Reality Check: Liberal handgun ban

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Libero:
**Did you know that even the Swiss Guard don’t use guns? What the Talmud says bears no relevance to me as I am Catholic, I follow the commandment “Thou shall not kill.” **
Dude, you need to check your facts in a serious, serious way.

I believe the Swiss Guard are armed with Sig 9mm pistols & H&K submachine guns. They do have heavier weapons (rifles, crew served weapons, etc) as well as a few armored vehicles. If you look really closely at some of the Vatican photo’s you can see the Swiss Guard Snipers around St. Peter’s Basilica…it was kind of a ‘hot topic’ around here when JP2 was on his deathbed…
 
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Libero:
What the Talmud says bears no relevance to me as I am Catholic, I follow the commandment “Thou shall not kill.”
I’m glad to hear that you are a Catholic and as a Catholic you are obligated to follow the official teachings of the Catholic faith which is found in the Catechism since Pope John Paul II specifically stated that the Catechism is the authoritative source for Catholic norms.

And the Official Catechism of the Catholic Church (specficically Part 3, Section II, Chapter 2, Article V, Paragraphs 2264-2265) state that we have a GRAVE duty to protect ourselves and other innocent individuals from harm. Read the passage yourself. We not only have a ‘right’ to self defense but a grave DUTY! It doesn’t list any exceptions with regards to guns. It also says that if we kill someone in performing this duty, we are not guilty of murder because we are required to take greater care of our own life than that of the attacker.

As a CATHOLIC, can I conclude that you follow this teaching and are fully prepared to the best of your ability to take on this GRAVE responsibility if the situation arises?

Oh, and for the record, he bible actually says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person.” Which is entirely different from not killing.
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Libero:
Guns are designed for one thing oly KILLING.
So are swords yet Jesus, Himself, instructed His followers to sell their outer garments in order to buy a sword (Luke 22:36-38; cf. 2 Corinthians 11:26-27 – a plain reading of the passage indicates that Jesus approved of self-defense). Here the “sword” (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler’s equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. Pretty much the equilavent of what a handgun is today.
 
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Libero:
Deranged psycho? Are these popular in America? If so that can only indicate huge problems. If not, then your just making up highly unlikely situations to support a terrible thing.
Most people will never be in a fatal car accident, yet most people wear seatbelts when they drive. Most people will never have a fire in their homes, yet most people have fire insurance. Most people will never even have their homes broken into yet most still lock their doors. I could go on and on. The point being that you hope for the best but prepare yourself for the worst …

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Sir Knight,

Don’t you just LOVE the little girl with the pink furniture on her M4? 😃

Doesn’t look like an EBR to me… 👍
 
Yes, she does. 🙂

Oh, and I invite you to stop by Family, Friends & Firearms – it’s a pro-gun internet discussion board that I co-own & operate.
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Isidore_AK:
I believe the Swiss Guard are armed with Sig 9mm pistols
Do you know which one? My wife let’s me pick out my own Christmas present and I’m thinking of the Sig P229 SAS in .40S&W caliber.
 
Sir Knight:
Yes, she does. 🙂

Oh, and I invite you to stop by Family, Friends & Firearms – it’s a pro-gun internet discussion board that I co-own & operate.

Do you know which one? My wife let’s me pick out my own Christmas present and I’m thinking of the P229 SAS in .40S&W caliber.
No, I can’t find it…I think its the P220, but I’m not positive. I’m unable to find a web-resource that mentions it…just that they use Sig’s.
 
I believe the P220 only comes in a .45ACP.

The 225, 226, 228, 229 & 239 come in 9mm.
 
Sir Knight:
I believe the P220 only comes in a .45ACP.

The 225, 226, 228, 229 & 239 come in 9mm.
There’s actually TWO P220’s. The ‘European’ in 9mm (Adopted in 1975 by the Swiss Army, has the mag release at the butt of the stock), and the ‘American’ in .45 ACP (all that is manufactured now, has the mag release by the trigger guard).

Here’s a link:
world.guns.ru/handguns/hg55-e.htm
 
Sir Knight:
Yes, she does. 🙂

Oh, and I invite you to stop by Family, Friends & Firearms – it’s a pro-gun internet discussion board that I co-own & operate.
Oh, I will have to visit your site. I believe you’ve mentioned it before…just never got around to it. Now its bookmarked. 👍
 
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Libero:
Defenceless? How about this, buy a lock for your door, and then get a burgular alarm.
As my daddy says, a lock only keeps an honest man honest.
 
As a Canadian living in a pretty quiet community, I would carry a handgun if I could. I would pray every day that I would never feel the need to use it, but on the tiny chance that I might find myself in a situation where I need to defend my family or myself, I would carry a handgun.

I have never been assaulted. I’m a pretty big guy with a brown belt (one step below black) in Goju-ryu karate. My home has never been broken into. I have never found myself in a situation where I wished I had a gun, but one day I might, and I want to have one me if I feel I need it.

The problem with banning guns is that it prevents honest and honorable citizens from protecting themselves by ensuring that only criminals have guns.
 
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Libero:
Deranged psycho? Are these popular in America? If so that can only indicate huge problems. If not, then your just making up highly unlikely situations to support a terrible thing.
Have you even read the statistics which have been posted? Particularly about the increase in violent crime since Australia went gun-free? Are you even interested?
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Libero:
You could always however, get a heavy mahogony door, get double glazed windows, and if your incredibly paranoid get a “safe room”.
Do you have some sort of evidence that bullets cannot penetrate these materials? Many of the shootings up here in Toronto have been drive-bys: people sitting in their livingrooms and being shot dead straight through outer walls (which are quite thick in Canada) by stray bullets from passing cars.
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Libero:
No, infact I think that when your child is still psychologically scarred from their childhood because you put a bullet through someones head in front of the child you will not be laughing, neither will anyone else.
The children who have been scarred by the latest spate of shootings in Toronto have been those who have watched defenseless friends been gunned down by violent criminals.
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Libero:
See if guns are quite so easy to justify then, when your child at the age of fifty can still hear the gushot in their head, when they can remember asking “daddy why is that person not moving?” “daddy why is he all red?”
For which there is a cogent and responsible answer. Kids don’t get to be kids forever. They get to grow up. Questions have answers.
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Libero:
I asked if it was a joke becuase I really could not believe that thinking if you were buying someting designed solely to kill was okay because you might “defend your children”.
Asked and answered. Did you read the answers?
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Libero:
Did you know that even the Swiss Guard don’t use guns? What the Talmud says bears no relevance to me as I am Catholic, I follow the commandment “Thou shall not kill.”
The commandment means “Thou shalt not murder.” Several teachings are given in the Catechism on legitimate self-defence, just war, principle of double effect. Have you read the Catechism on those issues?
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Libero:
Guns are designed for one thing oly KILLING.
Unfortunately they often are used for THREATENING, COERCION, AND MURDER – all of which differ from killing.
 
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Lapsed:
As a Canadian living in a pretty quiet community, I would carry a handgun if I could. I would pray every day that I would never feel the need to use it, but on the tiny chance that I might find myself in a situation where I need to defend my family or myself, I would carry a handgun.
I am Canadian too. I live in Toronto where the big kefuffle is about shootings. It looks like the Conservatives are the only party who are going to let us carry handguns this time around.
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Lapsed:
I have never been assaulted. I’m a pretty big guy with a brown belt (one step below black) in Goju-ryu karate.
My karate teacher always used to say that karate isn’t about self-defence. He always used to say that if you want to defend yourself then buy a gun. I mean look at the differences in range: the range in karate is about the length of an arm or a leg. The range in gunning is what?
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Lapsed:
My home has never been broken into. I have never found myself in a situation where I wished I had a gun, but one day I might, and I want to have one me if I feel I need it.
A long time ago, my house was broken into seven times. Only an awake police officer who was willing to apprehend kept me away from the perp. Most of the time in Toronto, you can call the police and all you get is some sweet talk.
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Lapsed:
The problem with banning guns is that it prevents honest and honorable citizens from protecting themselves by ensuring that only criminals have guns.
Yes. And why do criminals have guns? Because they break the law to get them. If guns are banned and Canadians decide that they need guns to protect themselves from intruders and gangs, then we will have to break the law to do so. That doesn’t make sense to me.

The trouble is that many of us Canadians don’t know our history. There is a 600 year old common law tradition about the right to bear arms. If First Nations are allowed to bear arms, then everyone should be allowed to.

By the way, the gun ban seems to be about handguns not rifles. Does this differentiation make sense to anyone? I see it as a political ploy to reconcile two different laws: one for First Nations and one for the rest of us. Another Separate Solitude. Does anyone have any insight on why the Liberal Party is targetting handguns and not rifles?
 
Ani Ibi:
By the way, the gun ban seems to be about handguns not rifles. Does this differentiation make sense to anyone? I see it as a political ploy to reconcile two different laws: one for First Nations and one for the rest of us. Another Separate Solitude. Does anyone have any insight on why the Liberal Party is targetting handguns and not rifles?
Because a ban on handguns has general appeal to left-leaning urban voters without creating nearly as much backlash from rural voters as trying to ban long guns would.

I see it as a deliberate ploy on the part of the Liberals to gain urban votes in the West, especially Vancouver, where they don’t have anywhere near the support they have in Ontario. They know the Sponsorship Scanadal is going to cost them a lot in Quebec and the Tories are making strides in Ontario, so they’re targeting urban Western voters since they know they have little hope in rural ridings out here.

In short, they’re after the tradtional NDP vote in the West to try and cling to power.
 
I see where pro-gun people are coming from. I think you should be allowed to protect yourselves. I can also see where the anti-gun people are coming from. I think that availability of handguns means criminals can get them. I have sympathies with both sides.

But the do it for the children thing? You DO know what happened at Dunblane don’t you? And the girl with the gun picture is terrible.
 
Have you even read the statistics which have been posted? Particularly about the increase in violent crime since Australia went gun-free? Are you even interested?
I have looked, but look elsewhere and you shall find that there are instances that are completely contradictory to what you have backed up with evidence. Ireland for example.
Do you have some sort of evidence that bullets cannot penetrate these materials? Many of the shootings up here in Toronto have been drive-bys: people sitting in their livingrooms and being shot dead straight through outer walls (which are quite thick in Canada) by stray bullets from passing cars.
Well in that case, how does a gun help you, when you are sitting in your front room, a person whizzes by in a car, how does owning a gun really help?

These instances you have exampled show a terrible society, rather than trying to fight and erradicate it, why don’t you try to correct it? DAC Paddick effectively tackled crime and particularly drugs in his area not by fighting it, but by liason with the community, he was extremely liked by the people in his borough, and saw incredible crime reduction rates.
For which there is a cogent and responsible answer. Kids don’t get to be kids forever. They get to grow up. Questions have answers.
This is merely cherry picking where you put that philiosophy, it appears to be the case when it comes to guns, but when homosexuality or bad songs in lyrics are involved, then you wish to protect your children forever.
Asked and answered. Did you read the answers?
I did read the answers, and I was astounded, never before have I encountered something like this, when I see programs about guns in America (comedy or not) I always think “oh this is just beign exaggerated for effect” - apparently not.
Unfortunately they often are used for THREATENING, COERCION, AND MURDER – all of which differ from killing.
Such brilliant characteristics. These may guns a must for me :tsktsk:

I am now more greatful than ever that I live in England.

P.S. Sorry about the incorrect fact about the Swiss Guard, it was from a book that is now outdated.

Question - Is anyone else on CAF anti guns?
 
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Libero:
No, infact I think that when your child is still psychologically scarred from their childhood because you put a bullet through someones head in front of the child you will not be laughing, neither will anyone else. See if guns are quite so easy to justify then, when your child at the age of fifty can still hear the gushot in their head, when they can remember asking “daddy why is that person not moving?” “daddy why is he all red?”

I asked if it was a joke becuase I really could not believe that thinking if you were buying someting designed solely to kill was okay because you might “defend your children”.
I think that child will be even more psychologically scarred if she had to watch her daddy get shot and killed. Because if her father kills someone in her sight, it’s most likely because his and his daugher’s lives were in immidiate danger.
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Isidore_AK:
And the best way to keep you kids from getting hurt is to teach them how to shoot (with all the requisite firearms safety).
Exactly!
Christus Rex:
I can also see where the anti-gun people are coming from. I think that availability of handguns means criminals can get them. I have sympathies with both sides.
But the two are not as connected as it would seem. When a country bans guns, it asks that all citizens turn them in. The law abiding ones will, and the criminals won’t. They also won’t stop importing them, selling them, trading them, etc. That leaves the criminals as the only ones who are armed. Sure, in a country like this one some criminals get their guns by stealing them from people who lawfully own them, but I don’t think that’s the main source.
 
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