Redeeming Qualities in Same-Sex Relationships

[1990Domer]

When you said that they had the media “on their side”, it communicated to me that the media could help them, and that you wish you had that kind of “help.” I’m glad that this message wasn’t your intent.

I forgot to add that media also encompasses teacher education materials (either in print form or digital form) and/or publications as to the newest teaching techniques.

 

[Smack]

That’s amazing that your son is discerning priesthood!!!

Sure, what I meant was as a celibate gay/SSA person, I generally find the gay activist/movement community more as an annoyance than anything rather than helpful or supportive. They generall don’t like us (because we choose to be celibate) and by going after Christianity, they help encourage the flames and animosity I might sometimes feel in Christian communities (ie the US vs THEM mentality) where some view people like me as a submersive threat who are quietly seeking to undermine the Church. (Once again I’m not trying to imply that anyone here is like this, but I do have family members with this mentality which is extremely frustrating).

I am so sorry that people view you that way. I call you courageous. I have gay celibate friends just like you but they keep their battle on the down-low because they are afraid of getting the stares. I think you are so brave. You are making a difference, truly. As believers we are called to be real, not fake, so by being upfront you are drawing out people’s real motivation. Is it to support one another in becoming more Christ-like in our struggles? Or is it to be shiny, plastic people? Thank you for being so transparent. One day I hope we can all be upfront about our struggles (alcoholism, pedofilia, gambling, abusing, and myriads of others) because we’ll be in a supportive community parish (or church) rather than a country club parish. Bless you.

 

[Thorolfr]

I have gay celibate friends just like you but they keep their battle on the down-low because they are afraid of getting the stares.

If they are from conservative Protestant denominations, that’s probably because most of these denominations don’t really make any distinction between having same-sex attraction and acting on it. Or at least that is what I experienced growing up Southern Baptist. For most of these denominations, having same-sex attraction is almost as sinful as acting on it. That’s why they usually advocate so called “conversion therapy” (also called “reparative therapy”) for such people, believing that God can make them straight if they pray enough and really try hard enough.

 

[Rau]

If they are from conservative Protestant denominations, that’s probably because most of these denominations don’t really make any distinction between having same-sex attraction and acting on it. Or at least that is what I experienced growing up Southern Baptist. For most of these denominations, having same-sex attraction is almost as sinful as acting on it. That’s why they usually advocate so called “conversion therapy” (also called “reparative therapy”) for such people, believing that God can make them straight if they pray enough and really try hard enough.

Or they just prefer to live the private aspects of their life discreetly, in private.

 

[LongingSoul]

This is starting to go off-topic from the OP but I think I see what you are saying. The Sacrament of the Eucharist has many effects. The primary effect is the grace that flows from receiving the real presence of Christ, body/blood/soul/divinity. A secondary effect is the remission of venial sins. The Pope’s statement seems to be reminding us of that secondary effect. But he is not stating (nor could he) that one may licitly receive Communion in a state of mortal sin nor that this is a substitute for the forgiveness of sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

It doesn’t seem that the Pope is broadening the understanding of the Sacrament but rather reminding us that there are many facets.

Whatever description one uses to explain what the Pope is saying, it is meant to have some effect on our understanding of the Sacraments and sacramental grace. One of Pope Francis’ gifts is for recognising flawed memes in both liberal and traditionalist perspectives. I’m looking forward to what comes out of the synod treatment of the two controversial issues in order to help me to have the most Catholic attitude possible towards both gays and the remarried even though neither affects me personally.

 

[Smack]

If they are from conservative Protestant denominations, that’s probably because most of these denominations don’t really make any distinction between having same-sex attraction and acting on it. Or at least that is what I experienced growing up Southern Baptist. For most of these denominations, having same-sex attraction is almost as sinful as acting on it. That’s why they usually advocate so called “conversion therapy” (also called “reparative therapy”) for such people, believing that God can make them straight if they pray enough and really try hard enough.

That’s not true of all churches (Protestant nor Catholic). I don’t know what Southern Baptist church you went to, but I belong to a group of believers (most of them conservative baptists) that make a HUGE distinction between attraction and acting on the attraction. I do know of people who have been successful in overcoming their same sex attraction (famous songwriter Dennis Jurnigan, to name just one- look him up). The lie is that it’s hopeless. It’s also a lie that just praying it away will work for everyone, but just because the battle is hard doesn’t mean it’s a battle not worth fighting. If righteousness were easy, Jesus wouldn’t have had to die. Praise God that he takes the wretches that we are and clothes us in His righteousness! If we are His, then we are flawless through His blood. But a good indicator of whether you are His or not is whether you fight for His cause… are you fighting the good fight? The battle against the flesh is a good fight. I may get weary along the way, but I will not stop fighting against my flesh or against the Prince of this dark world. This is because I LOVE my Jesus and I’m so grateful for what He did for me.

 

[Thorolfr]

Or they just prefer to live the private aspects of their life discreetly, in private.

I’m sure that’s it. It probably doesn’t have anything to do with the possibility that they might experience hostility or discrimination otherwise.

 

[LongingSoul]

Is there a catechetical reference for sacraments as rewards for the good?
I’m not sure that such a description holds up well when one thinks about the individual sacraments.

When Pope Francis referenced the sacraments as ‘prizes for the perfect’ in EG, he was addressing a faulty Catholic ‘meme’ (to use a modern term). It is an attitude that prevents openness and charity to sinners. Recognising the medicinal nature of the sacraments goes to developing pathways to healing for others. If you had your Ventolin puffer in your pocket and someone beside you was suffering an asthma attack, you wouldn’t think the thought that they were careless enough not to have organised their own medications so they don’t deserve help from you. That highlights the difference between thinking of the sacraments as rewards rather than the real medicinal effects.

 

[Smack]

I’m sure that’s it. It probably doesn’t have anything to do with the possibility that they might experience hostility or discrimination otherwise.

You’re right; they do experience hostility and discrimination. Please forgive those who are supposed to love them, and instead treat them despicably. They know not what they do. :imsorry:

 

[Thorolfr]

That’s not true of all churches (Protestant nor Catholic). I don’t know what Southern Baptist church you went to, but I belong to a group of believers (most of them conservative baptists) that make a HUGE distinction between attraction and acting on the attraction.

Here’s something from baptistnews.com:

While many Christians read the Bible as forbidding homosexual acts, a Southern Baptist scholar argues in a recent article that same-sex orientation itself is sinful.

Denny Burk, professor of biblical studies at Boyce College, the undergraduate arm of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., said in a blog that he worked on an article appearing in the March 2015 Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society for a little over a year.

The article titled Is Homosexual Orientation Sinful? addresses neither those who believe sexual orientation is fixed and no more changeable than the color of one’s eyes nor those who believe homosexuality is a choice and that even acknowledging the existence of a sexual orientation concedes too much to the ways of the world.

Instead Burk targets a group “that is on the ascent right now in conservative circles of the evangelical movement,” who believe the Bible clearly teaches same-sex behavior is sinful but are reluctant to say that same-sex attraction itself is sinful.

Burk, author of the 2013 book What Is the Meaning of Sex?, said while he sympathizes with those who don’t want to add another burden to those who continue to struggle against unwanted same-sex attraction, the Bible does not support the view that a desire for sexual activity with a person of the same sex is morally benign.

“In the terms that Jesus teaches us, it is always sinful to desire something that God forbids,” Burk wrote. “And the very experience of the desire becomes an occasion for repentance.”

Burk termed it “pastoral malpractice” to tell someone feeling sexual attraction for a person of the same sex that they need not repent. “In the moment they feel their sexual desire aroused in such a way — in that moment — they must confess the desire as sinful and turn from it,” he said.

He said a common objection — if a person cannot control whether he or she feels a same-sex attraction, then how can it be sinful? — is not how the Bible speaks about sin.

“There are all manner of predispositions that we are born with and that we experience as unchosen realities,” he said. “Nevertheless, the Bible characterizes such realities as sin: pride, anger, anxiousness, just to name a few. Why would we put same-sex attraction in a different category than those other predispositions that we groan to be delivered from and that we are called to repent of?”

The theological basis for Burk’s argument lies in teaching of St. Augustine, a fourth-century cleric credited with developing the doctrine of original sin. Burk said a touchstone of the doctrine is “concupiscence,” a term derived from Latin that means strong sexual desire or lust.

baptistnews.com/faith/theology/item/29986-prof-says-homosexual-orientation-is-a-sin

 

[Rau]

I’m sure that’s it. It probably doesn’t have anything to do with the possibility that they might experience hostility or discrimination otherwise.

These days, that’s probably pretty right. Makes more sense than trying to lay their difficulties at the foot of a religious denomination as you did previously.

 

[Memaw]

There is a difference?

Procreation means you are co-operating with God to bring forth new life in marriage. In order for a Catholic marriage to be Sacrament, it must be consummated and open to life.
Being “open to children” could mean most anything. Adoption, liking other peoples kids, crazy about your nieces and nephews etc. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

I find it odd that, if consummation was required for a valid marriage (which it is not), Mary and Joseph would have been exempt simply because they were not Catholic at the time. I thought we are talking about a definition of marriage that is universal and pertinent to all cultures, no?

Consummation is a requirement for a Sacramental Marriage in the Catholic Church.If one is found not to be able or willing to consummate the marriage an annulment can be granted. Mary and Joseph’s marriage was an entirely different situation guided by God who is the author of Marriage. We have NO right to question God. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Procreation means you are co-operating with God to bring forth new life in marriage. In order for a Catholic marriage to be Sacrament, it must be consummated and open to life.
Being “open to children” could mean most anything.

Like procreation?

 

[Smack]

Here’s something from baptistnews.com:

baptistnews.com/faith/theology/item/29986-prof-says-homosexual-orientation-is-a-sin

I believe that this is an issue of semantics. Jesus said that if you have lusted after a woman (in your head) than you have committed adultery with her in your heart. If you are looking at a same sex person and lusting after them, you should repent. It’s as fast as, “Lord, I’m having bad thoughts. Please help me and forgive me.” Done. If you see someone and know that if you continue looking that you will start lusting, then you look away, and you’ve just been victorious! No sin there.

A big problem is that many don’t want to renounce it- they want to wear it like a martyr. Following God is more than just attending mass and reciting the Hail Mary- it’s an identity change. And it can be amazing, if you are all in.

 

[at9009]

I am so sorry that people view you that way. I call you courageous. I have gay celibate friends just like you but they keep their battle on the down-low because they are afraid of getting the stares. I think you are so brave. You are making a difference, truly. As believers we are called to be real, not fake, so by being upfront you are drawing out people’s real motivation. Is it to support one another in becoming more Christ-like in our struggles? Or is it to be shiny, plastic people? Thank you for being so transparent. One day I hope we can all be upfront about our struggles (alcoholism, pedofilia, gambling, abusing, and myriads of others) because we’ll be in a supportive community parish (or church) rather than a country club parish. Bless you.

Thanks for your support. However, except for a few select people (which doesn’t include any of my family) I haven’t disclosed my attractions. So, like your friends I keep it on the down low so, I can’t claim to be brave or anything. It’s much easier to be open annoymously online .

I admire your dream about us all being open about our crosses. Everyone needs a Simon to help them with their cross every once in a while.

 

[lileli]

Too many Catholic Children have grown up in hostile and psychologically damaging enviorments due to the error of belief that homosexuality is unnatural and sinful. Our Church Fathers did not have knowledge of science to guide them and therefore did not know that homosexuality has always been present in plenty of complex animal species. I am hopeful that Pope Francis is starting to correct this error and yes the Church has been in error before since it is a Church made of up of imperfect men. I would add women to that sentence but they don’t make policy.

 

[lileli]

The gay person is called to use his sexual capacity in the same manner and circumstances as applies to us all. That his desires lead elsewhere is a challenge, but those desires do not create new and proper circumstances.

You would be right if humans were wired that way and we are not. There are many animals that literally only have sex during certain periods for reproduction. We have to the capacity to have sex ALL the time and there must be a reason for that. Sex is much more than reproduction for humans, dolphins, etc.

 

[Rau]

You would be right if humans were wired that way and we are not. There are many animals that literally only have sex during certain periods for reproduction. We have to the capacity to have sex ALL the time and there must be a reason for that. Sex is much more than reproduction for humans, dolphins, etc.

How an individual man “feels” and “desires” (if that is what you mean by “wired”) has no bearing on the issue, other than perhaps to lessen culpability for certain acts. Examine your body, your sexual organs. Consider the functioning of the male sexual apparatus, its production and emission of semen (carrying his gametes) during sexual stimulation - and ask yourself “what seems to be the proper context for this act”?

That the dominant desires in a person experiencing SSA run contrary to the evident design of the body tells us something is amiss. It does not tell us it is fine to use the body however we desire.

 

[lileli]

How an individual man “feels” and “desires” (if that is what you mean by “wired”) has no bearing on the issue, other than perhaps to lessen culpability for certain acts. Examine your body, your sexual organs. Consider the functioning of the male sexual apparatus, its production and emission of semen (carrying his gametes) during sexual stimulation - and ask yourself “what seems to be the proper context for this act”?

That the dominant desires in a person experiencing SSA run contrary to the evident design of the body tells us something is amiss. It does not tell us it is fine to use the body however we desire.

Again, if humans only had sex for procreation you may have a point but alas humans do not have sex just for procreation. Also, a man feels intense pleasure through his prostate gland etc…but alas that isn’t the point. Yes, I will agree with you that in order to have a baby one must have sex with the opposite sex but one can have sex with a member of the same sex. Again, in most of the animal kingdom sex is heavily regulated and not used for pleasure…humans could have evolved in the same manner but we didn’t.