonable to suppose that the expression “We diminish the land” denotes God’s swiftness in handing the unbelievers over to vulnerability, gradually lifting the shield of peace that protects their territory. As a consequence, rational and critical thinking perfectly collaborate to diminish the power of some Islamic hypotheses and eventually invade the sanctuary of shallow reasoning.
P
planten
Guest
**You know very well that Jesus was right in what he said. He was being tempted and tested and his enemies wanted to have him arrested on some flimsy charge. But they could not find anything wrong with Jesus.
So this plan of asking about the tax given to Kaisar was good one. Jesus very wisely told the answer and avoided the issue. It was the est answer in that situation. He told the Jews to keep on giving tax and behave yourselves. One day you will be free and won’t have to pay any taxes to Kaisar. That was to believe in the man and follow all his advice and things will become easy for the Jews. They will not remain subjugated to the Romans.**
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Yes I do believe there are scientific miracles in the Qur’an.
What is a scientific miracle in the Qur’an? The Qur’an is not a science book. A miracle in the Qur’an in matters of science is just something that Muhammad (saaws) could not have known, and the only reason it could appear in the Qur’an is if God, who knew it, revealed it to him.
The miracle isn’t the science. The miracle is the Qur’an.
Has nothing to do with peer-reviewed journals.
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scipio337
Guest
Thank you. The People’s Cube has been a favorite parody site of mine for a long time.
Some of their other greats are
Offended Muslim Syndrome & Self-Help Support Groups
Following the misery inflicted on Islam by a toy bear that ended up with calls for the execution of an English woman.
And
Flat Fatima™ - Revolution In News Photography
After “ReutersGate™”
I think they’re a national treasure.
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mattkubes
Guest
I haven’t been able to make it through this entire thread…but why would scientific miracles in the Quran even matter? These claims present nothing outside the preternatural order - even if we assume they are present, that does not prove that it was God who put them there, nor does it necessitate the Quran’s infallibility. That’s simply a non sequitur.
God’s concern is our salvation, not our scientific progress. God reveals spiritual truths to us, not temporal ones. He doesn’t care how developed our knowledge of embryology is if we aren’t focussed on Him. All these claims of scientific miracles seem a little silly (or at least misplaced) to me.
God’s concern is our salvation, not our scientific progress. God reveals spiritual truths to us, not temporal ones. He doesn’t care how developed our knowledge of embryology is if we aren’t focussed on Him. All these claims of scientific miracles seem a little silly (or at least misplaced) to me.
K
kristin2007
Guest
Sister Amy wrote:
*A miracle in the Qur’an in matters of science is just something that Muhammad (saaws) could not have known, and the only reason it could appear in the Qur’an is if God, who knew it, revealed it to him. *
You, and other Muslims, are claiming that a 7th Century Arabian warlord received information of a scientific nature from God.
Muslims frequently use this claim to “prove” that the koran really is the word of God and that Islam, unlike Christianity, is a “rational” belief system that does not require faith.
In other words, Sister Amy, this claim has become central to the Dawa effort.
Now the claim is inherently of scientific in nature. Were it true it would be of the utmost importance to all humanity. It would transform our understanding of the nature of the universe.
What is more, should the claims pass scientific peer review it would result in mass “reversion.”
Muslim failure to submit this astounding claim to the normal scientific peer review process indicates one or more of the following:
–Muslims scholars are not, in fact, confident that the claim would survive rigorous scrutiny
–Muslim scholars are too lazy to submit the claim to the peer review process
–Muslim scholars are dissembling – practising taqiiya perhaps.
Sister Amy,
Why do you think Muslim scholars are so reluctant to submit these amazing claims to, say, Nature, the world’s foremost scientific journal?
My personal theory. They are cowards. They know the claims would be dismissed as baloney.
*A miracle in the Qur’an in matters of science is just something that Muhammad (saaws) could not have known, and the only reason it could appear in the Qur’an is if God, who knew it, revealed it to him. *
You, and other Muslims, are claiming that a 7th Century Arabian warlord received information of a scientific nature from God.
Muslims frequently use this claim to “prove” that the koran really is the word of God and that Islam, unlike Christianity, is a “rational” belief system that does not require faith.
In other words, Sister Amy, this claim has become central to the Dawa effort.
Now the claim is inherently of scientific in nature. Were it true it would be of the utmost importance to all humanity. It would transform our understanding of the nature of the universe.
What is more, should the claims pass scientific peer review it would result in mass “reversion.”
Muslim failure to submit this astounding claim to the normal scientific peer review process indicates one or more of the following:
–Muslims scholars are not, in fact, confident that the claim would survive rigorous scrutiny
–Muslim scholars are too lazy to submit the claim to the peer review process
–Muslim scholars are dissembling – practising taqiiya perhaps.
Sister Amy,
Why do you think Muslim scholars are so reluctant to submit these amazing claims to, say, Nature, the world’s foremost scientific journal?
My personal theory. They are cowards. They know the claims would be dismissed as baloney.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
I really don’t think you even read my post.
Sigh.
The Qur’an is not a science book. Most of the “scientific miracles” are only known because of the science. Like something appears in the Qur’an and people didn’t know what it meant until centuries later something is discovered in the scientific realm which brings new meaning to the Qur’an.
If you take an example like a fly, what makes the Qur’an’s description of the fly so miraculous is how it matches with what science has discovered about the fly. But why should anyone put the Qur’an in a scientific journal? The Qur’an is not a science book. It’s just that scientific knowledge is bringing new meaning to the Qur’an, meanings which couldn’t have been known or even understood by the Arabs at the time.
So I will repeat. **The Qur’an is not a science book. **
K
kristin2007
Guest
Sister Amy,
LOL,
You just don’t get it, do you?
I freely acknowledge that the koran is not a science book.
Anything but in fact.
However, the CLAIMS Muslims make about what is contained in the koran are of a scientific nature.
It is the CLAIMS that need to be tested. The best, the only credible, way of testing them, is to submit the **CLAIMS **to peer review.
The fact Muslims refuse to do this, seek every **excuse **to refrain from submitting these extra-ordinary CLAIMS, to peer review does not exactly enhance your credibility.
It seems to be a case of logic talks, garbage walks.
LOL,
You just don’t get it, do you?
I freely acknowledge that the koran is not a science book.
Anything but in fact.
However, the CLAIMS Muslims make about what is contained in the koran are of a scientific nature.
It is the CLAIMS that need to be tested. The best, the only credible, way of testing them, is to submit the **CLAIMS **to peer review.
The fact Muslims refuse to do this, seek every **excuse **to refrain from submitting these extra-ordinary CLAIMS, to peer review does not exactly enhance your credibility.
It seems to be a case of logic talks, garbage walks.
M
mattkubes
Guest
I’m going to be blatantly honest, but that would not cause me to “revert” (read: apostatize). I know you were just conjecturing, but I want people to understand that the thought wouldn’t even come to mind. Even if there are scientific miracles in the Quran, those notions are not outside of the intellects of angels…or demons (and certainly not the Evil One). The claim that God had to be the one to reveal these facts to humans is a logical fallacy. God wants to give us spiritual freedom, not scientific advancement.
Just one more nail in the coffin I suppose.
M
mattkubes
Guest
For curiosity’s sake, would you mind posting that description here? I’d like to see if the scientific truth is apparent to someone who doesn’t already presuppose the miraculous nature of the Quran. I understand if you’d rather not post it here, but I think it could be helpful.
But a quick search reveals some scientific inaccuracies as well…
Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky?
Nothing holds them up but (the power of) God. [nice, but wrong]
Verily in this are signs for those who believe. Surah 16:79
**
[emphasis mine, obviously haha]**
K
kristin2007
Guest
Mattkubes,
I have been asking Muslim scholars to respond to this challenge for over a year. It is an important issue because many people are gulled into “reverting” because they believe there is a scientific basis to Islam.
That, in fact, is the basis on which a Muslim colleague approached me. He though I might be susceptible to “reversion” if he could demonstrate the truth of these claims.
But, when the crunch comes, the “scholars” evade. They are cowards.
And that, I guess, tell you all you need to know about Muslims scholars and about Islam.
Logic talks; garbage walks.
I have been asking Muslim scholars to respond to this challenge for over a year. It is an important issue because many people are gulled into “reverting” because they believe there is a scientific basis to Islam.
That, in fact, is the basis on which a Muslim colleague approached me. He though I might be susceptible to “reversion” if he could demonstrate the truth of these claims.
But, when the crunch comes, the “scholars” evade. They are cowards.
And that, I guess, tell you all you need to know about Muslims scholars and about Islam.
Logic talks; garbage walks.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
I don’t even know what you’re talking about.
Logic, garbage?
There aren’t scientific claims in the Qur’an. As I’ve said already, the Qur’an is not a science book. I don’t even know what kind of “claims” your talking about. Seriously.
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