RCC Decision Not to Recognize LDS Baptism!

[BartBurk]

The speaker in the passage is supposed to be Jesus himself. Jesus is not an American. I assume that Jesus knows what a “professor” of a given creed is. Whether current LDS understand what the word really means is immaterial. If the Mormon god says that all the creeds are an abomination and all the professors of those creeds are corrupt, I think he knows what he is saying.

Besides, the early Mormons condemned members of other churches as strongly as the leaders of those churches:

God bless,
Paul

But we know it wasn’t Jesus speaking to Joseph Smith. In fact this version of Joseph Smith’s so-called vision was published years after the fact when Joseph had been persecuted mainly inspired by the ministers of the various churches. So Joseph Smith as an American is using the term professor as an American would. It would have been used to describe an educated person who led a congregation. The contempt Joseph Smith and his comrades had for the clergy class is well-known. It’s on display throughout the Book of Mormon. To conclude that Joseph Smith meant all of those who professed the creed is simply a point of view that can’t be squared with the facts. I don’t remember anyone ever teaching me this referred to anything but the ministers of religion. I was a Mormon for over 30 years – I always was taught and understood the term “professors” meant the teachers or ministers in the various denominations. It’s tempting to try to extend this to mean all Christians, but I don’t think that makes any sense in context.

 

[PaulDupre]

Hi Bart,
I agree with you that most Mormons today see the quote the way you say. But I have real doubts as to Joseph’s meaning, especially in light of proclamations like the one I quoted from Orson Pratt. There are many BY quotes that say essentially the same thing.

Both views have some support. Oh, well, I guess we can’t look into Joseph’s twisted mind to see what he really meant.

Thanks for your thoughtful posts, BTW. Always appreciated.
Paul

 

[BartBurk]

Hi Bart,
I agree with you that most Mormons today see the quote the way you say. But I have real doubts as to Joseph’s meaning, especially in light of proclamations like the one I quoted from Orson Pratt. There are many BY quotes that say essentially the same thing.

Both views have some support. Oh, well, I guess we can’t look into Joseph’s twisted mind to see what he really meant.

Thanks for your thoughtful posts, BTW. Always appreciated.
Paul

Perhaps an interesting way to look at it is to look at Joseph Smith verse 22-23 in the Pearl of Great Price:

1. I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects—all united to persecute me.
2. It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself.

I think this is pretty good evidence that when Joseph is speaking of professors he is speaking of the great ones of his day – the ministers of religion.

 

[PaulDupre]

Good point. I concede. But the question still remains, in modified form: What about the Nicene creed (or the Apostles’ Creed) is filthy, shameful and disgusting; and why is my pope, bishop, pastor, etc. debased, perverted and wicked for being a “professor” of that creed?
Paul

 

[po18guy]

Good point. I concede. But the question still remains, in modified form: What about the Nicene creed (or the Apostles’ Creed) is filthy, shameful and disgusting; and why is my pope, bishop, pastor, etc. debased, perverted and wicked for being a “professor” of that creed?
Paul

It would appear that young Mr. Smith might also have suffered from a type of messianic complex leading to a persecution complex, and possibly other complexes. He appears to have been obsessed with himself, rather than finding his place in the world as most other youths did. His later Masonic interest clearly influenced his thought and cemented his anti-Catholic ummmm, disdain, shall we say?

 

[zerinus]

Perhaps an interesting way to look at it is to look at Joseph Smith verse 22-23 in the Pearl of Great Price:

I think this is pretty good evidence that when Joseph is speaking of professors he is speaking of the great ones of his day – the ministers of religion.

You are right of course Bart; but the focus of attention in that exchange between the Lord and Joseph Smith was even narrower than what you have described. The Lord was not referring to all the ministers of other religions either; but only those few whom Joseph had encountered in that “religious excitement” he talked about, who later became his greatest persecutors. The following extract from a fireside address given by Elder Wm. Grant Bangerter, and published in the July 1986 issue of the Ensign under the heading: “It’s a Two-Way Street,” is relevant here:

I had cause for a few moments of reflection as President Gordon B. Hinckley was greeting a group of ministers during the open house in the Jordan River Temple several years ago. After he had welcomed them as our guests and expressed the appreciation we have for their service in bringing people to righteousness, he invited their questions. Two or three in the group, forgetting their manners as guests in a warm and friendly situation, asked some cutting and antagonistic questions. Central to their criticism was a demand for President Hinckley to justify the declaration mentioned in Joseph Smith’s testimony, as he beheld the Father and the Son, that those professors of religion were all corrupt. President Hinckley responded that the Lord did not say that.

As I have pondered the same question, I have wondered: Do we really believe that all ministers of other churches are corrupt? Of course not. Joseph Smith certainly did not intend to communicate that. By reading the passage carefully, we find that the Lord Jesus Christ was referring only to that particular group of ministers in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s community who were quarreling and arguing about which church was true. The Savior (not Joseph Smith) said that they were drawing “near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (JS–H 1:19.)

---

It is a fact, however, that Joseph Smith was roughly handled by the members and ministers of various prominent religions. These individuals tarred and feathered him, took up arms against him and his people, imprisoned him, and finally instigated his murder and martyrdom. Today, some like them follow a similar course of ridicule and persecution. Their antagonism, however, must not warp our understanding and conduct.

Are ministers of other churches inspired of God? Of course they are, if they are righteous and sincere. Do they accomplish good? Certainly.

zerinus

 

[po18guy]

You are right of course Bart; but the focus of attention in that exchange between the Lord and Joseph Smith…zerinus

zerinus,

You say the Mormon lord spoke to Joseph Smith and I’m sure that somebody did. But, it was not the God of the rest of the world, from all eternity.

Smith believed in the KJV. Please open it and explain the following. No second book may be used-if so, it becomes evidence of its own falseness:

Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”

Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.”

Isaiah 43:10 “Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me”

1 Corinthians 8:4 “…we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one”

Ephesians 4:5-6 “One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all…”

John 17:13 “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”

You need not explain this to Catholics. Joseph Smith is rendering account for his teachings even as we speak. May the Lord have mercy.

 

[BartBurk]

You are right of course Bart; but the focus of attention in that exchange between the Lord and Joseph Smith was even narrower than what you have described. The Lord was not referring to all the ministers of other religions either; but only those few whom Joseph had encountered in that “religious excitement” he talked about, who later became his greatest persecutors. The following extract from a fireside address given by Elder Wm. Grant Bangerter, and published in the July 1986 issue of the Ensign under the heading: “It’s a Two-Way Street,” is relevant here:

I had cause for a few moments of reflection as President Gordon B. Hinckley was greeting a group of ministers during the open house in the Jordan River Temple several years ago. After he had welcomed them as our guests and expressed the appreciation we have for their service in bringing people to righteousness, he invited their questions. Two or three in the group, forgetting their manners as guests in a warm and friendly situation, asked some cutting and antagonistic questions. Central to their criticism was a demand for President Hinckley to justify the declaration mentioned in Joseph Smith’s testimony, as he beheld the Father and the Son, that those professors of religion were all corrupt. President Hinckley responded that the Lord did not say that.

As I have pondered the same question, I have wondered: Do we really believe that all ministers of other churches are corrupt? Of course not. Joseph Smith certainly did not intend to communicate that. By reading the passage carefully, we find that the Lord Jesus Christ was referring only to that particular group of ministers in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s community who were quarreling and arguing about which church was true. The Savior (not Joseph Smith) said that they were drawing “near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (JS–H 1:19.)

---

It is a fact, however, that Joseph Smith was roughly handled by the members and ministers of various prominent religions. These individuals tarred and feathered him, took up arms against him and his people, imprisoned him, and finally instigated his murder and martyrdom. Today, some like them follow a similar course of ridicule and persecution. Their antagonism, however, must not warp our understanding and conduct.

Are ministers of other churches inspired of God? Of course they are, if they are righteous and sincere. Do they accomplish good? Certainly.

zerinus

You are probably right about that. The Protestant ministers of Joseph’s time frowned on the miraculous, partly in response to Catholicism’s continous claim to miracles. Protestant acceptance of miracles really only began with the rise of Pentacostalism. As I said earlier, Joseph Smith and most of his contemporaries had little dealing with Catholicism and most of what they believed about Catholicism was the result of misrepresentation by Protestant clergy. I doubt Joseph was specifically talking about the Nicene Creed when he criticized creeds since I really doubt he even understood what the Nicene Creed actually said about God. I think when Joseph was talking about creeds he was more likely to be talking about the statements of faith of the various denominations. I have very little quarral with Joseph on this score – my quarral with Joseph is his trying to start his faith up with a bogus scripture, the Book of Mormon and then following it up with the easily debunked Book of Abraham. And of course after his little adulterous affair with Fanny Alger it really got worse as he invented his plural marriage scheme as a way of justifying his dallyings. The multiple Gods, etc., didn’t come about until after Fanny – if he had been able to control his sexual urges perhaps his religion might have stayed on a more orthodox course.

 

[majick275]

but Joseph claimed that God spoke those words to him. we know that the nicene and apostles creeds were the primary ones used even if narrow down to the specific churches that Joseph visited in that particular area at that time. so what is it about those creeds that make them an abomination?

 

[zerinus]

I doubt Joseph was specifically talking about the Nicene Creed when he criticized creeds since I really doubt he even understood what the Nicene Creed actually said about God. I think when Joseph was talking about creeds he was more likely to be talking about the statements of faith of the various denominations.

That is correct, I agree with that.

I have very little quarral with Joseph on this score—my quarral with Joseph is his trying to start his faith up with a bogus scripture, the Book of Mormon and then following it up with the easily debunked Book of Abraham.

That is not correct. The Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are volumes of revealed scripture and the word of God.

And of course after his little adulterous affair with Fanny Alger it really got worse as he invented his plural marriage scheme as a way of justifying his dallyings. The multiple Gods, etc., didn’t come about until after Fanny—if he had been able to control his sexual urges perhaps his religion might have stayed on a more orthodox course.

That is not correct either. Joseph Smith was a mighty prophet of the Lord and a very great man. He committed no adulterous affairs with anybody. Many people have tried to malign and slander the holy prophets and servants of God in all generations; but their end has always been an unhappy one. Ham mocked his father Noah when he got drunk and exposed himself, for which he was cursed forever (Genesis 9:20-27). Dathan and Abiram rebelled against Moses and Aaron, and accused them of transgression, and were cursed, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up (Numbers 16:1-35). Jude had some appropriate remarks to make abut such folks:

Jude 1:

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

The great prophet Isaiah many centuries earlier had said this about such folks:

Isaiah 5:

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

---

23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

zerinus

Continued /. . .

 

[zerinus]

. . . / Continued

And likewise in modern scripture the Lord has had severe words to say to such people:

D&C 121:

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

---

19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

Our leaders too have had pretty scathing remarks to make to those who have slandered Joseph Smith and modern prophets of the Lord, and charged them with transgression. The following remarks were made by Harold B. Lee, and published under the heading, “Closing Remarks” in the 1974 issue of the Ensign, p. 125:

A few years ago, we had a woman who had written some scurrilous things about the Prophet Joseph Smith. (Mention was made of it here in the conference at that time.) Shortly thereafter, I met someone on the street and they asked me if there had been a revelation or an utterance at the recently concluded general conference that might be considered as a prophecy. And I said, “Did you hear the closing remarks of President George Albert Smith as he closed the conference? If you did, you heard a prophet speaking, and let me tell you what he said.” I happened to have a clipping in my wallet. This is what President George Albert Smith said:

“Many have belittled Joseph Smith, but those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of their infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by Joseph Smith and attached to his name, will never die.”​

No truer words were ever spoken, and that person fell just as all others will fall who try to tear down the work of the Lord.

These remarks are addressed to you, and others like you who have tried to malign and slander the character of Joseph Smith.

zerinus

 

[rmcmullan]

If all you whores of Babylon (is that too provocative? Should I just stick to Catholics?) can take a few minutes off from smacking Zerinus around, maybe you can explain something to me.

I was rather surprised that the Catholic Church accepted any one else’s baptism. In my mind I think that the priests have authority no one else has. In LDS terms, it is referred to as the authority to act in god’s name. There’s also the concept of sealing so whatever is sealed on earth can be sealed in heaven. But if anyone can perform the ordinance of baptism and it’s really Christs who performs it, then what authority does the priest have and isn’t the church almost a big old fan club?

 

[hosemonkey]

. . . / Continued

And likewise in modern scripture the Lord has had severe words to say to such people:

D&C 121:

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

---

19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

Our leaders too have had pretty scathing remarks to make to those who have slandered Joseph Smith and modern prophets of the Lord, and charged them with transgression. The following remarks were made by Harold B. Lee, and published under the heading, “Closing Remarks” in the 1974 issue of the Ensign, p. 125:

A few years ago, we had a woman who had written some scurrilous things about the Prophet Joseph Smith. (Mention was made of it here in the conference at that time.) Shortly thereafter, I met someone on the street and they asked me if there had been a revelation or an utterance at the recently concluded general conference that might be considered as a prophecy. And I said, “Did you hear the closing remarks of President George Albert Smith as he closed the conference? If you did, you heard a prophet speaking, and let me tell you what he said.” I happened to have a clipping in my wallet. This is what President George Albert Smith said:

“Many have belittled Joseph Smith, but those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of their infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by Joseph Smith and attached to his name, will never die.”​

No truer words were ever spoken, and that person fell just as all others will fall who try to tear down the work of the Lord.

These remarks were addressed to you, and others like you who have tried to malign and slander the character of Joseph Smith.

zerinus

All the flowery language in the world will not take away the fact that Joseph Smith and his minions were crooks and con-men, sexually depraved and promiscuous and the truth was not in them. The false religion that he perpetrated has continued his legacy, from organized adultery to the massacre of innocents at Mountain Meadows. It continues today with the deception of thousands, exploiting the gullibility of uneducated people in the Third World. You and those like you, zerinus, bear the guilt of promoting and perpetuating this false religion. Hopefully, these sins will be forgiven you when you are standing before the True God, not some “perfected man.”

 

[BartBurk]

. . . / Continued

These remarks are addressed to you, and others like you who have tried to malign and slander the character of Joseph Smith.

zerinus

I think Jesus will probably wind up letting you into heaven inspite of yourself Zerinius. Nobody can doubt you believe what you say even if you are blinded by your tradition. That’s what I believe purgatory was made for …

 

[BartBurk]

If all you whores of Babylon (is that too provocative? Should I just stick to Catholics?) can take a few minutes off from smacking Zerinus around, maybe you can explain something to me.

I was rather surprised that the Catholic Church accepted any one else’s baptism. In my mind I think that the priests have authority no one else has. In LDS terms, it is referred to as the authority to act in god’s name. There’s also the concept of sealing so whatever is sealed on earth can be sealed in heaven. But if anyone can perform the ordinance of baptism and it’s really Christs who performs it, then what authority does the priest have and isn’t the church almost a big old fan club?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

 

[rmcmullan]

Then what are Catholic priests for?

 

[zerinus]

I think Jesus will probably wind up letting you into heaven inspite of yourself Zerinius. Nobody can doubt you believe what you say even if you are blinded by your tradition. That’s what I believe purgatory was made for …

I wish I could be equally optimistic about you!

zerinus

 

[hosemonkey]

Then what are Catholic priests for?

Baptism is not the only thing that priests do. His most important task is to offer sacrifice to Almighty God, in the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Only one ordained and consecrated to God can perform this act. He offers the Body and Blood of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. Only those ordained in the line of Apostolic Succession, descending from Jesus Christ Himself, is capable of this True Sacrifice. No mormon, protestant or other heretic organization can do this, regardless of claim. The priest, of course, has many other powers and responsibilities in addition to baptism. He has dedicated his life to the service of others. He is a true custodian of souls.

 

[hosemonkey]

I think Jesus will probably wind up letting you into heaven inspite of yourself Zerinius. Nobody can doubt you believe what you say even if you are blinded by your tradition. That’s what I believe purgatory was made for …

Zerinus is going to spend a looooooooooooooooooooooooog time in Purgatory.

 

[Hellisreal]

I wish I could be equally optimistic about you!

zerinus

Why not be optimistic, lest you dont see God’s providence