RE: Gay couple - Diocese of Orange(Bishop Brown) rejects oath request

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sleepless:
The Bishop of Baker is completely correct. Why is it so hard to find one like him down here in So. Cal? God Bless all of you who are reading between the lines on this topic and refuse to be brainwashed.
The answer to your question may well be, because it IS SoCal. There are parts of this country and parts of every state where ultraliberal philosophies have infiltrated government, society and even the Church. I suspect the loosey goosey approach wouldn’t play well in a more conservative part of California. It’s such a shame that the good Catholics have to be challenged by leadership that has abdicated its role.

Lisa N
 
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kmktexas:
I agree and love the concept. I heard Bishop Vasa on Catholic Answers and the response in his diocese has been overwhelmingly positive.

BUT the Bishop’s oath is required of all those in ministy, NOT those to whom ministry is given. The Orange county parents are requesting an oath be given to the parents of all the school children. If the teachers, school adminstrators and diocisan school personnel were being asked to take the oath, I would be all for it. But how can you ask parents to sign an oath promising fidelity to the faith when the teachers won’t even stand up for the Church’s teachings?

It seems the oath should have been asked of the faculty, staff and pastor at the school. One would imagine that not be necessary.
 
Lisa N:
The answer to your question may well be, because it IS SoCal. There are parts of this country and parts of every state where ultraliberal philosophies have infiltrated government, society and even the Church. I suspect the loosey goosey approach wouldn’t play well in a more conservative part of California. It’s such a shame that the good Catholics have to be challenged by leadership that has abdicated its role.
Nope, Lisa, that is not the case here. Orange County CA is one of the more conservative counties in the country. We gave George W. Bush the largest vote margin in the country in the last election.

No, I think the answer has to do with the influence Cardinal Mahony had in recommending a candidate for the position. Orange County became a separate diocese in 1975, breaking away from the Diocese of Los Angeles. Los Angeles County and Orange are almost diametrically opposites, politically. But Rome may not have known that. Our first bishop was a liberal who I never heard or saw at a prolife rally or function but who had time towards the end of his career as bishop, while in a wheel chair recuperating from an operation, to visit a priest friend of his in Nevada who was protesting at a nuclear test site and had his picture taken at the protest and published in the paper covering it. The second bishop was more in line with the conservativeness of the county. Because of age, he had to retire. Meanwhile, Mahony came LA from Stockton CA where he was a bishop and well connected with the Mexican community. My uncle, who was an archbishop called me once after the appointment was made and told me "Mahony was a good man.” My uncle died a short time afterwards, which was too bad in many ways, one of which was my not being able to follow up with him later on as I got more involved politically on why he thought Mahony was a “good man.”

Anyway, Mahony’s Spanish support may have been the reason he was sent to LA and may be why he has influence on Rome in the OC selection since Brown was a friend of his. Both dioceses seem to be betting that Hispanics are the future of the Church in Southern California.
 
Lisa N:
The answer to your question may well be, because it IS SoCal. There are parts of this country and parts of every state where ultraliberal philosophies have infiltrated government, society and even the Church. I suspect the loosey goosey approach wouldn’t play well in a more conservative part of California. It’s such a shame that the good Catholics have to be challenged by leadership that has abdicated its role.

Lisa N
Well the funny thing is Orange County is conservative (politically anyway). I believe it is the only Republican stronghold in California.
 
****Damnable Falsehood ****

Bishop Brown’s Nuances on Domestic Partnerships

By Charles A. Coulombe

It all seemed simple and straight-forward.
In March 2000, the voters of the state of California approved Proposition 22, which added one sentence to the California Constitution: “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.” The measure was an effort to forestall any attempt at bringing homosexual marriage into this state, should any of the other 49 accept it. The state’s Catholic bishops endorsed Proposition 22.

It seemed simple and straightforward; but, of course, there was a great deal of discussion on the matter. During the bitter campaign, Bishop Tod Brown, on February 15, 2000, sent a terse memo with two attachments to the priests of the diocese of Orange. The bishop’s message read: "attached are two articles Moral Theology and Is Proposition 22 Discriminatory?, by Father Gerald D. Coleman, SS., regarding the marriage initiative, which expresses very well my own thoughts on this subject. I hope you will find them helpful to you."

Coleman wrote his piece in reply to an article in the January 18, 2000 San Jose Valley Catholic, the official mouthpiece of that diocese, in which one Michael Quieto, a senior at Gonzaga University in Spokane, attacked Proposition 22. Coleman outlined Quieto’s major points – that the initiative gave homosexuals the message that Californians do not accept them; that civil marriage is separate and distinct from sacramental marriage, which voters ought not to be able to affect; and that the issue is not marriage but equal access to legal protection, denial of such access being discrimination.

Father Coleman defended the California bishops’ support of Proposition 22 in a most interesting way. After seconding Quieto’s assertion that the Church strongly supports homosexual people, and citing the catechism in this regard – “the Catechism of the Catholic Church is clear the homosexuality is not a choice and homosexual persons ‘must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard must be avoided.’ (no. 2358).” – Father Coleman went on to consider what he considered the real controversy. “The moral question, then, is clear,” wrote Coleman. “Can one simultaneously affirm authentic respect and sensitivity toward homosexual persons and hold that marriage is a union only between a man and a woman?”

Mentioning its “instructive and helpful” quality, Father Coleman quotes canon law’s definition of marriage as being a sacramental union ordained by Christ between a man and woman. He then tells us that “Jesus did not change the meaning of marriage. Jesus did not create a sacramental bond that evaluates a non-sacramental bond as unworthy or undignified. Jesus merely pointed out that the marital union, when celebrated by two Christians, bears the additional meaning of a sacrament, a living sign of the unique marriage which Jesus has established with His Church.” Father Coleman asserts that such a union, which brings both mutual benefit and the rearing of children, must be protected by Church and state. Thus Proposition 22 is neither a way of demeaning homosexuals nor of compressing civil and sacramental marriage; rather it is a legitimate defense of marriage through defining it.

Still, one might wonder what Coleman meant about Jesus not creating “a sacramental bond that evaluates a non-sacramental bond as unworthy or undignified.” In the next two paragraphs he explained himself:

"Some homosexual persons," wrote Coleman, "have shown that it is possible to enter into long-term, committed and loving relationships, named by certain segments of our society as domestic partnership.

**“I see no moral reason why civil law could not in some fashion recognize these faithful and loving unions with clear and specified benefits. These unions would then be recognized by society as sustaining an important status deserving our respect and protection. I believe that this possibility could be pursued without equating such unions with marriage, and without in any way demeaning our needed respect and protection for the institution of marriage.” **

**** Continued on next post
 
**Of course, Father Coleman was not unaware that his ideas would face opposition. “This proposal will not be acceptable to those who believe that all homosexual people are immoral and who believe that the Church condemns homosexual persons,” he continued. But these latter are mistaken, he assures us: “The Church’s record on this point is clear and transparent, as evidenced in the citation from the Catechism. The biblical condemnation of homosexual acts should not be translated as a condemnation of homosexual people.” After citing Vatican II on the importance of marriage, he concluded by reiterating the need to both support Proposition 22 and foster “respect, compassion, sensitivity and non-discrimination toward our homosexual brothers and sisters.” **

Bishop Brown’s endorsement of these views came at rather a strange time for the Orange diocese. Rumors about Father Rod Stephens, head of the catechumenate and evangelization departments of the diocese and his supposed openly homosexual lifestyle were flying around (later in the year Father Stephens and his alleged relationship would be the focus of an article in the St. Paul, Minnesota based Catholic newspaper, The Wanderer). In this heady atmosphere, when the bishop’s memo leaked out, it was to be expected to meet with a strong reaction. You can read the rest by going to:losangelesmission.com/ed…2001/0201cc.htm
 
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HumbleSinner:
. During the bitter campaign, Bishop Tod Brown, on February 15, 2000, sent a terse memo with two attachments to the priests of the diocese of Orange. The bishop’s message read: "attached are two articles Moral Theology and Is Proposition 22 Discriminatory?, by Father Gerald D. Coleman, SS., regarding the marriage initiative, which expresses very well my own thoughts on this subject. I hope you will find them helpful to you."

From Father Coleman:

"Some homosexual persons," wrote Coleman, "have shown that it is possible to enter into long-term, committed and loving relationships, named by certain segments of our society as domestic partnership
.

**“I see no moral reason why civil law could not in some fashion recognize these faithful and loving unions with clear and specified benefits. These unions would then be recognized by society as sustaining an important status deserving our respect and protection. I believe that this possibility could be pursued without equating such unions with marriage, and without in any way demeaning our needed respect and protection for the institution of marriage.” **

****Continued on next post
**Well, it seems crystal clear from reading this article why Bishop Tod Brown doesn’t want to publicly endorse the Holy Father’s edicts! :banghead: :banghead: **
 
So these particular "religious"want you to love the sin and the sinner?They want to make God’s directives about homosexual acts null and void and and futher beliitle marriage:nope:
 
Thank you for your taking part in this discussion. Because of concerns over the level of charity or lack thereof at time, it is being closed.

Paul Stephens
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