Reconciliation for Police Force Mistakes?

[Fuerza]

I’m not sure to which “domination” you’re referring. Police have been attacked and shot at. A few have been murdered, and one is in critical condition after being shot in the head. Who is it who is trying to dominate?

 

[Fuerza]

The officers should have called his attention to the fact that his knee was on his neck, and if he didn’t respond they should have gently moved it for him. If he still could not be removed, they could have appealed to his sense of self-preservation and reminded him about all the cameras. After that they could have simply pulled him off. All those steps could have been accomplished in less than 30 seconds. A handcuffed person who isn’t fighting doesn’t need to be held by the neck. Placing a knee on his shoulders or hips would have been more than sufficient to make sure he didn’t start fighting. “Hog-ties” are not an option. Aside from being an undignified way to restrain someone, they introduce the risk of suffocation if the suspect is not positioned properly.

 

[Fuerza]

I don’t know much about that case, since it happened before I became a cop (we tend to get briefed on these situations even when in other jurisdictions), but if true it’s disgusting. The officer in question was ultimately sentenced to prison, though I think it was for a different incident.

 

[Annie]

Hog-ties” are not an option. Aside from being an undignified way to restrain someone, they introduce the risk of suffocation if the suspect is not positioned properly.

It does seem like positional asphyxiation is a huge problem.

But I rarely hear about suspects’ feet being “hand-cuffed.” I mean, I was thinking about police having a man prone on the ground with handcuffs behind his back: I can see why they wouldn’t want to turn him over on his side because then he could kick out with his feet but being on his side would be so much safer. So couldn’t they bind someone’s feet so they could more safely put him in a position other than prone?

 

[Fuerza]

We can use leg shackles, but they only prevent someone from running, or from kicking when standing. They don’t prevent someone who is sitting or lying down from kicking. Besides, most officers aren’t issued leg shackles to carry around with them. Aside from being impractical, it makes it much harder to escort a prisoner, especially if there is a need to climb steps.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

“Hog-ties” are not an option. Aside from being an undignified way to restrain someone, they introduce the risk of suffocation if the suspect is not positioned properly.

So position him properly.

I know it’s undignified, but if the alternative is to have the suspect free either to flee, or to fight the officers, well, some solutions are imperfect, but they’re better than the alternative.

If Floyd had been restrained in this way, he would still be alive, and cities wouldn’t be burning.

Just as a side point, this incident may cost Trump the election, and may prevent for many years, if ever, the nomination and confirmation of Supreme Court justices who might overturn some pro-choice legal provisions. Trump’s response has been hideous — I am all in favor of a President paying respect to Scripture (reading and knowing a little about it would be nice, as would be all 72 or 73 books, depending on how one counts them, not just the 66 books in Protestant Bibles), but his infamous “photo-op” in front of the Episcopal church was just gross. Worse yet is denouncing his opponents as “losers”, “low-life”, “weak”, and so on. The last presidential candidate who used “law and order” as a mantra was George Wallace (who, did, thankfully, repent of his deeds later in his life) — I’m all for law and order, but it’s a dog-whistle.

It’s a mess, and ultimately, it may have to be unborn babies who pay the price. If you will peel back through everything that has happened to the detriment of this country in the past 50 years, ultimately it goes back to abortion. The causal pattern is too lengthy to go into here, but I am convinced that it is true.

 

[Fuerza]

Perhaps I should have gone further in my explanation. I know of not a single police department that does not forbid hog-tying. Granted they also tend to forbid killing suspects without justification, but hog-tying would have involved consciously, visibly, and undeniably taking several steps to violate policy.

I disagree with your side-note. Most people with whom I’m coming into contact see this whole episode as a liberal failure. Trump’s support is picking up in many circles, especially since he immediately denounced the murder and ordered an FBI investigation, something that most media outlets refuse to acknowledge. I would agree with you if you were only relying on left-wing sources, but looking into conservative and independent media paints a different picture. If anything, the response of democrats is going to all but assure his re-election.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

These are all already policies in every police department.

I’ve only seen a few videos where one of the other officers stops an incident in progress. Most of them they are just standing by.

The only hold up for cameras for all is that they are extremely expensive. The video storage for even a smaller department like mine was hundreds of thousands per year.

That’s more of a phased in thing admittedly. Though video does exonerate the many many excellent cops falsely accused of wrongdoing.

 

[Fuerza]

What percentage of police incidents in the world have you seen? With the incidents that you have seen, how many were incidents of actual excessive force vs. what appeared to be excessive force to someone outside the situation? An officer won’t push another off if what he’s doing is deemed necessary under the circumstances. Remember, just because you don’t like or disagree with an action taken by an officer doesn’t mean that he or she was wrong, even if he or she appears to be acting aggressively to an outsider. That said, again, lest a certain poster here (not you) try to report me for “incendiary comments”, the officer in the Floyd case was 100% wrong.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Perhaps I should have gone further in my explanation. I know of not a single police department that does not forbid hog-tying. Granted they also tend to forbid killing suspects without justification, but hog-tying would have involved consciously, visibly, and undeniably taking several steps to violate policy.

I did not know that. There are times when a suspect has to be restrained and prevented from resisting arrest or fleeing the scene. I have to think hog-tying is more humane than tasering or using tear gas. If a suspect is thinking rationally (sometimes that’s a big “if”), once they realize they are immobile, they can just quit resisting, not say one single word, not move a muscle, and start thinking about how quickly they will be able to get an attorney.

I disagree with your side-note. Most people with whom I’m coming into contact see this whole episode as a liberal failure. Trump’s support is picking up in many circles, especially since he immediately denounced the murder and ordered an FBI investigation, something that most media outlets refuse to acknowledge. I would agree with you if you were only relying on left-wing sources, but looking into conservative and independent media paints a different picture. If anything, the response of democrats is going to all but assure his re-election.

I hope you’re right. I carry no water whatsoever for Trump — I voted third-party for president in 2016 — and the only reason I am voting for him in November, is in hopes that he will be able to nominate Supreme Court justices who will at least chip away at Roe v Wade. I have to hope as well, that the pro-life justices will lay aside any ideas of retirement until it is absolutely impossible for them to serve anymore. The pro-choice justices can retire any time they want to, and I wish them good health and happiness in their retirement.

I would be very happy to see Trump drop out of the 2020 race and be replaced by some electable, more statesperson-like candidate (not Mike Pence) — Nikki Haley (good) or Bobby Jindal (better) come immediately to mind, are both people of color, but neither is black or white. Not much to dislike there.

 

[Dovekin]

I’m not sure to which “domination” you’re referring. Police have been attacked and shot at. A few have been murdered, and one is in critical condition after being shot in the head. Who is it who is trying to dominate?

Yes, that is what I meant. No one should try and dominate. I am not sure why you would think I am referring to one side or the other. My whole point was encouraging solidarity.

Dominate was the term Trump used to describe the correct response to the protests, so there are some political implications. But police and protesters both err when they seek domination, and are both right when they affirm solidarity.

 

[Fuerza]

Because your posts typically evince an extremely liberal bias, and the word “dominate” has become an anti-Trump and anti-police rallying cry. I apologize if I misconstrued your response.

 

[Dovekin]

Because your posts typically evince an extremely liberal bias, and the word “dominate” has become an anti-Trump and anti-police rallying cry. I apologize if I misconstrued your response.

You read with a “conservative” bias.Dominate has become an anti-Trump rallying cry, but not anti-police. Unless you have some evidence? The sides are solidarity vs domination, not Democrat vs. Republican. Conservative news sources will not let you see that.

 

[Fuerza]

I do read with a conservative bias, which I admit, but I also read liberal news sources, so I know very well what they say. You should try reading Fox every now and then, or even The Blaze. I think you might be surprised to find that they often post liberal articles without any rebuttal. They also often post criticisms of Trump, whereas you will never see the conservative side accurately portrayed on CNN or NBC. My evidence for my belief is what I, as a police officer, see on the street, not what they say on CNN or what you may see on TV. Regardless, I only mention it because you asked what made me think you were taking an anti-police stance. As I already said, I apologize if I misunderstood your point.

 

[blackforest]

Law enforcement needs to build better bridges with the community. There needs to be more transparency, (body cams are a start), more accountability, (outside of Internal Affairs as @HomeschoolDad suggested ), more justice, (an end to corrupt officers getting off the hook), and less militarization, (a role traditionally reserved for the National Guard).

other officers on scene should have an obligation to physically stop abuse occurring near them without fear of reprisal.

Your suggestions are all wonderful but this is my favorite.

If the public learns to fear the police, they will stop calling them when they really need them. This phenomenon has led to corruption and chaos in countless countries throughout the globe. We can do better.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

What percentage of police incidents in the world have you seen? With the incidents that you have seen, how many were incidents of actual excessive force vs. what appeared to be excessive force to someone outside the situation?

A very small percentage of course. But the problem is that this small portion taints the whole group unfortunately.

 

[TK421]

In addition to body cameras (the case in Minneapolis is being prosecuted thanks to the recording from disturbed bystanders) it would be beneficial for both the public and the police to be de-armed, however long that may take.

 

[Dovekin]

it would be beneficial for both the public and the police to be de-armed

While I agree with you, this does not really fit with the current situation. The weapon used was a knee, not a gun or arrow.

 

[Peeps]

And for that matter, could not one private citizen have gotten involved? I get that people are afraid, but what about laying down your life for a friend?

I’m pretty certain a bystander did intervene. On the Today Show this morning (NBC), there was a story about a bystander who was pleading with the cops to let him up. You don’t see the man, but you hear his voice. Tragically, the cops didn’t listen to him.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I suspect devoting more money to hire more cops would help. Nothing on this earth aids cop/community relationships like PRESENCE. A lot more cops need to get out of their cars and walk the neighborhoods, probably in pairs. And they need to go inside places of business. I remember when I was a kid, there was a foot cop who went into my dad’s office every morning of the world, said hello and tore off the previous day from the day-by-day calender he had. He would do that, say a few words and go on his way. My dad wouldn’t let me touch that calendar. The cop had those little rituals everywhere. People would have done anything for him.